(02-09-2016 11:28 PM)Mimi Wrote:  For the love of god man.

There is nearly universal agreement that, especially based on the last season and a half, that unless tongs dramatically change, we should likely look another direction.

The divide is in how some decide to express that. Constructively, still discussing games and the like, or nastily, mockingly, and with bashing anyone who essentially, does not bash.

It is a talking point by the ethics to character is anyone who is not nasty as being in the tank for a coach or the like. It is simply a piece of crapola to defend spewing nasty insulting mouth diarrhea.

(02-09-2016 11:30 PM)snowtiger Wrote:  I think I'm lost therefore I am...?

Sorry- I pad spell checker changes a lot of things. Will correct.

The Pastner apologists shrink with every passing day. There will be only 2 or 3 left once he's gone. It's just the way it is on here.

Some think being a good fan is supporting a coach until the ship completely sinks

Others believe in holding a coach and university accountable when they slip.


Different opinions

(02-10-2016 08:37 AM)Hoots Wrote:  

(02-09-2016 11:48 PM)HometownTiger Wrote:  Here's what I got, did I miss anyone?

Roburt Sallie - tried to grad-transfer to Louisville, but didn't graduate from Memphis in time.
Drew Barham - transferred to Gonzaga, 5 ppg & shot 46% from 3 over 2 years.
Pierre Henderson-Niles - left team in Feb. 2010
Jelan Kendrick - transferred to Ole Miss (kicked off), then to Juco, then UNLV - avg. 7 ppg over 2 years.
Antonio Barton - transferred to Tennessee, averaged 8 ppg. 2 apg. on 38% shooting from 3 over 2 years.
Tarik Black - grad-transferred to Kansas - was a reserve. Stats mirror his time at Memphis.
Charles Carmouche - grad-transferred to LSU, 11 ppg. 4 apg. on 37% shooting from 3
Damien Wilson - transferred to Kennesaw State, currently avg. 11 & 5.
Dominic Woodson - transferred to Tennessee, kicked off team.
Nick King - transferred to Alabama, sitting out.
Austin Nichols - transferred to Virginia, sitting out.
Pookie Powell - transferred to La Salle, sitting out.
Kuran Iverson - transferred to Rhode Island, currently avg. 11 & 7
Dominic Magee - transferred to Grand Canyon, currently avg. 9 & 2.


Overall, most didn't really hurt us. He has lost a lot, but the impact was rather limited until we lost this last batch...Nichols, King, and Iverson will all be solid CBB players. This team would be very different if we still had them...MAKES ME SICK TO THINK ABOUT!!!

FWIW....Damien's not listed on the Kennesaw State roster any longer. I saw this a few weeks ago on the ever-popular "Owl Howl," which looks like a rumor mill thing:

Hearing from multiple sources that he is ineligible due to academics. Wilson was a talented player, but in my opinion more trouble than he was worth and not a great influence for the younger players.

Thanks for the update!

(02-10-2016 07:49 AM)KnightLight Wrote:  

(02-09-2016 11:48 PM)HometownTiger Wrote:  Here's what I got, did I miss anyone?

Roburt Sallie - tried to grad-transfer to Louisville, but didn't graduate from Memphis in time.
Drew Barham - transferred to Gonzaga, 5 ppg & shot 46% from 3 over 2 years.
Pierre Henderson-Niles - left team in Feb. 2010
Jelan Kendrick - transferred to Ole Miss (kicked off), then to Juco, then UNLV - avg. 7 ppg over 2 years.
Antonio Barton - transferred to Tennessee, averaged 8 ppg. 2 apg. on 38% shooting from 3 over 2 years.
Tarik Black - grad-transferred to Kansas - was a reserve. Stats mirror his time at Memphis.
Charles Carmouche - grad-transferred to LSU, 11 ppg. 4 apg. on 37% shooting from 3
Damien Wilson - transferred to Kennesaw State, currently avg. 11 & 5.
Dominic Woodson - transferred to Tennessee, kicked off team.
Nick King - transferred to Alabama, sitting out.
Austin Nichols - transferred to Virginia, sitting out.
Pookie Powell - transferred to La Salle, sitting out.
Kuran Iverson - transferred to Rhode Island, currently avg. 11 & 7
Dominic Magee - transferred to Grand Canyon, currently avg. 9 & 2.


Overall, most didn't really hurt us. He has lost a lot, but the impact was rather limited until we lost this last batch...Nichols, King, and Iverson will all be solid CBB players. This team would be very different if we still had them...MAKES ME SICK TO THINK ABOUT!!!

The biggest way all of those mostly unexpected transfers hurt Memphis' program thru the years was lack of continuity...as when a veteran transferred, many times, Pastner had to go for the quick fix to fill in the gap, i.e. JUCO or go after a transfer himself...and that hurt building up quality depth in the program.

Point being...its not whether a transferred player from the program went on to be a star at another program or not...having so many transfers out of a program forced Pastner to take risks on some quick fixes, some that obviously didn't work out.

Obviously, continuity takes a hit when you lose that many players - it does make building a roster with an eye toward the future very difficult.

That being said...

Sallie - replaced by Carmouche. Basically a wash.
Jelan Kendrick - replaced by Adonis Thomas. Net gain.
Pierre - replaced by Ferrokahn Hall. Upgrade.
Carmouche & Barham - replaced by Geron & Damien. I view that as a slight upgrade.
Antonio Barton & Tarik Black - replaced by Michael Dixon & David Pellom. Basically a wash.
Damien Wilson & Dom Woodson - replaced by Calvin Godfrey & a JUCO heavy recruiting class. In hindsight, probably an upgrade.
King, Nichols, Pookie, Kuran, Magee - replaced by last recruiting class and Tarrant. Jury still out, but I'd bet that's a significant downgrade.

As far as replacement value - we've either covered or upgraded on most of the turnover. Except for this last group that transferred - they could ultimately prove to be CJP's undoing

(02-10-2016 11:26 AM)HometownTiger Wrote:  

(02-10-2016 07:49 AM)KnightLight Wrote:  

(02-09-2016 11:48 PM)HometownTiger Wrote:  Here's what I got, did I miss anyone?

Roburt Sallie - tried to grad-transfer to Louisville, but didn't graduate from Memphis in time.
Drew Barham - transferred to Gonzaga, 5 ppg & shot 46% from 3 over 2 years.
Pierre Henderson-Niles - left team in Feb. 2010
Jelan Kendrick - transferred to Ole Miss (kicked off), then to Juco, then UNLV - avg. 7 ppg over 2 years.
Antonio Barton - transferred to Tennessee, averaged 8 ppg. 2 apg. on 38% shooting from 3 over 2 years.
Tarik Black - grad-transferred to Kansas - was a reserve. Stats mirror his time at Memphis.
Charles Carmouche - grad-transferred to LSU, 11 ppg. 4 apg. on 37% shooting from 3
Damien Wilson - transferred to Kennesaw State, currently avg. 11 & 5.
Dominic Woodson - transferred to Tennessee, kicked off team.
Nick King - transferred to Alabama, sitting out.
Austin Nichols - transferred to Virginia, sitting out.
Pookie Powell - transferred to La Salle, sitting out.
Kuran Iverson - transferred to Rhode Island, currently avg. 11 & 7
Dominic Magee - transferred to Grand Canyon, currently avg. 9 & 2.


Overall, most didn't really hurt us. He has lost a lot, but the impact was rather limited until we lost this last batch...Nichols, King, and Iverson will all be solid CBB players. This team would be very different if we still had them...MAKES ME SICK TO THINK ABOUT!!!

The biggest way all of those mostly unexpected transfers hurt Memphis' program thru the years was lack of continuity...as when a veteran transferred, many times, Pastner had to go for the quick fix to fill in the gap, i.e. JUCO or go after a transfer himself...and that hurt building up quality depth in the program.

Point being...its not whether a transferred player from the program went on to be a star at another program or not...having so many transfers out of a program forced Pastner to take risks on some quick fixes, some that obviously didn't work out.

Obviously, continuity takes a hit when you lose that many players - it does make building a roster with an eye toward the future very difficult.

That being said...

Sallie - replaced by Carmouche. Basically a wash.
Jelan Kendrick - replaced by Adonis Thomas. Net gain.
Pierre - replaced by Ferrokahn Hall. Upgrade.
Carmouche & Barham - replaced by Geron & Damien. I view that as a slight upgrade.
Antonio Barton & Tarik Black - replaced by Michael Dixon & David Pellom. Basically a wash.
Damien Wilson & Dom Woodson - replaced by Calvin Godfrey & a JUCO heavy recruiting class. In hindsight, probably an upgrade.
King, Nichols, Pookie, Kuran, Magee - replaced by last recruiting class and Tarrant. Jury still out, but I'd bet that's a significant downgrade.

As far as replacement value - we've either covered or upgraded on most of the turnover. Except for this last group that transferred - they could ultimately prove to be CJP's undoing

Agree, but continuity is a big reason most G5 schools maintain their level of success - they develop guys who play together for 3-4 years and get a chemistry and bond. Places like Xavier and Gonzaga and Butler aren't plugging in 5-7 new recruits every year because guys are transferring out.

(02-10-2016 10:55 AM)HometownTiger Wrote:  

(02-10-2016 08:37 AM)Hoots Wrote:  

(02-09-2016 11:48 PM)HometownTiger Wrote:  Here's what I got, did I miss anyone?

Roburt Sallie - tried to grad-transfer to Louisville, but didn't graduate from Memphis in time.
Drew Barham - transferred to Gonzaga, 5 ppg & shot 46% from 3 over 2 years.
Pierre Henderson-Niles - left team in Feb. 2010
Jelan Kendrick - transferred to Ole Miss (kicked off), then to Juco, then UNLV - avg. 7 ppg over 2 years.
Antonio Barton - transferred to Tennessee, averaged 8 ppg. 2 apg. on 38% shooting from 3 over 2 years.
Tarik Black - grad-transferred to Kansas - was a reserve. Stats mirror his time at Memphis.
Charles Carmouche - grad-transferred to LSU, 11 ppg. 4 apg. on 37% shooting from 3
Damien Wilson - transferred to Kennesaw State, currently avg. 11 & 5.
Dominic Woodson - transferred to Tennessee, kicked off team.
Nick King - transferred to Alabama, sitting out.
Austin Nichols - transferred to Virginia, sitting out.
Pookie Powell - transferred to La Salle, sitting out.
Kuran Iverson - transferred to Rhode Island, currently avg. 11 & 7
Dominic Magee - transferred to Grand Canyon, currently avg. 9 & 2.


Overall, most didn't really hurt us. He has lost a lot, but the impact was rather limited until we lost this last batch...Nichols, King, and Iverson will all be solid CBB players. This team would be very different if we still had them...MAKES ME SICK TO THINK ABOUT!!!

FWIW....Damien's not listed on the Kennesaw State roster any longer. I saw this a few weeks ago on the ever-popular "Owl Howl," which looks like a rumor mill thing:

Hearing from multiple sources that he is ineligible due to academics. Wilson was a talented player, but in my opinion more trouble than he was worth and not a great influence for the younger players.

Thanks for the update!

Most welcome....thanks for all of the info you posted!

(02-10-2016 12:01 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(02-10-2016 11:26 AM)HometownTiger Wrote:  

(02-10-2016 07:49 AM)KnightLight Wrote:  

(02-09-2016 11:48 PM)HometownTiger Wrote:  Here's what I got, did I miss anyone?

Roburt Sallie - tried to grad-transfer to Louisville, but didn't graduate from Memphis in time.
Drew Barham - transferred to Gonzaga, 5 ppg & shot 46% from 3 over 2 years.
Pierre Henderson-Niles - left team in Feb. 2010
Jelan Kendrick - transferred to Ole Miss (kicked off), then to Juco, then UNLV - avg. 7 ppg over 2 years.
Antonio Barton - transferred to Tennessee, averaged 8 ppg. 2 apg. on 38% shooting from 3 over 2 years.
Tarik Black - grad-transferred to Kansas - was a reserve. Stats mirror his time at Memphis.
Charles Carmouche - grad-transferred to LSU, 11 ppg. 4 apg. on 37% shooting from 3
Damien Wilson - transferred to Kennesaw State, currently avg. 11 & 5.
Dominic Woodson - transferred to Tennessee, kicked off team.
Nick King - transferred to Alabama, sitting out.
Austin Nichols - transferred to Virginia, sitting out.
Pookie Powell - transferred to La Salle, sitting out.
Kuran Iverson - transferred to Rhode Island, currently avg. 11 & 7
Dominic Magee - transferred to Grand Canyon, currently avg. 9 & 2.


Overall, most didn't really hurt us. He has lost a lot, but the impact was rather limited until we lost this last batch...Nichols, King, and Iverson will all be solid CBB players. This team would be very different if we still had them...MAKES ME SICK TO THINK ABOUT!!!

The biggest way all of those mostly unexpected transfers hurt Memphis' program thru the years was lack of continuity...as when a veteran transferred, many times, Pastner had to go for the quick fix to fill in the gap, i.e. JUCO or go after a transfer himself...and that hurt building up quality depth in the program.

Point being...its not whether a transferred player from the program went on to be a star at another program or not...having so many transfers out of a program forced Pastner to take risks on some quick fixes, some that obviously didn't work out.

Obviously, continuity takes a hit when you lose that many players - it does make building a roster with an eye toward the future very difficult.

That being said...

Sallie - replaced by Carmouche. Basically a wash.
Jelan Kendrick - replaced by Adonis Thomas. Net gain.
Pierre - replaced by Ferrokahn Hall. Upgrade.
Carmouche & Barham - replaced by Geron & Damien. I view that as a slight upgrade.
Antonio Barton & Tarik Black - replaced by Michael Dixon & David Pellom. Basically a wash.
Damien Wilson & Dom Woodson - replaced by Calvin Godfrey & a JUCO heavy recruiting class. In hindsight, probably an upgrade.
King, Nichols, Pookie, Kuran, Magee - replaced by last recruiting class and Tarrant. Jury still out, but I'd bet that's a significant downgrade.

As far as replacement value - we've either covered or upgraded on most of the turnover. Except for this last group that transferred - they could ultimately prove to be CJP's undoing

Agree, but continuity is a big reason most G5 schools maintain their level of success - they develop guys who play together for 3-4 years and get a chemistry and bond. Places like Xavier and Gonzaga and Butler aren't plugging in 5-7 new recruits every year because guys are transferring out.

And the kids are robots. You can't just plug a new one in and expect everyone to be 'happy'. Burrell and Iverson were friends.

(02-10-2016 12:01 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(02-10-2016 11:26 AM)HometownTiger Wrote:  

(02-10-2016 07:49 AM)KnightLight Wrote:  

(02-09-2016 11:48 PM)HometownTiger Wrote:  Here's what I got, did I miss anyone?

Roburt Sallie - tried to grad-transfer to Louisville, but didn't graduate from Memphis in time.
Drew Barham - transferred to Gonzaga, 5 ppg & shot 46% from 3 over 2 years.
Pierre Henderson-Niles - left team in Feb. 2010
Jelan Kendrick - transferred to Ole Miss (kicked off), then to Juco, then UNLV - avg. 7 ppg over 2 years.
Antonio Barton - transferred to Tennessee, averaged 8 ppg. 2 apg. on 38% shooting from 3 over 2 years.
Tarik Black - grad-transferred to Kansas - was a reserve. Stats mirror his time at Memphis.
Charles Carmouche - grad-transferred to LSU, 11 ppg. 4 apg. on 37% shooting from 3
Damien Wilson - transferred to Kennesaw State, currently avg. 11 & 5.
Dominic Woodson - transferred to Tennessee, kicked off team.
Nick King - transferred to Alabama, sitting out.
Austin Nichols - transferred to Virginia, sitting out.
Pookie Powell - transferred to La Salle, sitting out.
Kuran Iverson - transferred to Rhode Island, currently avg. 11 & 7
Dominic Magee - transferred to Grand Canyon, currently avg. 9 & 2.


Overall, most didn't really hurt us. He has lost a lot, but the impact was rather limited until we lost this last batch...Nichols, King, and Iverson will all be solid CBB players. This team would be very different if we still had them...MAKES ME SICK TO THINK ABOUT!!!

The biggest way all of those mostly unexpected transfers hurt Memphis' program thru the years was lack of continuity...as when a veteran transferred, many times, Pastner had to go for the quick fix to fill in the gap, i.e. JUCO or go after a transfer himself...and that hurt building up quality depth in the program.

Point being...its not whether a transferred player from the program went on to be a star at another program or not...having so many transfers out of a program forced Pastner to take risks on some quick fixes, some that obviously didn't work out.

Obviously, continuity takes a hit when you lose that many players - it does make building a roster with an eye toward the future very difficult.

That being said...

Sallie - replaced by Carmouche. Basically a wash.
Jelan Kendrick - replaced by Adonis Thomas. Net gain.
Pierre - replaced by Ferrokahn Hall. Upgrade.
Carmouche & Barham - replaced by Geron & Damien. I view that as a slight upgrade.
Antonio Barton & Tarik Black - replaced by Michael Dixon & David Pellom. Basically a wash.
Damien Wilson & Dom Woodson - replaced by Calvin Godfrey & a JUCO heavy recruiting class. In hindsight, probably an upgrade.
King, Nichols, Pookie, Kuran, Magee - replaced by last recruiting class and Tarrant. Jury still out, but I'd bet that's a significant downgrade.

As far as replacement value - we've either covered or upgraded on most of the turnover. Except for this last group that transferred - they could ultimately prove to be CJP's undoing

Agree, but continuity is a big reason most G5 schools maintain their level of success - they develop guys who play together for 3-4 years and get a chemistry and bond. Places like Xavier and Gonzaga and Butler aren't plugging in 5-7 new recruits every year because guys are transferring out.

Not arguing that - but they are recruiting a different type of player. And no, I don't mean white...I mean mostly unheralded kids who don't think they are owed anything. But when you do that, you have to have good coaches who develop talent...

(02-10-2016 08:37 AM)Hoots Wrote:  

(02-09-2016 11:48 PM)HometownTiger Wrote:  Here's what I got, did I miss anyone?

Roburt Sallie - tried to grad-transfer to Louisville, but didn't graduate from Memphis in time.
Drew Barham - transferred to Gonzaga, 5 ppg & shot 46% from 3 over 2 years.
Pierre Henderson-Niles - left team in Feb. 2010
Jelan Kendrick - transferred to Ole Miss (kicked off), then to Juco, then UNLV - avg. 7 ppg over 2 years.
Antonio Barton - transferred to Tennessee, averaged 8 ppg. 2 apg. on 38% shooting from 3 over 2 years.
Tarik Black - grad-transferred to Kansas - was a reserve. Stats mirror his time at Memphis.
Charles Carmouche - grad-transferred to LSU, 11 ppg. 4 apg. on 37% shooting from 3
Damien Wilson - transferred to Kennesaw State, currently avg. 11 & 5.
Dominic Woodson - transferred to Tennessee, kicked off team.
Nick King - transferred to Alabama, sitting out.
Austin Nichols - transferred to Virginia, sitting out.
Pookie Powell - transferred to La Salle, sitting out.
Kuran Iverson - transferred to Rhode Island, currently avg. 11 & 7
Dominic Magee - transferred to Grand Canyon, currently avg. 9 & 2.


Overall, most didn't really hurt us. He has lost a lot, but the impact was rather limited until we lost this last batch...Nichols, King, and Iverson will all be solid CBB players. This team would be very different if we still had them...MAKES ME SICK TO THINK ABOUT!!!

FWIW....Damien's not listed on the Kennesaw State roster any longer. I saw this a few weeks ago on the ever-popular "Owl Howl," which looks like a rumor mill thing:

Hearing from multiple sources that he is ineligible due to academics. Wilson was a talented player, but in my opinion more trouble than he was worth and not a great influence for the younger players.

Looks like it was grades that kept him off the team.

(02-10-2016 12:37 PM)HometownTiger Wrote:  Not arguing that - but they are recruiting a different type of player. And no, I don't mean white...I mean mostly unheralded kids who don't think they are owed anything. But when you do that, you have to have good coaches who develop talent...

I agree to a point, but really the only plug and play at DI that really works is with NBA one and done types...and even Cal usually struggles at Kentucky to start each season because of it.

Most DI schools are developing guys over 3-4 years.

Though the grad transfer market has drastically increased available players.

Whether it's your top 50-100 3/4 stars or your underrecruited 2/3 stars, you need continuity and chemistry to keep a program afloat at a certain level.

(02-10-2016 12:46 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(02-10-2016 12:37 PM)HometownTiger Wrote:  Not arguing that - but they are recruiting a different type of player. And no, I don't mean white...I mean mostly unheralded kids who don't think they are owed anything. But when you do that, you have to have good coaches who develop talent...

I agree to a point, but really the only plug and play at DI that really works is with NBA one and done types...and even Cal usually struggles at Kentucky to start each season because of it.

Most DI schools are developing guys over 3-4 years.

Though the grad transfer market has drastically increased available players.

Whether it's your top 50-100 3/4 stars or your underrecruited 2/3 stars, you need continuity and chemistry to keep a program afloat at a certain level.

We agree - continuity is essential to BUILDING a consistent program.

But when players come into a program and expect to play right away & don't want to accept their limited role or battle for a position, they transfer. It starts at the HS level and follows the kid through college often times. It's hard to build if you're constantly recruiting players that think they are owed something...& that's not just at Memphis.