(02-08-2016 01:44 PM)Downtown Tiger Wrote:  

(02-08-2016 01:10 PM)Tigerx3 Wrote:  

(02-08-2016 10:09 AM)tiger2000 Wrote:  

(02-08-2016 09:29 AM)Strat57 Wrote:  

(02-07-2016 09:51 PM)Tigerx3 Wrote:  You know shooting a dead man is pointless. No matter how hard you try you can't make him anymore dead.

Great analogy.

There's no guarantee he ain't gonna to be the coach next year.

That's an administrative decision that will be made based on finances. No matter how many times people claim there is money to pay out a $10.6 million contract it's nobody on this board that impacts that decision. Nobody. No more than 5-6 people are involved in that decision.

Everybody gets the state of the program and how unhappy everybody is and the inevitable will happen. It didn't work out like we hoped and planned but remember what every coaching hire we have made has looked like.

We have been turned down by all of the big names we have chased. We often had tried to go cheap. We have ended up with some bad ones from the get-go or some that started ok and then tanked.


Lets start with Bartow. We had a great one and would not pay him. We could have easily kept him with a decent raise but he left.

We gave the job to Yates who played an awful schedule. Fun to watch on channel 10 I admit but He was not a good coach. Ran up wins vs buy opponents. Made one NCAA and 2 NITs but did not win a tourney game in five years and did not go anywhere his last two. FIRED

We could not find a good replacement. Got turned down by a bunch of names. Then we talked to VCU about hiring Dana Kirk. We were warned it was bad idea. It was. He won and won big but at what price. We went through one of the worst academic scandals in the history of the NCAA, had a coach with a bad gambling problem and was reckless with buying players. Remember what happened? I do. I was working there and tried to warn them of the academic issues. I presented a remedy and Kirk refused anyone access and our weak AD did nothing. FIRED

We hired Finch. We had to hire Finch. He deserved to be given a shot. He inherited NCAA sanctions, Banned first year, Six NCAAs including an Elite 8 and a Sweet 16 plus 3 NITs in 11 years and three conferences. He benefited from great Memphis talent but toward the end (many reasons) it all went south. The local talent had dried up and we went after jucos (sound familiar). FIRED

Yea! we hired Tick Price after being turned down by at least 5 name coaches. One of the biggest surprise hires and worst. FIRED after two years. Man oh man was my neighbor a poor coach and even worse human being.

Kept Johnny Jones one year essentially as an interim. Fired (or not retained). Good guy but clearly not ready.

Got turned down by a bunch of names and then turned to a tainted NCAA violator who had a Final Four expunged and failed pro coaching experience. He needed a place to go to redeem himself. He could recruit. He was a decent coach. He was a great salesman. He was connected and got players we couldn't touch before or after. In 9 years he reached unprecedented heights (but got a lot of critique that he couldn't win the big games.) He did to us what he did to UMASS then fled like a carpetbagger to Ky. Note: first since Bartow not to get fired.

We tried a lot of names. We offered a lot of money but no takers. It was an embarrassment of monumental proportions. So in desperation they gave the job to Josh. A good man who had a reputation of being a tireless worker and great recruiter. He was on his way out to town. He wasn't left with much to work with. In his first five years he equaled or exceeded Cals first five years by most measurements.

He is in year 7. Won a lot of games just not many big games. High energy, high character, sort of different. Last year and this things have gone south. Even his best years had the can't win the big game cloud. The big problem is the big contract. He will be fired its just a matter of when.

We pay coaches a lot of money to first win and then to go away in most cases. Startiing with hiring Bartow in 1970 we have had 8 coaches. We had three losing seasons between Yates and Kirk that were pretty bad. We had four years of Finch to Price to Jones that was awful and hard to watch.

Bartow went to the championship game after his first two mediocre years.
Kirk started a great five year run (Thank you Lee, Turner and company)after a couple of losing seasons.
Finch was a success by most measurements and had two great years before things went bad.
Cal had five OK years before he got the Laurenburg train rolling and then had four a Duke, KY, Kansas, NC type run.

In all of the good and bad we have seen we have always seen the good come back. We will again. I don't like the public tar & feathering Josh is getting. I like him but he has lost the city and the program. He won't be given the chance to recover regardless of whether you think he can or can't. Its a different world in recruiting and its a different kind of fan-base.

Our admins gave him the contract and have retained him each year. Josh gives us the best he has even with some flaws, I'm convinced of that. His main mistake was saying yes when RC chased him down as he was leaving town. Whoever we had hired that was willing to follow Cals big nuke job would have been fired. I have no doubt of that.

The question is, can we get anyone to take the job when our history shows that it has been very problematic?

So seven years is a little above average for a coach at the U of M.

Curlin 23 years with one fielding no team due to WWII.
Tarry 3
Lambert 5
Vannatta 6
Ehlers 4
IBA 4
Bartow 4
Yates 5
Kirk 7
Finch 11
Price 2
Jones 1
Cal 9
Pastner 7-? the fourth longest tenure in Tiger coaching history

That is the biggest bunch of BS that I've ever read in my life. Stick to what your good at.

Truth hurts

Were mugshots of Dana ever published?

Cal being Italian and all, always had a "buffer".

(02-08-2016 01:49 PM)BuccTiger Wrote:  

(02-08-2016 01:44 PM)Downtown Tiger Wrote:  

(02-08-2016 01:10 PM)Tigerx3 Wrote:  

(02-08-2016 10:09 AM)tiger2000 Wrote:  

(02-08-2016 09:29 AM)Strat57 Wrote:  Great analogy.

There's no guarantee he ain't gonna to be the coach next year.

That's an administrative decision that will be made based on finances. No matter how many times people claim there is money to pay out a $10.6 million contract it's nobody on this board that impacts that decision. Nobody. No more than 5-6 people are involved in that decision.

Everybody gets the state of the program and how unhappy everybody is and the inevitable will happen. It didn't work out like we hoped and planned but remember what every coaching hire we have made has looked like.

We have been turned down by all of the big names we have chased. We often had tried to go cheap. We have ended up with some bad ones from the get-go or some that started ok and then tanked.


Lets start with Bartow. We had a great one and would not pay him. We could have easily kept him with a decent raise but he left.

We gave the job to Yates who played an awful schedule. Fun to watch on channel 10 I admit but He was not a good coach. Ran up wins vs buy opponents. Made one NCAA and 2 NITs but did not win a tourney game in five years and did not go anywhere his last two. FIRED

We could not find a good replacement. Got turned down by a bunch of names. Then we talked to VCU about hiring Dana Kirk. We were warned it was bad idea. It was. He won and won big but at what price. We went through one of the worst academic scandals in the history of the NCAA, had a coach with a bad gambling problem and was reckless with buying players. Remember what happened? I do. I was working there and tried to warn them of the academic issues. I presented a remedy and Kirk refused anyone access and our weak AD did nothing. FIRED

We hired Finch. We had to hire Finch. He deserved to be given a shot. He inherited NCAA sanctions, Banned first year, Six NCAAs including an Elite 8 and a Sweet 16 plus 3 NITs in 11 years and three conferences. He benefited from great Memphis talent but toward the end (many reasons) it all went south. The local talent had dried up and we went after jucos (sound familiar). FIRED

Yea! we hired Tick Price after being turned down by at least 5 name coaches. One of the biggest surprise hires and worst. FIRED after two years. Man oh man was my neighbor a poor coach and even worse human being.

Kept Johnny Jones one year essentially as an interim. Fired (or not retained). Good guy but clearly not ready.

Got turned down by a bunch of names and then turned to a tainted NCAA violator who had a Final Four expunged and failed pro coaching experience. He needed a place to go to redeem himself. He could recruit. He was a decent coach. He was a great salesman. He was connected and got players we couldn't touch before or after. In 9 years he reached unprecedented heights (but got a lot of critique that he couldn't win the big games.) He did to us what he did to UMASS then fled like a carpetbagger to Ky. Note: first since Bartow not to get fired.

We tried a lot of names. We offered a lot of money but no takers. It was an embarrassment of monumental proportions. So in desperation they gave the job to Josh. A good man who had a reputation of being a tireless worker and great recruiter. He was on his way out to town. He wasn't left with much to work with. In his first five years he equaled or exceeded Cals first five years by most measurements.

He is in year 7. Won a lot of games just not many big games. High energy, high character, sort of different. Last year and this things have gone south. Even his best years had the can't win the big game cloud. The big problem is the big contract. He will be fired its just a matter of when.

We pay coaches a lot of money to first win and then to go away in most cases. Startiing with hiring Bartow in 1970 we have had 8 coaches. We had three losing seasons between Yates and Kirk that were pretty bad. We had four years of Finch to Price to Jones that was awful and hard to watch.

Bartow went to the championship game after his first two mediocre years.
Kirk started a great five year run (Thank you Lee, Turner and company)after a couple of losing seasons.
Finch was a success by most measurements and had two great years before things went bad.
Cal had five OK years before he got the Laurenburg train rolling and then had four a Duke, KY, Kansas, NC type run.

In all of the good and bad we have seen we have always seen the good come back. We will again. I don't like the public tar & feathering Josh is getting. I like him but he has lost the city and the program. He won't be given the chance to recover regardless of whether you think he can or can't. Its a different world in recruiting and its a different kind of fan-base.

Our admins gave him the contract and have retained him each year. Josh gives us the best he has even with some flaws, I'm convinced of that. His main mistake was saying yes when RC chased him down as he was leaving town. Whoever we had hired that was willing to follow Cals big nuke job would have been fired. I have no doubt of that.

The question is, can we get anyone to take the job when our history shows that it has been very problematic?

So seven years is a little above average for a coach at the U of M.

Curlin 23 years with one fielding no team due to WWII.
Tarry 3
Lambert 5
Vannatta 6
Ehlers 4
IBA 4
Bartow 4
Yates 5
Kirk 7
Finch 11
Price 2
Jones 1
Cal 9
Pastner 7-? the fourth longest tenure in Tiger coaching history

That is the biggest bunch of BS that I've ever read in my life. Stick to what your good at.

Truth hurts

We're mugshots of Dana ever published?

Cal being Italian and all, always had a "buffer".

I just love how our so called good educated fans will stoop to any length to justify an agenda for an inept coach. The only truth in that "novel" is the comparison between Pastner and Wayne Yates. Earily similar. Except for the ridiculous contract.

(02-08-2016 01:24 PM)BuccTiger Wrote:  

(02-08-2016 01:10 PM)Tigerx3 Wrote:  

(02-08-2016 10:09 AM)tiger2000 Wrote:  

(02-08-2016 09:29 AM)Strat57 Wrote:  

(02-07-2016 09:51 PM)Tigerx3 Wrote:  You know shooting a dead man is pointless. No matter how hard you try you can't make him anymore dead.

Great analogy.

There's no guarantee he ain't gonna to be the coach next year.

That's an administrative decision that will be made based on finances. No matter how many times people claim there is money to pay out a $10.6 million contract it's nobody on this board that impacts that decision. Nobody. No more than 5-6 people are involved in that decision.

Everybody gets the state of the program and how unhappy everybody is and the inevitable will happen. It didn't work out like we hoped and planned but remember what every coaching hire we have made has looked like.

We have been turned down by all of the big names we have chased. We often had tried to go cheap. We have ended up with some bad ones from the get-go or some that started ok and then tanked.


Lets start with Bartow. We had a great one and would not pay him. We could have easily kept him with a decent raise but he left.

We gave the job to Yates who played an awful schedule. Fun to watch on channel 10 I admit but He was not a good coach. Ran up wins vs buy opponents. Made one NCAA and 2 NITs but did not win a tourney game in five years and did not go anywhere his last two. FIRED

We could not find a good replacement. Got turned down by a bunch of names. Then we talked to VCU about hiring Dana Kirk. We were warned it was bad idea. It was. He won and won big but at what price. We went through one of the worst academic scandals in the history of the NCAA, had a coach with a bad gambling problem and was reckless with buying players. Remember what happened? I do. I was working there and tried to warn them of the academic issues. I presented a remedy and Kirk refused anyone access and our weak AD did nothing. FIRED

We hired Finch. We had to hire Finch. He deserved to be given a shot. He inherited NCAA sanctions, Banned first year, Six NCAAs including an Elite 8 and a Sweet 16 plus 3 NITs in 11 years and three conferences. He benefited from great Memphis talent but toward the end (many reasons) it all went south. The local talent had dried up and we went after jucos (sound familiar). FIRED

Yea! we hired Tick Price after being turned down by at least 5 name coaches. One of the biggest surprise hires and worst. FIRED after two years. Man oh man was my neighbor a poor coach and even worse human being.

Kept Johnny Jones one year essentially as an interim. Fired (or not retained). Good guy but clearly not ready.

Got turned down by a bunch of names and then turned to a tainted NCAA violator who had a Final Four expunged and failed pro coaching experience. He needed a place to go to redeem himself. He could recruit. He was a decent coach. He was a great salesman. He was connected and got players we couldn't touch before or after. In 9 years he reached unprecedented heights (but got a lot of critique that he couldn't win the big games.) He did to us what he did to UMASS then fled like a carpetbagger to Ky. Note: first since Bartow not to get fired.

We tried a lot of names. We offered a lot of money but no takers. It was an embarrassment of monumental proportions. So in desperation they gave the job to Josh. A good man who had a reputation of being a tireless worker and great recruiter. He was on his way out to town. He wasn't left with much to work with. In his first five years he equaled or exceeded Cals first five years by most measurements.

He is in year 7. Won a lot of games just not many big games. High energy, high character, sort of different. Last year and this things have gone south. Even his best years had the can't win the big game cloud. The big problem is the big contract. He will be fired its just a matter of when.

We pay coaches a lot of money to first win and then to go away in most cases. Startiing with hiring Bartow in 1970 we have had 8 coaches. We had three losing seasons between Yates and Kirk that were pretty bad. We had four years of Finch to Price to Jones that was awful and hard to watch.

Bartow went to the championship game after his first two mediocre years.
Kirk started a great five year run (Thank you Lee, Turner and company)after a couple of losing seasons.
Finch was a success by most measurements and had two great years before things went bad.
Cal had five OK years before he got the Laurenburg train rolling and then had four a Duke, KY, Kansas, NC type run.

In all of the good and bad we have seen we have always seen the good come back. We will again. I don't like the public tar & feathering Josh is getting. I like him but he has lost the city and the program. He won't be given the chance to recover regardless of whether you think he can or can't. Its a different world in recruiting and its a different kind of fan-base.

Our admins gave him the contract and have retained him each year. Josh gives us the best he has even with some flaws, I'm convinced of that. His main mistake was saying yes when RC chased him down as he was leaving town. Whoever we had hired that was willing to follow Cals big nuke job would have been fired. I have no doubt of that.

The question is, can we get anyone to take the job when our history shows that it has been very problematic?

So seven years is a little above average for a coach at the U of M.

Curlin 23 years with one fielding no team due to WWII.
Tarry 3
Lambert 5
Vannatta 6
Ehlers 4
IBA 4
Bartow 4
Yates 5
Kirk 7
Finch 11
Price 2
Jones 1
Cal 9
Pastner 7-? the fourth longest tenure in Tiger coaching history

Excellent post.

Solid, well thought out post. Not sure you can say everyone would have failed following Cal.

(02-08-2016 01:54 PM)Halfcourt Wrote:  

(02-08-2016 01:24 PM)BuccTiger Wrote:  

(02-08-2016 01:10 PM)Tigerx3 Wrote:  

(02-08-2016 10:09 AM)tiger2000 Wrote:  

(02-08-2016 09:29 AM)Strat57 Wrote:  Great analogy.

There's no guarantee he ain't gonna to be the coach next year.

That's an administrative decision that will be made based on finances. No matter how many times people claim there is money to pay out a $10.6 million contract it's nobody on this board that impacts that decision. Nobody. No more than 5-6 people are involved in that decision.

Everybody gets the state of the program and how unhappy everybody is and the inevitable will happen. It didn't work out like we hoped and planned but remember what every coaching hire we have made has looked like.

We have been turned down by all of the big names we have chased. We often had tried to go cheap. We have ended up with some bad ones from the get-go or some that started ok and then tanked.


Lets start with Bartow. We had a great one and would not pay him. We could have easily kept him with a decent raise but he left.

We gave the job to Yates who played an awful schedule. Fun to watch on channel 10 I admit but He was not a good coach. Ran up wins vs buy opponents. Made one NCAA and 2 NITs but did not win a tourney game in five years and did not go anywhere his last two. FIRED

We could not find a good replacement. Got turned down by a bunch of names. Then we talked to VCU about hiring Dana Kirk. We were warned it was bad idea. It was. He won and won big but at what price. We went through one of the worst academic scandals in the history of the NCAA, had a coach with a bad gambling problem and was reckless with buying players. Remember what happened? I do. I was working there and tried to warn them of the academic issues. I presented a remedy and Kirk refused anyone access and our weak AD did nothing. FIRED

We hired Finch. We had to hire Finch. He deserved to be given a shot. He inherited NCAA sanctions, Banned first year, Six NCAAs including an Elite 8 and a Sweet 16 plus 3 NITs in 11 years and three conferences. He benefited from great Memphis talent but toward the end (many reasons) it all went south. The local talent had dried up and we went after jucos (sound familiar). FIRED

Yea! we hired Tick Price after being turned down by at least 5 name coaches. One of the biggest surprise hires and worst. FIRED after two years. Man oh man was my neighbor a poor coach and even worse human being.

Kept Johnny Jones one year essentially as an interim. Fired (or not retained). Good guy but clearly not ready.

Got turned down by a bunch of names and then turned to a tainted NCAA violator who had a Final Four expunged and failed pro coaching experience. He needed a place to go to redeem himself. He could recruit. He was a decent coach. He was a great salesman. He was connected and got players we couldn't touch before or after. In 9 years he reached unprecedented heights (but got a lot of critique that he couldn't win the big games.) He did to us what he did to UMASS then fled like a carpetbagger to Ky. Note: first since Bartow not to get fired.

We tried a lot of names. We offered a lot of money but no takers. It was an embarrassment of monumental proportions. So in desperation they gave the job to Josh. A good man who had a reputation of being a tireless worker and great recruiter. He was on his way out to town. He wasn't left with much to work with. In his first five years he equaled or exceeded Cals first five years by most measurements.

He is in year 7. Won a lot of games just not many big games. High energy, high character, sort of different. Last year and this things have gone south. Even his best years had the can't win the big game cloud. The big problem is the big contract. He will be fired its just a matter of when.

We pay coaches a lot of money to first win and then to go away in most cases. Startiing with hiring Bartow in 1970 we have had 8 coaches. We had three losing seasons between Yates and Kirk that were pretty bad. We had four years of Finch to Price to Jones that was awful and hard to watch.

Bartow went to the championship game after his first two mediocre years.
Kirk started a great five year run (Thank you Lee, Turner and company)after a couple of losing seasons.
Finch was a success by most measurements and had two great years before things went bad.
Cal had five OK years before he got the Laurenburg train rolling and then had four a Duke, KY, Kansas, NC type run.

In all of the good and bad we have seen we have always seen the good come back. We will again. I don't like the public tar & feathering Josh is getting. I like him but he has lost the city and the program. He won't be given the chance to recover regardless of whether you think he can or can't. Its a different world in recruiting and its a different kind of fan-base.

Our admins gave him the contract and have retained him each year. Josh gives us the best he has even with some flaws, I'm convinced of that. His main mistake was saying yes when RC chased him down as he was leaving town. Whoever we had hired that was willing to follow Cals big nuke job would have been fired. I have no doubt of that.

The question is, can we get anyone to take the job when our history shows that it has been very problematic?

So seven years is a little above average for a coach at the U of M.

Curlin 23 years with one fielding no team due to WWII.
Tarry 3
Lambert 5
Vannatta 6
Ehlers 4
IBA 4
Bartow 4
Yates 5
Kirk 7
Finch 11
Price 2
Jones 1
Cal 9
Pastner 7-? the fourth longest tenure in Tiger coaching history

Excellent post.

Solid, well thought out post. Not sure you can say everyone would have failed following Cal.

I don't think everyone would have, but most of the coaches we could have got to take the job would have found themselves right where Pastner is. Unless the bagman cometh.

(02-08-2016 01:58 PM)BuccTiger Wrote:  

(02-08-2016 01:54 PM)Halfcourt Wrote:  

(02-08-2016 01:24 PM)BuccTiger Wrote:  

(02-08-2016 01:10 PM)Tigerx3 Wrote:  

(02-08-2016 10:09 AM)tiger2000 Wrote:  There's no guarantee he ain't gonna to be the coach next year.

That's an administrative decision that will be made based on finances. No matter how many times people claim there is money to pay out a $10.6 million contract it's nobody on this board that impacts that decision. Nobody. No more than 5-6 people are involved in that decision.

Everybody gets the state of the program and how unhappy everybody is and the inevitable will happen. It didn't work out like we hoped and planned but remember what every coaching hire we have made has looked like.

We have been turned down by all of the big names we have chased. We often had tried to go cheap. We have ended up with some bad ones from the get-go or some that started ok and then tanked.


Lets start with Bartow. We had a great one and would not pay him. We could have easily kept him with a decent raise but he left.

We gave the job to Yates who played an awful schedule. Fun to watch on channel 10 I admit but He was not a good coach. Ran up wins vs buy opponents. Made one NCAA and 2 NITs but did not win a tourney game in five years and did not go anywhere his last two. FIRED

We could not find a good replacement. Got turned down by a bunch of names. Then we talked to VCU about hiring Dana Kirk. We were warned it was bad idea. It was. He won and won big but at what price. We went through one of the worst academic scandals in the history of the NCAA, had a coach with a bad gambling problem and was reckless with buying players. Remember what happened? I do. I was working there and tried to warn them of the academic issues. I presented a remedy and Kirk refused anyone access and our weak AD did nothing. FIRED

We hired Finch. We had to hire Finch. He deserved to be given a shot. He inherited NCAA sanctions, Banned first year, Six NCAAs including an Elite 8 and a Sweet 16 plus 3 NITs in 11 years and three conferences. He benefited from great Memphis talent but toward the end (many reasons) it all went south. The local talent had dried up and we went after jucos (sound familiar). FIRED

Yea! we hired Tick Price after being turned down by at least 5 name coaches. One of the biggest surprise hires and worst. FIRED after two years. Man oh man was my neighbor a poor coach and even worse human being.

Kept Johnny Jones one year essentially as an interim. Fired (or not retained). Good guy but clearly not ready.

Got turned down by a bunch of names and then turned to a tainted NCAA violator who had a Final Four expunged and failed pro coaching experience. He needed a place to go to redeem himself. He could recruit. He was a decent coach. He was a great salesman. He was connected and got players we couldn't touch before or after. In 9 years he reached unprecedented heights (but got a lot of critique that he couldn't win the big games.) He did to us what he did to UMASS then fled like a carpetbagger to Ky. Note: first since Bartow not to get fired.

We tried a lot of names. We offered a lot of money but no takers. It was an embarrassment of monumental proportions. So in desperation they gave the job to Josh. A good man who had a reputation of being a tireless worker and great recruiter. He was on his way out to town. He wasn't left with much to work with. In his first five years he equaled or exceeded Cals first five years by most measurements.

He is in year 7. Won a lot of games just not many big games. High energy, high character, sort of different. Last year and this things have gone south. Even his best years had the can't win the big game cloud. The big problem is the big contract. He will be fired its just a matter of when.

We pay coaches a lot of money to first win and then to go away in most cases. Startiing with hiring Bartow in 1970 we have had 8 coaches. We had three losing seasons between Yates and Kirk that were pretty bad. We had four years of Finch to Price to Jones that was awful and hard to watch.

Bartow went to the championship game after his first two mediocre years.
Kirk started a great five year run (Thank you Lee, Turner and company)after a couple of losing seasons.
Finch was a success by most measurements and had two great years before things went bad.
Cal had five OK years before he got the Laurenburg train rolling and then had four a Duke, KY, Kansas, NC type run.

In all of the good and bad we have seen we have always seen the good come back. We will again. I don't like the public tar & feathering Josh is getting. I like him but he has lost the city and the program. He won't be given the chance to recover regardless of whether you think he can or can't. Its a different world in recruiting and its a different kind of fan-base.

Our admins gave him the contract and have retained him each year. Josh gives us the best he has even with some flaws, I'm convinced of that. His main mistake was saying yes when RC chased him down as he was leaving town. Whoever we had hired that was willing to follow Cals big nuke job would have been fired. I have no doubt of that.

The question is, can we get anyone to take the job when our history shows that it has been very problematic?

So seven years is a little above average for a coach at the U of M.

Curlin 23 years with one fielding no team due to WWII.
Tarry 3
Lambert 5
Vannatta 6
Ehlers 4
IBA 4
Bartow 4
Yates 5
Kirk 7
Finch 11
Price 2
Jones 1
Cal 9
Pastner 7-? the fourth longest tenure in Tiger coaching history

Excellent post.

Solid, well thought out post. Not sure you can say everyone would have failed following Cal.

I don't think everyone would have, but most of the coaches we could have got to take the job would have found themselves right where Pastner is. Unless the bagman cometh.

Any solid coach could have done much better than Pastner. Pastner had some top 10 recruiting classes and he did nothing with them other than winning buy & CUSA games. Any important games against a team with a pulse he lost….and kept losing year after year….and is still losing them.

The deal is not only is he not a good coach, he’s one of the worst we've ever had.

(02-08-2016 02:28 PM)BealeStreetTiger Wrote:  

(02-08-2016 01:58 PM)BuccTiger Wrote:  

(02-08-2016 01:54 PM)Halfcourt Wrote:  

(02-08-2016 01:24 PM)BuccTiger Wrote:  

(02-08-2016 01:10 PM)Tigerx3 Wrote:  That's an administrative decision that will be made based on finances. No matter how many times people claim there is money to pay out a $10.6 million contract it's nobody on this board that impacts that decision. Nobody. No more than 5-6 people are involved in that decision.

Everybody gets the state of the program and how unhappy everybody is and the inevitable will happen. It didn't work out like we hoped and planned but remember what every coaching hire we have made has looked like.

We have been turned down by all of the big names we have chased. We often had tried to go cheap. We have ended up with some bad ones from the get-go or some that started ok and then tanked.


Lets start with Bartow. We had a great one and would not pay him. We could have easily kept him with a decent raise but he left.

We gave the job to Yates who played an awful schedule. Fun to watch on channel 10 I admit but He was not a good coach. Ran up wins vs buy opponents. Made one NCAA and 2 NITs but did not win a tourney game in five years and did not go anywhere his last two. FIRED

We could not find a good replacement. Got turned down by a bunch of names. Then we talked to VCU about hiring Dana Kirk. We were warned it was bad idea. It was. He won and won big but at what price. We went through one of the worst academic scandals in the history of the NCAA, had a coach with a bad gambling problem and was reckless with buying players. Remember what happened? I do. I was working there and tried to warn them of the academic issues. I presented a remedy and Kirk refused anyone access and our weak AD did nothing. FIRED

We hired Finch. We had to hire Finch. He deserved to be given a shot. He inherited NCAA sanctions, Banned first year, Six NCAAs including an Elite 8 and a Sweet 16 plus 3 NITs in 11 years and three conferences. He benefited from great Memphis talent but toward the end (many reasons) it all went south. The local talent had dried up and we went after jucos (sound familiar). FIRED

Yea! we hired Tick Price after being turned down by at least 5 name coaches. One of the biggest surprise hires and worst. FIRED after two years. Man oh man was my neighbor a poor coach and even worse human being.

Kept Johnny Jones one year essentially as an interim. Fired (or not retained). Good guy but clearly not ready.

Got turned down by a bunch of names and then turned to a tainted NCAA violator who had a Final Four expunged and failed pro coaching experience. He needed a place to go to redeem himself. He could recruit. He was a decent coach. He was a great salesman. He was connected and got players we couldn't touch before or after. In 9 years he reached unprecedented heights (but got a lot of critique that he couldn't win the big games.) He did to us what he did to UMASS then fled like a carpetbagger to Ky. Note: first since Bartow not to get fired.

We tried a lot of names. We offered a lot of money but no takers. It was an embarrassment of monumental proportions. So in desperation they gave the job to Josh. A good man who had a reputation of being a tireless worker and great recruiter. He was on his way out to town. He wasn't left with much to work with. In his first five years he equaled or exceeded Cals first five years by most measurements.

He is in year 7. Won a lot of games just not many big games. High energy, high character, sort of different. Last year and this things have gone south. Even his best years had the can't win the big game cloud. The big problem is the big contract. He will be fired its just a matter of when.

We pay coaches a lot of money to first win and then to go away in most cases. Startiing with hiring Bartow in 1970 we have had 8 coaches. We had three losing seasons between Yates and Kirk that were pretty bad. We had four years of Finch to Price to Jones that was awful and hard to watch.

Bartow went to the championship game after his first two mediocre years.
Kirk started a great five year run (Thank you Lee, Turner and company)after a couple of losing seasons.
Finch was a success by most measurements and had two great years before things went bad.
Cal had five OK years before he got the Laurenburg train rolling and then had four a Duke, KY, Kansas, NC type run.

In all of the good and bad we have seen we have always seen the good come back. We will again. I don't like the public tar & feathering Josh is getting. I like him but he has lost the city and the program. He won't be given the chance to recover regardless of whether you think he can or can't. Its a different world in recruiting and its a different kind of fan-base.

Our admins gave him the contract and have retained him each year. Josh gives us the best he has even with some flaws, I'm convinced of that. His main mistake was saying yes when RC chased him down as he was leaving town. Whoever we had hired that was willing to follow Cals big nuke job would have been fired. I have no doubt of that.

The question is, can we get anyone to take the job when our history shows that it has been very problematic?

So seven years is a little above average for a coach at the U of M.

Curlin 23 years with one fielding no team due to WWII.
Tarry 3
Lambert 5
Vannatta 6
Ehlers 4
IBA 4
Bartow 4
Yates 5
Kirk 7
Finch 11
Price 2
Jones 1
Cal 9
Pastner 7-? the fourth longest tenure in Tiger coaching history

Excellent post.

Solid, well thought out post. Not sure you can say everyone would have failed following Cal.

I don't think everyone would have, but most of the coaches we could have got to take the job would have found themselves right where Pastner is. Unless the bagman cometh.

Any solid coach could have done much better than Pastner. Pastner had some top 10 recruiting classes and he did nothing with them other than winning buy & CUSA games. Any important games against a team with a pulse he lost….and kept losing year after year….and is still losing them.

The deal is not only is he not a good coach, he’s one of the worst we've ever had.

He may very well be, but the history of the job is one where Bartow is the only coach who has had success who didn't bring the law down on us who wasn't eventually fired.

(02-08-2016 02:40 PM)BuccTiger Wrote:  

(02-08-2016 02:28 PM)BealeStreetTiger Wrote:  

(02-08-2016 01:58 PM)BuccTiger Wrote:  

(02-08-2016 01:54 PM)Halfcourt Wrote:  

(02-08-2016 01:24 PM)BuccTiger Wrote:  Excellent post.

Solid, well thought out post. Not sure you can say everyone would have failed following Cal.

I don't think everyone would have, but most of the coaches we could have got to take the job would have found themselves right where Pastner is. Unless the bagman cometh.

Any solid coach could have done much better than Pastner. Pastner had some top 10 recruiting classes and he did nothing with them other than winning buy & CUSA games. Any important games against a team with a pulse he lost….and kept losing year after year….and is still losing them.

The deal is not only is he not a good coach, he’s one of the worst we've ever had.

He may very well be, but the history of the job is one where Bartow is the only coach who has had success who didn't bring the law down on us who wasn't eventually fired.

Bartow is only part of the story as Larry Finch broke tradition and accepted a scholarship to Memphis State. When this happened other top area players decided to join him to form a very good team. The icing is Bartow was also a good coach and now had the tools to win.

If we could have hired a good decent coach after Cal left we wouldn’t be in this current mess. Josh could have done it too but IMHO the money caused him to come down with a case of the Big Head.

Moe Iba signed Finch, not Bartow, and he got fired.

I just hate that the U of M is known as bagman U.

Maybe little bagman U, got to give Kentucky it's props

Pastner is gone, either in a month or within 3 years. I don't think he will call or maybe even has time for the bagman? The Lawson's aren't mature enough yet to carry a team and realistically there needs to be another top recruit in the mix to have a chance to win sweet 16 or better, we just don't have enough mature talent to win at that level. Bobby Knight, Josh is not.

Larry Brown had to cheat to get it going at SMU as good as he is. If Cal hadn't took recruits with him to Kentucky, they would already be in trouble. It is just a matter of time before Auburn is in trouble, unless Pearl can find a quality bagman with a "buffer".

(02-08-2016 01:10 PM)Tigerx3 Wrote:  

(02-08-2016 10:09 AM)tiger2000 Wrote:  

(02-08-2016 09:29 AM)Strat57 Wrote:  

(02-07-2016 09:51 PM)Tigerx3 Wrote:  

(02-07-2016 08:32 AM)BIGDTiger Wrote:  One bad loss, blowout loss & transfer at a time. One freaking win against a bubble team, in which you had a 15 point lead in the 2nd half and you almost lost in the end, is not going to fool any knowledgeable fan base.

You know shooting a dead man is pointless. No matter how hard you try you can't make him anymore dead.

Great analogy.

There's no guarantee he ain't gonna to be the coach next year.

That's an administrative decision that will be made based on finances. No matter how many times people claim there is money to pay out a $10.6 million contract it's nobody on this board that impacts that decision. Nobody. No more than 5-6 people are involved in that decision.

Everybody gets the state of the program and how unhappy everybody is and the inevitable will happen. It didn't work out like we hoped and planned but remember what every coaching hire we have made has looked like.

We have been turned down by all of the big names we have chased. We often had tried to go cheap. We have ended up with some bad ones from the get-go or some that started ok and then tanked.


Lets start with Bartow. We had a great one and would not pay him. We could have easily kept him with a decent raise but he left.

We gave the job to Yates who played an awful schedule. Fun to watch on channel 10 I admit but He was not a good coach. Ran up wins vs buy opponents. Made one NCAA and 2 NITs but did not win a tourney game in five years and did not go anywhere his last two. FIRED

We could not find a good replacement. Got turned down by a bunch of names. Then we talked to VCU about hiring Dana Kirk. We were warned it was bad idea. It was. He won and won big but at what price. We went through one of the worst academic scandals in the history of the NCAA, had a coach with a bad gambling problem and was reckless with buying players. Remember what happened? I do. I was working there and tried to warn them of the academic issues. I presented a remedy and Kirk refused anyone access and our weak AD did nothing. FIRED

We hired Finch. We had to hire Finch. He deserved to be given a shot. He inherited NCAA sanctions, Banned first year, Six NCAAs including an Elite 8 and a Sweet 16 plus 3 NITs in 11 years and three conferences. He benefited from great Memphis talent but toward the end (many reasons) it all went south. The local talent had dried up and we went after jucos (sound familiar). FIRED

Yea! we hired Tick Price after being turned down by at least 5 name coaches. One of the biggest surprise hires and worst. FIRED after two years. Man oh man was my neighbor a poor coach and even worse human being.

Kept Johnny Jones one year essentially as an interim. Fired (or not retained). Good guy but clearly not ready.

Got turned down by a bunch of names and then turned to a tainted NCAA violator who had a Final Four expunged and failed pro coaching experience. He needed a place to go to redeem himself. He could recruit. He was a decent coach. He was a great salesman. He was connected and got players we couldn't touch before or after. In 9 years he reached unprecedented heights (but got a lot of critique that he couldn't win the big games.) He did to us what he did to UMASS then fled like a carpetbagger to Ky. Note: first since Bartow not to get fired.

We tried a lot of names. We offered a lot of money but no takers. It was an embarrassment of monumental proportions. So in desperation they gave the job to Josh. A good man who had a reputation of being a tireless worker and great recruiter. He was on his way out to town. He wasn't left with much to work with. In his first five years he equaled or exceeded Cals first five years by most measurements.

He is in year 7. Won a lot of games just not many big games. High energy, high character, sort of different. Last year and this things have gone south. Even his best years had the can't win the big game cloud. The big problem is the big contract. He will be fired its just a matter of when.

We pay coaches a lot of money to first win and then to go away in most cases. Startiing with hiring Bartow in 1970 we have had 8 coaches. We had three losing seasons between Yates and Kirk that were pretty bad. We had four years of Finch to Price to Jones that was awful and hard to watch.

Bartow went to the championship game after his first two mediocre years.
Kirk started a great five year run (Thank you Lee, Turner and company)after a couple of losing seasons.
Finch was a success by most measurements and had two great years before things went bad.
Cal had five OK years before he got the Laurenburg train rolling and then had four a Duke, KY, Kansas, NC type run.

In all of the good and bad we have seen we have always seen the good come back. We will again. I don't like the public tar & feathering Josh is getting. I like him but he has lost the city and the program. He won't be given the chance to recover regardless of whether you think he can or can't. Its a different world in recruiting and its a different kind of fan-base.

Our admins gave him the contract and have retained him each year. Josh gives us the best he has even with some flaws, I'm convinced of that. His main mistake was saying yes when RC chased him down as he was leaving town. Whoever we had hired that was willing to follow Cals big nuke job would have been fired. I have no doubt of that.

The question is, can we get anyone to take the job when our history shows that it has been very problematic?

So seven years is a little above average for a coach at the U of M.

Curlin 23 years with one fielding no team due to WWII.
Tarry 3
Lambert 5
Vannatta 6
Ehlers 4
IBA 4
Bartow 4
Yates 5
Kirk 7
Finch 11
Price 2
Jones 1
Cal 9
Pastner 7-? the fourth longest tenure in Tiger coaching history

This may be most un factual post I seen in a while. Not going to address all of them except to say what I have posted elsewhere. ESPN used a performance based ranking in 2012 and Tigers were 19th best program in CBB. Haven't been bad since 2012.

Dana never got caught by NCAA for paying players. Never proven. We came within an eyelash of getting Larry Brown when Dana was hired. Don't think he would have done as well. I could go on and on about your post but most will see through it.

(02-08-2016 02:40 PM)BuccTiger Wrote:  

(02-08-2016 02:28 PM)BealeStreetTiger Wrote:  

(02-08-2016 01:58 PM)BuccTiger Wrote:  

(02-08-2016 01:54 PM)Halfcourt Wrote:  

(02-08-2016 01:24 PM)BuccTiger Wrote:  Excellent post.

Solid, well thought out post. Not sure you can say everyone would have failed following Cal.

I don't think everyone would have, but most of the coaches we could have got to take the job would have found themselves right where Pastner is. Unless the bagman cometh.

Any solid coach could have done much better than Pastner. Pastner had some top 10 recruiting classes and he did nothing with them other than winning buy & CUSA games. Any important games against a team with a pulse he lost….and kept losing year after year….and is still losing them.

The deal is not only is he not a good coach, he’s one of the worst we've ever had.

He may very well be, but the history of the job is one where Bartow is the only coach who has had success who didn't bring the law down on us who wasn't eventually fired.

Isn't that the case with most open jobs.

Maybe a few more big jumps from obscure jobs to high majors now due to TV money but that , like everything, will change when cord cutting becomes full blown in maybe 2 years. If you are investor, short Directv, Comcast, Dish, etc.

Apple and others are going to have an ala carte TV deal where you only buy channels you want. For instance, sports pack buyers will no longer have to buy Big 10 and SEC network together. Both will lose 3/4 of their subscribers. Very narrow markets for those networks in overall scheme of things.

New TV contacts will be performance based and most likely existing contracts will be renegotiated.