(02-07-2016 01:30 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(02-06-2016 11:10 PM)emu steve Wrote:  The biggest problem, again, and it has been obvious and discussed here from day one: DEPTH.

It is a problem in the 1st half and was critical in the 2nd half as foul trouble took its toll.

It really did turn the game late. Once you had those two players foul out in the late stages of the game it changed everything. Not only did you lose a couple of solid threats but the guys left on the floor could not aggressively defend us or foul us.

"This is the part of the game where depth is important.." -- Bull Run game thread comments

The guys calling the game noticed the difference..

"last 60 seconds Josh Whetzel was aghast EMU wasn’t fouling, but they had only 6 guys left, two on 4. They just had no more" -- Bull Run Post Game Comments

Anyhoot... I think you guys have a couple of really great young players and if you can add a body or two to your depth you can eaisly be a top 4 MAC team in the coming years.

How was your recruiting this past year?

+2 (I'll give you a +2 for the best post in this thread, and it is by a rival team poster. ).

I will check the stats for say the last 3 or 4 games, but we are now essentially a 6-man team.

As everyone knows, late in the game and as the season wears on, depth separates teams. Lack of depth turns good teams into mediocre teams and causes games to be lost that looked like wins...

This was much like our BSU game loss where JT4, Bond (and anyone else?) fouled out.

As I have been saying, we have two legitimate big men (JT4 and Nazione), SF is problematic as Bond hasn't broadened his game yet, and Price has regressed again after a good start to the season. Rebounding from the '3' spot has been a problem.

The back court is fine. I'm not worried about Toney, Mangum and Lee.

As far as recruiting: We have THREE big men sitting out.

Nicky Madray, a PF / C transfer from Binghamton. Ave. almost 10 ppg as a frosh at Binghamton.

Lamar Wofford-Humphreys (LWH) a JUCO transfer sitout. Came up one JUCO class short and completed it in fall. He was supposed to compete with Nazione for time at PF and back up JT4. Supposedly a Murphy type: Long, good shot blocker, etc.

Quaran Jones - a D-II transfer who will compete with Nobles for PT at '4'.

So we lose Nazione, but pick up 3 sitouts two of whom a big enough to play both '4' and '5'.

We'll have at least 1 scholarship to give (Nazione's) next year. I wouldn't be surprised if some others don't return given how bad the bench was this year.

Again, Murphy is playing really 6 guys + Nobles getting minutes... E.g., yesterday I noticed that Price did not take his shirt off until Naz fouled out... Murphy was going to play 7 guys. Period.

Some of the problems up front remind me of EMU FB. When injuries hit the OL, the bench could not get it done. The offense stagnated.

Check out this box score:

http://www.emueagles.com/boxscore.aspx?p...ll&id=6109

Lee was the bench. Nobles and Price combined for zero points. No one else even played.

Or the Miami blowout: Bench (other than Lee) scored SIX points... Ugh!!

http://www.emueagles.com/boxscore.aspx?p...ll&id=6108

WMU loss. Price had 8. No one, including Lee, even scored.

http://www.emueagles.com/boxscore.aspx?p...ll&id=6107

I was thinking about this all game, but why does Raven Lee come off the bench and not start?

(02-07-2016 10:05 AM)BullBoy Wrote:  I was thinking about this all game, but why does Raven Lee come off the bench and not start?

Great question considering he is the second best player on the team by a wide margin. He is an All-MAC talent who is clearly in Murphy's imaginary doghouse.

Dear Bob,
Since the discussion seems to have gone to Eastern not having enough depth, that may be a reason for bringing in Lee after the start of the game. The concern for bench scoring, whether true or not, seems to have been a factor in this game. In any case Lee was 3-10 from two point range, and 1-6 from three point range. Not what I would call good shooting percentages. He did have 4-5 from the charity stripe, but his overall performance was not there. I don't expect him to have forty point games every game, however, he should be in the 15-20 point range consistently, and I think that is what is troubling for Coach Murphy. Other bench players are not doing the job either. Nobles and Price need to step up their games.

Ken-
Raven was 3-10 total including 1-6 from 3.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

You mean Raven wasn't on Sportscenter again?! When you look at the stats for Raven (Sportscenter) Lee they are very deceiving they show he's shooting 40% from the field and 37% from 3 point land unfortunately most of those stats are in two games Miami (O) and CMU take those out and the numbers are closer. Unlike Steve I'm concerned about our backcourt and inconsistent shooting and the perimeter defense against the 3 point shot has NOT been effective pretty much all season long. We really need a true point guard to emerge and take charge of this team and that would be my number 1 recruiting priority for next year.

And not to put all on Lee yes I agree with JT and Lee on the same team one would think that we would be at the top of the MAC not scrapping bottom. I don't see consistent team play or progress from some of the players Price and Bond have been brought up and they are good examples.

The problem with this team is point guard play. Simply put, the assist/turnover ratio is subpar. You cannot win in college if you don't have a better than average PG. That has to be the #1 priority for this team moving forward. Toney and Mangum are shoot first guards who don't shoot very well. That is not going to get things done, even with 2 of the best players in the conference.

(02-07-2016 12:51 PM)Bob Wickersham Wrote:  The problem with this team is point guard play. Simply put, the assist/turnover ratio is subpar. You cannot win in college if you don't have a better than average PG. That has to be the #1 priority for this team moving forward. Toney and Mangum are shoot first guards who don't shoot very well. That is not going to get things done, even with 2 of the best players in the conference.

or Raven Lee with his 5 turnovers vs 2 assists

Lee 40 turnovers in 407 minutes
Toney 54 in 625 minutes
Mangum 50 in 604 minutes

I'm sure you can calculate the average turnovers per minutes

(02-07-2016 01:13 PM)emu79 Wrote:  

(02-07-2016 12:51 PM)Bob Wickersham Wrote:  The problem with this team is point guard play. Simply put, the assist/turnover ratio is subpar. You cannot win in college if you don't have a better than average PG. That has to be the #1 priority for this team moving forward. Toney and Mangum are shoot first guards who don't shoot very well. That is not going to get things done, even with 2 of the best players in the conference.

or Raven Lee with his 5 turnovers vs 2 assists

Lee 40 turnovers in 407 minutes
Toney 54 in 625 minutes
Mangum 50 in 604 minutes

I'm sure you can calculate the average turnovers per minutes

Dude, Lee is not a point guard. He is a slasher/shooter. Quit blaming him for everything, understand that point guards are supposed to protect the ball and facilitate the offensively gifted players (Thompson, Lee) get the ball to them in spots where they can score effectively. An example of a good PG would be Carlos Medlock or Lorenzo Neely.

(02-07-2016 10:57 AM)Ken Barna Wrote:  Dear Bob,
Since the discussion seems to have gone to Eastern not having enough depth, that may be a reason for bringing in Lee after the start of the game. The concern for bench scoring, whether true or not, seems to have been a factor in this game. In any case Lee was 3-10 from two point range, and 1-6 from three point range. Not what I would call good shooting percentages. He did have 4-5 from the charity stripe, but his overall performance was not there. I don't expect him to have forty point games every game, however, he should be in the 15-20 point range consistently, and I think that is what is troubling for Coach Murphy. Other bench players are not doing the job either. Nobles and Price need to step up their games.

Ken, I think you nailed it.

It isn't discipline or doghouse (after 46 points? ), but as you suggest with a 6 man scoring rotation, the 6th man MIGHT be more important than many of the starters.

Beyond the 5 starters and Lee, the bench is devoid of even semi-reliable scorers.

If say JT4 or Naz and Magnum come out is Blake Brown (or Nobles) going to score enough? Lee needs to come in a pick up the scoring for two positions.

And if he scores we'll be fine; if not, we're hosed.

Just not going to get enough scoring from Brown, Price, Nobles, EA, etc.

Lee needs to be a one-man scoring machine after subs have been made.

And, yes, guys there will be games that Lee wins for us single-handedly because we can get enough points from JT4, Naz, Mangum and Toney so that Lee can put the cherry on the sundae.

This team's problems extend far beyond one player or position. How could you try to place blame of the team's struggles on one place? That boggles my mind. Can on of the statistical wizards look up and post Ty Toney's overall stats and compare them to the so "top pgs" in the MAC. The team make up is not conducive to success. No depth at all. The team only goes 6 maybe 6.5 deep with any note worthy production. Then there is the schematics, which is none existent. Offensively you can and will not will in any college bball league with solely an isolation one on one offense. There isn't any fluidity to our offense, that's part of the reason we go long droughts with out scoring and it makes us much easier to defend. Very, very little offense sets are being run. Defensively, its fine to run the zone. I don't have a problem with it. I do have a problem with running it exclusively though. I believe a coach must make in-game adjustments to be successful. Not saying he should trash the zone altogether but atleast have other defensive sets to throw at a team for different looks. Its so much easier to prepare for a team when you know whats coming. So there are a lot things that need to be addressed with this team none of which will be fixed over night, sadly!

(02-07-2016 02:28 PM)MidwestBallLife27 Wrote:  This team's problems extend far beyond one player or position. How could you try to place blame of the team's struggles on one place? That boggles my mind. Can on of the statistical wizards look up and post Ty Toney's overall stats and compare them to the so "top pgs" in the MAC. The team make up is not conducive to success. No depth at all. The team only goes 6 maybe 6.5 deep with any note worthy production. Then there is the schematics, which is none existent. Offensively you can and will not will in any college bball league with solely an isolation one on one offense. There isn't any fluidity to our offense, that's part of the reason we go long droughts with out scoring and it makes us much easier to defend. Very, very little offense sets are being run. Defensively, its fine to run the zone. I don't have a problem with it. I do have a problem with running it exclusively though. I believe a coach must make in-game adjustments to be successful. Not saying he should trash the zone altogether but atleast have other defensive sets to throw at a team for different looks. Its so much easier to prepare for a team when you know whats coming. So there are a lot things that need to be addressed with this team none of which will be fixed over night, sadly!

I'm glad we are discussing depth and not blaming Lee or whomever...

As we all knew Murphy used a scholarship to get Madray, a good transfer prospect for next season.

He could do this knowing that LWH would sign and would be a player at 4 and 5.

Where are we know, things broke down is when LWH didn't complete his academics this summer at his JUCO.

Word during summer is that it was touch and go. Maybe yes; maybe no.

At that time there is no "Plan B". Madray's scholarship was locked in. A scholarship was saved for LWH hoping that he would be eligible.

So that meant two scholarships produced zero games at the PF / C spots. Hashag: #S*itHappens

It is my understanding that LWH is in school, etc. etc.

Jones is in school so we kind of go from famine to feast, losing one but picking up three PF or C players for next season.

(02-07-2016 01:19 PM)Bob Wickersham Wrote:  

(02-07-2016 01:13 PM)emu79 Wrote:  

(02-07-2016 12:51 PM)Bob Wickersham Wrote:  The problem with this team is point guard play. Simply put, the assist/turnover ratio is subpar. You cannot win in college if you don't have a better than average PG. That has to be the #1 priority for this team moving forward. Toney and Mangum are shoot first guards who don't shoot very well. That is not going to get things done, even with 2 of the best players in the conference.

or Raven Lee with his 5 turnovers vs 2 assists

Lee 40 turnovers in 407 minutes
Toney 54 in 625 minutes
Mangum 50 in 604 minutes

I'm sure you can calculate the average turnovers per minutes

Dude, Lee is not a point guard. He is a slasher/shooter. Quit blaming him for everything, understand that point guards are supposed to protect the ball and facilitate the offensively gifted players (Thompson, Lee) get the ball to them in spots where they can score effectively. An example of a good PG would be Carlos Medlock or Lorenzo Neely.

Here I'll post again since you're reading comprehensive dude is 8th grade this was posted prior 20 minutes to your point guard post:

You mean Raven wasn't on Sportscenter again?! When you look at the stats for Raven (Sportscenter) Lee they are very deceiving they show he's shooting 40% from the field and 37% from 3 point land unfortunately most of those stats are in two games Miami (O) and CMU take those out and the numbers are closer. Unlike Steve I'm concerned about our backcourt and inconsistent shooting and the perimeter defense against the 3 point shot has NOT been effective pretty much all season long. We really need a true point guard to emerge and take charge of this team and that would be my number 1 recruiting priority for next year.

And not to put all on Lee yes I agree with JT and Lee on the same team one would think that we would be at the top of the MAC not scrapping bottom. I don't see consistent team play or progress from some of the players Price and Bond have been brought up and they are good examples.

(02-07-2016 03:02 PM)emu steve Wrote:  

(02-07-2016 02:28 PM)MidwestBallLife27 Wrote:  This team's problems extend far beyond one player or position. How could you try to place blame of the team's struggles on one place? That boggles my mind. Can on of the statistical wizards look up and post Ty Toney's overall stats and compare them to the so "top pgs" in the MAC. The team make up is not conducive to success. No depth at all. The team only goes 6 maybe 6.5 deep with any note worthy production. Then there is the schematics, which is none existent. Offensively you can and will not will in any college bball league with solely an isolation one on one offense. There isn't any fluidity to our offense, that's part of the reason we go long droughts with out scoring and it makes us much easier to defend. Very, very little offense sets are being run. Defensively, its fine to run the zone. I don't have a problem with it. I do have a problem with running it exclusively though. I believe a coach must make in-game adjustments to be successful. Not saying he should trash the zone altogether but atleast have other defensive sets to throw at a team for different looks. Its so much easier to prepare for a team when you know whats coming. So there are a lot things that need to be addressed with this team none of which will be fixed over night, sadly!

I'm glad we are discussing depth and not blaming Lee or whomever...

As we all knew Murphy used a scholarship to get Madray, a good transfer prospect for next season.

He could do this knowing that LWH would sign and would be a player at 4 and 5.

Where are we know, things broke down is when LWH didn't complete his academics this summer at his JUCO.

Word during summer is that it was touch and go. Maybe yes; maybe no.

At that time there is no "Plan B". Madray's scholarship was locked in. A scholarship was saved for LWH hoping that he would be eligible.

So that meant two scholarships produced zero games at the PF / C spots. Hashag: #S*itHappens

It is my understanding that LWH is in school, etc. etc.

Jones is in school so we kind of go from famine to feast, losing one but picking up three PF or C players for next season.

But to say our guard play isn't a concern would not be accurate. Part of the problem is front court depth which improves the rebounding and defense. I'm not expecting big time scoring production from any of the 3 bigs and you still need a guard that can get inside to them on a consistent basis.

emu79 is correct in the sense that the top priority for this team has to be to find a true point guard. Toney and Mangum are not good enough. Neither one will "emerge" this season, a concerted recruiting effort is needed to bring in a pass first, true PG for next season. Lee and Thompson would be much better if they were playing with a Neely or a Medlock.

Behind Thompson Toney has been the best player on this team this year. The coaching staff says he has definitely been the most consistent overall all season on both ends of the floor. Once again pull the overall stats on Toney compared to all the "true point guards" in the MAC. I don't care if you had Isaiah Thomas on this team they still couldn't overcome all the other deficiencies.

(02-07-2016 03:40 PM)MidwestBallLife27 Wrote:  Behind Thompson Toney has been the best player on this team this year. The coaching staff says he has definitely been the most consistent overall all season on both ends of the floor. Once again pull the overall stats on Toney compared to all the "true point guards" in the MAC. I don't care if you had Isaiah Thomas on this team they still couldn't overcome all the other deficiencies.

Agreed. Toney is one of the last players I'd blame for our struggles. Is he a "true point guard"? Not really. But he's the only player on the team that gets to the basket effectively. His numbers are skewed by an awful start to the season, but I bet his MAC numbers look pretty solid. He just needs to stop shooting threes altogether.

I still maintain that Toney isn't the problem. Agree with some of our posters. We have bigger problems, e.g., depth and SF.

I am wondering, wondering, wondering what this season would be like with LWH, not only in terms of defense but also matchups. Could we play LWH, JT4 and Naz at the same time? When Madray is eligible next season does he see time defensively at C while JT4 goes out on a wing? I'm guessing that Madray is say 25 lbs heavier than JT4. JT4 isn't a Bond, but he isn't a "Big Dog" or even a 250 pounder... We are killed vs. Akron with 'Big Dog' and Pat Forsythe.

(as was discussed on the main MAC board, the MAC is really strong at '5' this year: Boothe, JT4, Big Dog, Campbell (Ohio), Maric, etc.

My guess is that if the depth was much better we'd have won several of the MAC games we've lost. We get brutalized in 'foul fest' games like UB, BSU, etc.

We don't need (it's not realistic) to have stars at all 5 spots. Many MAC starters don't average say 7 ppg.

IF LWH was eligible and Madray didn't have to sit out, I bet we'd be a MAC power. I'm not worried at all about Toney, Mangum, and Lee.

For those who like to think ahead to next season: I'm curious how much muscle JT4 can put on? Can he add 20 lbs.? He seems to have the frame just needs 6 months in the weight room.

Honestly due to the lack of bench depth some players should not have their scholies renewed after this year, harsh but probably needs to be done:

In my opinion we need a high scoring small forward like Ward maybe Cochrane from Owens CC might be good fit.

An comment and then an observation, if this seasons continues down the drain and since you already burned his red shirt year why not let Stone play more at the point and at least give him experience next year? I maintain despite the fact that I like Toney's hustle I see him more at the scoring guard position and would recruit another point guard-Towns would again be a good fit here.

Lastly we need a big scoring high school guard or JUCO who can come off the bench we could even redshirt him if we had the right point guard.