I still like the BYU/UNLV travel partner combo in the Big XII South with the Texas schools. Keep Texas/OU as lone cross-division. Las Vegas in the P5 becomes de facto pro team, and the Rebs are working on an all-purpose 55k seat stadium. I do think UNM and CSU have potential, but UNLV is a sleeping giant.

Really? People are talking about XII expansion scenarios??

They're not even going to have a CCG. They're going to keep doing their 10-team, 9-game round-robin "true champion" marketing crap. Even though it's an inferior method to produce a champion.

But the point is, there is no XII expansion. Not any time soon. They're going to ride OU making it to the CFP for a MINIMUM of the rest of this first CFP cycle AND the next cycle. So that's four more seasons, minimum.

(12-03-2015 08:58 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  Really? People are talking about XII expansion scenarios??

They're not even going to have a CCG. They're going to keep doing their 10-team, 9-game round-robin "true champion" marketing crap. Even though it's an inferior method to produce a champion.

As was explained to you, it's better than the CCG method for choosing a champion, because even though someone has HFA, that's better than teams not playing at all, like Iowa can win the B1G this weekend without ever having played Ohio State.

That said, you are correct, the Big 12 isn't expanding. Their only concern was whether the CFP was biased against them, and Oklahoma proves it isn't.

(12-03-2015 09:37 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(12-03-2015 08:58 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  Really? People are talking about XII expansion scenarios??

They're not even going to have a CCG. They're going to keep doing their 10-team, 9-game round-robin "true champion" marketing crap. Even though it's an inferior method to produce a champion.

As was explained to you, it's better than the CCG method for choosing a champion, because even though someone has HFA, that's better than teams not playing at all, like Iowa can win the B1G this weekend without ever having played Ohio State.

That said, you are correct, the Big 12 isn't expanding. Their only concern was whether the CFP was biased against them, and Oklahoma proves it isn't.

Not going to debate you here, willing to start a new thread - if you wish.

Primer: HFA is worse than no round-robin.

(12-03-2015 09:41 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(12-03-2015 09:37 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(12-03-2015 08:58 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  Really? People are talking about XII expansion scenarios??

They're not even going to have a CCG. They're going to keep doing their 10-team, 9-game round-robin "true champion" marketing crap. Even though it's an inferior method to produce a champion.

As was explained to you, it's better than the CCG method for choosing a champion, because even though someone has HFA, that's better than teams not playing at all, like Iowa can win the B1G this weekend without ever having played Ohio State.

That said, you are correct, the Big 12 isn't expanding. Their only concern was whether the CFP was biased against them, and Oklahoma proves it isn't.

Not going to debate you here, willing to start a new thread - if you wish.

Primer: HFA is worse than no round-robin.

I explained exactly why you were wrong about that, especially this year, when Oklahoma won the Big 12 by winning the decisive game on the road.

But you are wedded to the idea that a CCG - a very inferior way to pick a champ - so there doesn't seem to be any point to talking about it further.

BYU = prima dona, self appointed center of attention and according to some, a conference killer! Sorry, but that position has already been filled in the Big 12. (Hook em!)

Welcome UC, UM, UH or even lil ole CSU!

(12-02-2015 08:43 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(12-02-2015 02:47 PM)ManleyPointer Wrote:  

(12-02-2015 12:09 PM)YNot Wrote:  Are there any other non-P5 programs that have a P5 rival? Navy & Notre Dame, may be....

That's an overlooked upside of CSU. The "Big 8 wing" of the B12 was hurt most by defections. They lost 3 of their original 8 members. They could recapture some of their regional identity by emphasizing OOC P5 rivalries:

Oklahoma/Nebraska
Kansas/Mizzou
ISU/Iowa
CSU/Colorado

Granted, it would take some time for Kansas/Mizzou to bury the hatchet. But that's kind of the point. These are established rivalries with real passion. That makes for quality TV & has a stabilizing effect on the conference. There's a similar dynamic in the ACC. All of the schools outside of that Tobacco Road core have meaningful OOC rivalries against P5 teams.

The "SWC wing" is the B12's Tobacco Road. They stick together because of history. And even if they lose a member (aside from keystones UNC & UT) they can easily backfill. B12 lost aTm & TCU has been a pretty solid replacement.

CSU still needs to demonstrate their value on-field. So I can't blame the B12 for waiting. They're on the right track, though. They're still building that stadium, CU games are extremely competitive & they routinely beat up the dregs of the MWC.

Iowa was the first to defect the Big 8 moving to the Big 10.
Grinnell departed to join D3.

Someone forgot Houston is already a long time rival with Texas, Texas Tech, Baylor and TCU from the old SWC days.

Memphis rivals happened to be in the SEC especially in basketball. Plus, they were in the Metro with a bunch of the ACC schools.

Boise State is already starting a long trend of instant rivalry against the PAC 12 North teams except for Stanford.

Tulsa is already a long time rival of the Big 12 Oklahoma and Oklahoma State.

Northern Iowa is also a long time rivals to Iowa and Iowa State.

Cincinnati is already a rival to West Virginia. So is UConn. and USF.

UCF could be a rival to USF.

East Carolina already have rivalry games against ACC schools.

Temple does have rivalry games in basketball against the ACC schools.

UC and West Virginia aren't really that big of a rivalry, they are just geographically close. Louisville is a much bigger rivalry for us.

Talk of the B12 conjures up expansion for most people. For me in conjures up The Ottoman Empire, formerly known as the sick man of Europe.

The peak of the Ottoman Empire was from 1481-1566 but it continued on as an empire until 1922, a full 358 years after its peak. It fell behind the other great states of Europe in power gradually until it receded to no longer having Great Power status.

The peak of the B12 was from 1996-2011. During this time it stood alone with the SEC as the only 12 member power conferences in FBS. After the SEC it was regularly the second best conference in the land.

Then came the B1G offensive which scared the peasants of Nebraska into their protection. Seeing a chance to rejoin the West, Colorado separatists defect to the PAC. The SEC grabs a base in Texas with TAMU and creates a buffer between it and the B1G/B12 by taking over Missouri.

The end result is the B12 is reduced to last place among the Great Power Conferences. It still controls most of the lands in Texas, Oklahoma and Kansas because they are distant from the heartland of the B1G but the B12 is no longer a threat to the B1G's prestige.

The B12 remains a great power. They were invited to the council of the autonomy 5 and have P5 status. They'll continue to be a power conference for many years into the future. I don't know about 358 years like the Ottomans but it could be a very long time.

(12-03-2015 11:23 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  The end result is the B12 is reduced to last place among the Great Power Conferences.

The Big 12 makes more media money than the ACC.

The Big 12 makes more Bowl money than the ACC.

The Big 12 has an equal Sugar Bowl partnership with the mighty SEC, whereas the ACC is forced to share its lesser contract bowl with the SEC and B1G. The other four P5 paired up and left the ACC out.

So exactly how is the Big 12 the weakest?

(12-03-2015 11:33 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(12-03-2015 11:23 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  The end result is the B12 is reduced to last place among the Great Power Conferences.

The Big 12 makes more media money than the ACC.

The Big 12 makes more Bowl money than the ACC.

The Big 12 has an equal Sugar Bowl partnership with the mighty SEC, whereas the ACC is forced to share its lesser contract bowl with the SEC and B1G. The other four P5 paired up and left the ACC out.

So exactly how is the Big 12 the weakest?

That also applies to the Pac 12, although the Pac 12 will catch up at the end of the current contract cycle.

(12-03-2015 11:36 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(12-03-2015 11:33 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(12-03-2015 11:23 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  The end result is the B12 is reduced to last place among the Great Power Conferences.

The Big 12 makes more media money than the ACC.

The Big 12 makes more Bowl money than the ACC.

The Big 12 has an equal Sugar Bowl partnership with the mighty SEC, whereas the ACC is forced to share its lesser contract bowl with the SEC and B1G. The other four P5 paired up and left the ACC out.

So exactly how is the Big 12 the weakest?

That also applies to the Pac 12, although the Pac 12 will catch up at the end of the current contract cycle.

not really. Pac 12 has the Rose Bowl partnership. ACC at least 6/8 times is a jr member of the club.

(12-03-2015 11:33 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(12-03-2015 11:23 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  The end result is the B12 is reduced to last place among the Great Power Conferences.

The Big 12 makes more media money than the ACC.

The Big 12 makes more Bowl money than the ACC.

The Big 12 has an equal Sugar Bowl partnership with the mighty SEC, whereas the ACC is forced to share its lesser contract bowl with the SEC and B1G. The other four P5 paired up and left the ACC out.

So exactly how is the Big 12 the weakest?

It may have the most revenue at moment. Th decline of the B12 empire is only in its 4th year. The Ottoman Empire still looked good 4 years into a 385 year decline.

The SEC, B1G are the standard bearers. The PAC has a unique pacific empire. The ACC is a fancy like the Holy Roman Empire. The B12 is fugly in comparison.

West Virginia (Fugly addition)
Texas Tech (Do these guys really belong in a power conference?)
Texas/Oklahoma/Kansas schools (The class of a no-frills region)

How long do Texas, Oklahoma and Kansas stay in the B12? Four more years? 38 more years? Nobody knows the answer to this but it seems inevitable they will leave and the value of the B12 diminished severely.

Unless I'm a Houston or Memphis fan, I can't see how other AAC schools like UCF and USF would be pumped with the thought of joining the B12. Houston with the Texas schools and Memphis would be a nice basketball compliment to the Oklahoma and Kansas schools. Nobody else from the AAC fits well in there.

I can see the B1G going after Kansas at some point - it seems like the only non ACC school that's AAU and has a product (basketball) that enhances the B1Gs value.

(12-03-2015 01:15 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  

(12-03-2015 11:33 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(12-03-2015 11:23 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  The end result is the B12 is reduced to last place among the Great Power Conferences.

The Big 12 makes more media money than the ACC.

The Big 12 makes more Bowl money than the ACC.

The Big 12 has an equal Sugar Bowl partnership with the mighty SEC, whereas the ACC is forced to share its lesser contract bowl with the SEC and B1G. The other four P5 paired up and left the ACC out.

So exactly how is the Big 12 the weakest?

It may have the most revenue at moment. Th decline of the B12 empire is only in its 4th year. The Ottoman Empire still looked good 4 years into a 385 year decline.

The SEC, B1G are the standard bearers. The PAC has a unique pacific empire. The ACC is a fancy like the Holy Roman Empire. The B12 is fugly in comparison.

West Virginia (Fugly addition)
Texas Tech (Do these guys really belong in a power conference?)
Texas/Oklahoma/Kansas schools (The class of a no-frills region)

How long do Texas, Oklahoma and Kansas stay in the B12? Four more years? 38 more years? Nobody knows the answer to this but it seems inevitable they will leave and the value of the B12 diminished severely.

Unless I'm a Houston or Memphis fan, I can't see how other AAC schools like UCF and USF would be pumped with the thought of joining the B12. Houston with the Texas schools and Memphis would be a nice basketball compliment to the Oklahoma and Kansas schools. Nobody else from the AAC fits well in there.

Just quit with the Ottoman empire analogy. It was cute the first time.

The Big 12 is in a good short term spot right now. Will it last forever? Of course not. I'm not even sure college football will be around in the form it is in the future. There's lots of change potential on the horizon.

(12-03-2015 09:52 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(12-03-2015 09:41 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(12-03-2015 09:37 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(12-03-2015 08:58 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  Really? People are talking about XII expansion scenarios??

They're not even going to have a CCG. They're going to keep doing their 10-team, 9-game round-robin "true champion" marketing crap. Even though it's an inferior method to produce a champion.

As was explained to you, it's better than the CCG method for choosing a champion, because even though someone has HFA, that's better than teams not playing at all, like Iowa can win the B1G this weekend without ever having played Ohio State.

That said, you are correct, the Big 12 isn't expanding. Their only concern was whether the CFP was biased against them, and Oklahoma proves it isn't.

Not going to debate you here, willing to start a new thread - if you wish.

Primer: HFA is worse than no round-robin.

I explained exactly why you were wrong about that, especially this year, when Oklahoma won the Big 12 by winning the decisive game on the road.

But you are wedded to the idea that a CCG - a very inferior way to pick a champ - so there doesn't seem to be any point to talking about it further.

I explained exactly why you were wrong about that, especially last year, when Baylor was left out of the CFP.

But you are wedded to the idea of a round-robin - a very inferior way to pick a champ - so there doesn't seem to be any point talking about it further.


You've proven nothing. I've proven nothing. We're just two internet message board posters doing what internet message posters do.

I'd be happy to start a new thread about this.

(12-03-2015 01:34 PM)Frog in the Kitchen Sink Wrote:  

(12-03-2015 01:15 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  

(12-03-2015 11:33 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(12-03-2015 11:23 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  The end result is the B12 is reduced to last place among the Great Power Conferences.

The Big 12 makes more media money than the ACC.

The Big 12 makes more Bowl money than the ACC.

The Big 12 has an equal Sugar Bowl partnership with the mighty SEC, whereas the ACC is forced to share its lesser contract bowl with the SEC and B1G. The other four P5 paired up and left the ACC out.

So exactly how is the Big 12 the weakest?

It may have the most revenue at moment. Th decline of the B12 empire is only in its 4th year. The Ottoman Empire still looked good 4 years into a 385 year decline.

The SEC, B1G are the standard bearers. The PAC has a unique pacific empire. The ACC is a fancy like the Holy Roman Empire. The B12 is fugly in comparison.

West Virginia (Fugly addition)
Texas Tech (Do these guys really belong in a power conference?)
Texas/Oklahoma/Kansas schools (The class of a no-frills region)

How long do Texas, Oklahoma and Kansas stay in the B12? Four more years? 38 more years? Nobody knows the answer to this but it seems inevitable they will leave and the value of the B12 diminished severely.

Unless I'm a Houston or Memphis fan, I can't see how other AAC schools like UCF and USF would be pumped with the thought of joining the B12. Houston with the Texas schools and Memphis would be a nice basketball compliment to the Oklahoma and Kansas schools. Nobody else from the AAC fits well in there.

Just quit with the Ottoman empire analogy. It was cute the first time.

The Big 12 is in a good short term spot right now. Will it last forever? Of course not. I'm not even sure college football will be around in the form it is in the future. There's lots of change potential on the horizon.

My point is if the Ottoman Empire lasted 385 years after its peak the B12 could last as a P5 a very long time.

People keep thinking demise is right around the corner for the B12. There may be some movement soon or it may be a quite a while.

If I'm an AAC school, I think I'd try to concentrate more on scheduling up for the playoff of doubling down on a high profile coaching hire like UCF did with Scott Frost. A lot of building can be done within the system and the AAC proved they can make a splash nationally as a conference this year.

(12-02-2015 11:46 AM)HawkeyeCoug Wrote:  1. Media Market - BYU brings in Salt Lake media market (bigger than Memphis and Cincy) as well as #12 Phoenix. Would make a Big 12 network feasible without Texas, Oklahoma, or Kansas giving up their own networks.

No, it would not. A Big 12 Network is DOA without really any of the three, much less all three.