(10-19-2015 04:51 PM)eich41 Wrote:  

(10-19-2015 03:24 PM)7 Wrote:  I will give you $100 if CMU wins out. They won't. It's funny to see you pooh-pooh NIU when they're the only win CMU has that isn't awful.

Now to be fair, NIU hasn't beat anyone who isn't awful either.

I'm not poo-pooing anyone, just pointing out the fallacy is saying that two teams are about the same when one lost to the other by double digits. You can make whatever excuse you want for the loss, but it doesn't change anything...

As for CMU winning out... they will be at least a 1 TD favorite in every game from here on out (and likely a double digit favorite in most if not all) aside from the Toledo game. Anything could happen, but aside from the Toledo game a loss is anything but "likely".

So was CMU better than NIU last year? Beat the tar out of NIU, in Huskie Stadium.

Was Virginia Tech better than Ohio State last year? Beat them in the Horse Shoe.

Is Northwestern better than Stanford this year?

(10-19-2015 05:17 PM)7 Wrote:  

(10-19-2015 04:51 PM)eich41 Wrote:  

(10-19-2015 03:24 PM)7 Wrote:  I will give you $100 if CMU wins out. They won't. It's funny to see you pooh-pooh NIU when they're the only win CMU has that isn't awful.

Now to be fair, NIU hasn't beat anyone who isn't awful either.

I'm not poo-pooing anyone, just pointing out the fallacy is saying that two teams are about the same when one lost to the other by double digits. You can make whatever excuse you want for the loss, but it doesn't change anything...

As for CMU winning out... they will be at least a 1 TD favorite in every game from here on out (and likely a double digit favorite in most if not all) aside from the Toledo game. Anything could happen, but aside from the Toledo game a loss is anything but "likely".

So was CMU better than NIU last year? Beat the tar out of NIU, in Huskie Stadium.

Was Virginia Tech better than Ohio State last year? Beat them in the Horse Shoe.

Is Northwestern better than Stanford this year?

They were when it counted.

(10-20-2015 07:43 AM)Boca Rocket Wrote:  

(10-19-2015 05:17 PM)7 Wrote:  

(10-19-2015 04:51 PM)eich41 Wrote:  

(10-19-2015 03:24 PM)7 Wrote:  I will give you $100 if CMU wins out. They won't. It's funny to see you pooh-pooh NIU when they're the only win CMU has that isn't awful.

Now to be fair, NIU hasn't beat anyone who isn't awful either.

I'm not poo-pooing anyone, just pointing out the fallacy is saying that two teams are about the same when one lost to the other by double digits. You can make whatever excuse you want for the loss, but it doesn't change anything...

As for CMU winning out... they will be at least a 1 TD favorite in every game from here on out (and likely a double digit favorite in most if not all) aside from the Toledo game. Anything could happen, but aside from the Toledo game a loss is anything but "likely".

So was CMU better than NIU last year? Beat the tar out of NIU, in Huskie Stadium.

Was Virginia Tech better than Ohio State last year? Beat them in the Horse Shoe.

Is Northwestern better than Stanford this year?

They were when it counted.

He means Stanford is the better football team right now.

Stanford has a very favorable schedule the rest of the way and has a great chance to play in an Access Bowl game. They even have an outside chance at a Playoff berth. Northwestern is going . . . nowhere.

The point is, the results of all three of those games mentioned were flukes.

(10-20-2015 08:25 AM)huskiebob Wrote:  

(10-20-2015 07:43 AM)Boca Rocket Wrote:  

(10-19-2015 05:17 PM)7 Wrote:  

(10-19-2015 04:51 PM)eich41 Wrote:  

(10-19-2015 03:24 PM)7 Wrote:  I will give you $100 if CMU wins out. They won't. It's funny to see you pooh-pooh NIU when they're the only win CMU has that isn't awful.

Now to be fair, NIU hasn't beat anyone who isn't awful either.

I'm not poo-pooing anyone, just pointing out the fallacy is saying that two teams are about the same when one lost to the other by double digits. You can make whatever excuse you want for the loss, but it doesn't change anything...

As for CMU winning out... they will be at least a 1 TD favorite in every game from here on out (and likely a double digit favorite in most if not all) aside from the Toledo game. Anything could happen, but aside from the Toledo game a loss is anything but "likely".

So was CMU better than NIU last year? Beat the tar out of NIU, in Huskie Stadium.

Was Virginia Tech better than Ohio State last year? Beat them in the Horse Shoe.

Is Northwestern better than Stanford this year?

They were when it counted.

He means Stanford is the better football team right now.

Stanford has a very favorable schedule the rest of the way and has a great chance to play in an Access Bowl game. They even have an outside chance at a Playoff berth. Northwestern is going . . . nowhere.

The point is, the results of all three of those games mentioned were flukes.

Flukes? It matters not at all who is better early on or later. There's only one way to definitively determine the better team and it can only take place on game day.

(10-20-2015 08:34 PM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote:  

(10-20-2015 08:25 AM)huskiebob Wrote:  

(10-20-2015 07:43 AM)Boca Rocket Wrote:  

(10-19-2015 05:17 PM)7 Wrote:  

(10-19-2015 04:51 PM)eich41 Wrote:  I'm not poo-pooing anyone, just pointing out the fallacy is saying that two teams are about the same when one lost to the other by double digits. You can make whatever excuse you want for the loss, but it doesn't change anything...

As for CMU winning out... they will be at least a 1 TD favorite in every game from here on out (and likely a double digit favorite in most if not all) aside from the Toledo game. Anything could happen, but aside from the Toledo game a loss is anything but "likely".

So was CMU better than NIU last year? Beat the tar out of NIU, in Huskie Stadium.

Was Virginia Tech better than Ohio State last year? Beat them in the Horse Shoe.

Is Northwestern better than Stanford this year?

They were when it counted.

He means Stanford is the better football team right now.

Stanford has a very favorable schedule the rest of the way and has a great chance to play in an Access Bowl game. They even have an outside chance at a Playoff berth. Northwestern is going . . . nowhere.

The point is, the results of all three of those games mentioned were flukes.

Flukes? It matters not at all who is better early on or later. There's only one way to definitively determine the better team and it can only take place on game day.

This simply isn't true. I can sit here all day and list examples of teams beating teams who they weren't as good as. It's the beauty of football or any one game scenario.

Central Michigan beat NIU this year. They were better on that day, just as they were last year. Doesn't mean they're a better team, though.

(10-21-2015 09:28 AM)7 Wrote:  

(10-20-2015 08:34 PM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote:  

(10-20-2015 08:25 AM)huskiebob Wrote:  

(10-20-2015 07:43 AM)Boca Rocket Wrote:  

(10-19-2015 05:17 PM)7 Wrote:  So was CMU better than NIU last year? Beat the tar out of NIU, in Huskie Stadium.

Was Virginia Tech better than Ohio State last year? Beat them in the Horse Shoe.

Is Northwestern better than Stanford this year?

They were when it counted.

He means Stanford is the better football team right now.

Stanford has a very favorable schedule the rest of the way and has a great chance to play in an Access Bowl game. They even have an outside chance at a Playoff berth. Northwestern is going . . . nowhere.

The point is, the results of all three of those games mentioned were flukes.

Flukes? It matters not at all who is better early on or later. There's only one way to definitively determine the better team and it can only take place on game day.

This simply isn't true. I can sit here all day and list examples of teams beating teams who they weren't as good as.

Central Michigan beat NIU this year. They were better on that day, just as they were last year. Doesn't mean they're a better team, though.

Show me the proof. There's a reason they keep score.

(10-21-2015 09:31 AM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote:  

(10-21-2015 09:28 AM)7 Wrote:  

(10-20-2015 08:34 PM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote:  

(10-20-2015 08:25 AM)huskiebob Wrote:  

(10-20-2015 07:43 AM)Boca Rocket Wrote:  They were when it counted.

He means Stanford is the better football team right now.

Stanford has a very favorable schedule the rest of the way and has a great chance to play in an Access Bowl game. They even have an outside chance at a Playoff berth. Northwestern is going . . . nowhere.

The point is, the results of all three of those games mentioned were flukes.

Flukes? It matters not at all who is better early on or later. There's only one way to definitively determine the better team and it can only take place on game day.

This simply isn't true. I can sit here all day and list examples of teams beating teams who they weren't as good as.

Central Michigan beat NIU this year. They were better on that day, just as they were last year. Doesn't mean they're a better team, though.

Show me the proof. There's a reason they keep score.

So you think Virginia Tech was a better team than Ohio State last year? Northwestern is better than Stanford this year?

(10-21-2015 09:37 AM)7 Wrote:  

(10-21-2015 09:31 AM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote:  

(10-21-2015 09:28 AM)7 Wrote:  

(10-20-2015 08:34 PM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote:  

(10-20-2015 08:25 AM)huskiebob Wrote:  He means Stanford is the better football team right now.

Stanford has a very favorable schedule the rest of the way and has a great chance to play in an Access Bowl game. They even have an outside chance at a Playoff berth. Northwestern is going . . . nowhere.

The point is, the results of all three of those games mentioned were flukes.

Flukes? It matters not at all who is better early on or later. There's only one way to definitively determine the better team and it can only take place on game day.

This simply isn't true. I can sit here all day and list examples of teams beating teams who they weren't as good as.

Central Michigan beat NIU this year. They were better on that day, just as they were last year. Doesn't mean they're a better team, though.

Show me the proof. There's a reason they keep score.

So you think Virginia Tech was a better team than Ohio State last year? Northwestern is better than Stanford this year?

Nope. But what I think doesn't matter. The score matters. And I know next to nothing about Stanford or N W but I take back what I said about VT. I have no question they were better than OSU when they played. Again I welcome your proof that they weren't better at some other point in the year. Don't expect it but I welcome it.

(10-21-2015 09:50 AM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote:  

(10-21-2015 09:37 AM)7 Wrote:  

(10-21-2015 09:31 AM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote:  

(10-21-2015 09:28 AM)7 Wrote:  

(10-20-2015 08:34 PM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote:  Flukes? It matters not at all who is better early on or later. There's only one way to definitively determine the better team and it can only take place on game day.

This simply isn't true. I can sit here all day and list examples of teams beating teams who they weren't as good as.

Central Michigan beat NIU this year. They were better on that day, just as they were last year. Doesn't mean they're a better team, though.

Show me the proof. There's a reason they keep score.

So you think Virginia Tech was a better team than Ohio State last year? Northwestern is better than Stanford this year?

Nope. But what I think doesn't matter. The score matters. And I know next to nothing about Stanford or N W but I take back what I said about VT. I have no question they were better than OSU when they played. Again I welcome your proof that they weren't better at some other point in the year. Don't expect it but I welcome it.

Oh, I'm not arguing they were better on that day. The scoreboard tells you they were. I 100% agree with you. This conversation started because a CMU fan said CMU has to be ranked above NIU because they beat NIU. That I don't agree with.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is, yes if you beat a team you are better than them on that day. A better overall team in the context of a full season though? Not necessarily.

And you're right, sitting here and arguing if X team is better than Y team is pretty pointless, but that is the entire point of power rankings.

(10-21-2015 09:54 AM)7 Wrote:  

(10-21-2015 09:50 AM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote:  

(10-21-2015 09:37 AM)7 Wrote:  

(10-21-2015 09:31 AM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote:  

(10-21-2015 09:28 AM)7 Wrote:  This simply isn't true. I can sit here all day and list examples of teams beating teams who they weren't as good as.

Central Michigan beat NIU this year. They were better on that day, just as they were last year. Doesn't mean they're a better team, though.

Show me the proof. There's a reason they keep score.

So you think Virginia Tech was a better team than Ohio State last year? Northwestern is better than Stanford this year?

Nope. But what I think doesn't matter. The score matters. And I know next to nothing about Stanford or N W but I take back what I said about VT. I have no question they were better than OSU when they played. Again I welcome your proof that they weren't better at some other point in the year. Don't expect it but I welcome it.

Oh, I'm not arguing they were better on that day. The scoreboard tells you they were. I 100% agree with you. This conversation started because a CMU fan said CMU has to be ranked above NIU because they beat NIU. That I don't agree with.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is, yes if you beat a team you are better than them on that day. A better overall team in the context of a full season though? Not necessarily.

And you're right, sitting here and arguing if X team is better than Y team is pretty pointless, but that is the entire point of power rankings.

Stop agreeing with me! Actually, I was referring to someone saying certain wins were "flukes". Obviously power rankings should be based onhow one perceives the chances of one team should they play, hypothetically, against all other teams. A much larger picture. Those VT type wins may be anomalies but they aren't flukes.

(10-21-2015 09:54 AM)7 Wrote:  

(10-21-2015 09:50 AM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote:  

(10-21-2015 09:37 AM)7 Wrote:  

(10-21-2015 09:31 AM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote:  

(10-21-2015 09:28 AM)7 Wrote:  This simply isn't true. I can sit here all day and list examples of teams beating teams who they weren't as good as.

Central Michigan beat NIU this year. They were better on that day, just as they were last year. Doesn't mean they're a better team, though.

Show me the proof. There's a reason they keep score.

So you think Virginia Tech was a better team than Ohio State last year? Northwestern is better than Stanford this year?

Nope. But what I think doesn't matter. The score matters. And I know next to nothing about Stanford or N W but I take back what I said about VT. I have no question they were better than OSU when they played. Again I welcome your proof that they weren't better at some other point in the year. Don't expect it but I welcome it.

Oh, I'm not arguing they were better on that day. The scoreboard tells you they were. I 100% agree with you. This conversation started because a CMU fan said CMU has to be ranked above NIU because they beat NIU. That I don't agree with.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is, yes if you beat a team you are better than them on that day. A better overall team in the context of a full season though? Not necessarily.

And you're right, sitting here and arguing if X team is better than Y team is pretty pointless, but that is the entire point of power rankings.

All your comparisons to years past are so illogical. What happened last year or two years ago are irrelevant. We're dealing with different players, different coaches, etc. In year's past, I would agree that CMU over NIU wouldn't translate to CMU>NIU (although I suspect that has more to do with the coaching than the talent level but I digress). When you look at this year, CMU hasn't played a bad game. Last year when they beat NIU, they had been waxed at home by a bad Syracuse team and lost on the road to a bad Kansas team. They haven't played a bad game yet this year, and have had one score games against undefeated OkSt and MSU, took Syracuse to OT, and were a FG away from beating WMU on the road in their other loss until the very end.

I'd say when looking the entire body of work, NIU and CMU have had fairly similar results thus far. The difference is that when they played H2H NIU lost by 10. I'm not sure how you can look at what both teams have done thus far and try to discount the H2H result. Apparently, you try to bring up results from year's past that have nothing to do with the 2015 season...

Have you even read what I have been saying in this thread? Go back to my first post, I said NIU, CMU, and WMU were all in the same tier. If you think a 10 point win in miserable weather, when NIU's QB literally handed the ball to CMU twice without being hit means CMU is clearly better than NIU, hey, that's your opinion. My point of bringing up last years and other season result was to show teams lose head to head to another team all the time and end up being better teams.

If you want me to put 3-4 CMU in a different class than NIU right now, it's not going to happen. Congrats on beating NIU. Hang your hat on it.

(10-21-2015 11:29 AM)7 Wrote:  Have you even read what I have been saying in this thread? Go back to my first post, I said NIU, CMU, and WMU were all in the same tier. If you think a 10 point win in miserable weather, when NIU's QB literally handed the ball to CMU twice without being hit means CMU is clearly better than NIU, hey, that's your opinion. My point of bringing up last years and other season result was to show teams lose head to head to another team all the time and end up being better teams.

If you want me to put 3-4 CMU in a different class than NIU right now, it's not going to happen. Congrats on beating NIU. Hang your hat on it.

I've read your posts. They consist of bringing up example from prior years, which have nothing to do with 2015. Again when looking at the total body of work through 7 games, I don't know how you could have NIU above CMU. If you want to use weather as an excuse as to why you lost by 10 points (which you clearly do), then I'll just use at as the reason that NIU didn't lose by 21. Bad weather benefitted NIU much more than CMU considering CMU has the worst rushing offense in the MAC, and poor weather obviously hurts the passing game much more than the rushing game. The reality is that there is no logical argument to have NIU ahead of CMU at this point. That could change by the end of the year, but to this point in 2015, which is the only relevant information to consider, CMU>NIU. Projecting results from years past, or results in games yet to be played isn't going to change that.

I DIDN'T EVEN HAVE NIU AHEAD OF CMU (yet). I SAID WMU, CMU, AND NIU WERE ALL AT THE SAME LEVEL. Good lord.

One way or another, the MAC West will be decided when Toledo heads to Mt Pleasant, that is THE game. If CMU wins, they will be the MAC West champ. They have the cakeiest schedule of any other MAC West contender outside of that game. I don't see WMU having anything less than 2 losses in conference play with their schedule.

(10-21-2015 01:42 PM)MaddDawgz02 Wrote:  One way or another, the MAC West will be decided when Toledo heads to Mt Pleasant, that is THE game. If CMU wins, they will be the MAC West champ. They have the cakeiest schedule of any other MAC West contender outside of that game. I don't see WMU having anything less than 2 losses in conference play with their schedule.

That's probably true, even though at this point without a WMU loss, CMU doesn't control it's own destiny. I don't think WMU can avoid at least one loss with BG, @UT, and @NIU. They could lose all three, win 1 or 2, but I would be surprised if they win all three. As you said it's likely the MACW goes through Mt. Pleasant in November, barring an improbable loss or WMU running the table.

Toledo closes with NIU, BGSU, CMU and WMU....that's an extremely difficult November. 2-2 would shock me a lot less than 4-0. Win out and I would have to say that warrants a trip to a Big Boy Bowl....maybe the Cotton Bowl

(10-21-2015 02:01 PM)El Grande Flippero Wrote:  Toledo closes with NIU, BGSU, CMU and WMU....that's an extremely difficult November. 2-2 would shock me a lot less than 4-0. Win out and I would have to say that warrants a trip to a Big Boy Bowl....maybe the Cotton Bowl

Can't do the Cotton Bowl, that is a playoff game this year. It's Fiesta or the GoDaddy bowl for Toledo.

(10-21-2015 02:40 PM)utpotts Wrote:  

(10-21-2015 02:01 PM)El Grande Flippero Wrote:  Toledo closes with NIU, BGSU, CMU and WMU....that's an extremely difficult November. 2-2 would shock me a lot less than 4-0. Win out and I would have to say that warrants a trip to a Big Boy Bowl....maybe the Cotton Bowl

Can't do the Cotton Bowl, that is a playoff game this year. It's Fiesta or the GoDaddy bowl for Toledo.

Oh..I thought the Fiesta was a playoff bowl. Fiesta is a way better option. AZ>TX

(10-21-2015 01:52 PM)eich41 Wrote:  

(10-21-2015 01:42 PM)MaddDawgz02 Wrote:  One way or another, the MAC West will be decided when Toledo heads to Mt Pleasant, that is THE game. If CMU wins, they will be the MAC West champ. They have the cakeiest schedule of any other MAC West contender outside of that game. I don't see WMU having anything less than 2 losses in conference play with their schedule.

That's probably true, even though at this point without a WMU loss, CMU doesn't control it's own destiny. I don't think WMU can avoid at least one loss with BG, @UT, and @NIU. They could lose all three, win 1 or 2, but I would be surprised if they win all three. As you said it's likely the MACW goes through Mt. Pleasant in November, barring an improbable loss or WMU running the table.

I think WMU loses 2 of those 3 games, which should set CMU up for the division with a win vs Toledo. CMU would have had that Toledo game almost assuredly be a clincher if they could have pulled out that WMU game. I really thought they would win that game.