(10-08-2015 10:42 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(10-08-2015 01:51 AM)solohawks Wrote:  There were no big sky schools blocked from joining the wac. Wac football died because no big sky schools wanted to join

I believe your first sentence, but definitely don't believe your second sentence. FCS-level Big Sky schools couldn't just unilaterally proclaim that they were moving up to the FBS-level WAC. Even assuming that those Big Sky schools could get approved by the NCAA to move up to the FBS-level, it would have taken several years (meaning that the WAC would have still been killed off in the interim).

The two things that I often see overrated on this board:

(1) The *ability* of top performing FCS schools to move up to FBS.
(2) The *willingness* of poor performing FBS schools to move down to FCS.

#1 very rarely happens and #2 NEVER happens in today's college sports world.

If i recall correctly the wac was practically begging Montana to join them after "the project" failed. If Montana had joined them it likely would have started a domino effect and the wac would have been able to survive. The wac had the ability to issue golden tickets to fbs. When Montana and the big sky schools did not join and the wac had to quit sponsoring football it lost the ability to print golden tickets to fbs thus leaving western fcs schools with no realistic route to fbs

(10-08-2015 11:20 AM)NittanyLion Wrote:  Hmmmm ..... that article read rather mean-spirited to me.

Sportswriters need to figure out a way to write about struggling programs without making it sound like they're rooting for them to fail.

Someone asked no Big Sky schools wanted to join the WAC. The problem is this.

Weber State would have been blocked anyways. They are in the same market as Utah State.
Eastern Washington would have been blocked because they overlap the same tv markets with Idaho and Boise State.

Now, Idaho can't be choosy these days if they want to stay in FBS. They must accept Eastern Washington.

(10-08-2015 12:36 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Someone asked no Big Sky schools wanted to join the WAC. The problem is this.

Weber State would have been blocked anyways. They are in the same market as Utah State.
Eastern Washington would have been blocked because they overlap the same tv markets with Idaho and Boise State.

Now, Idaho can't be choosy these days if they want to stay in FBS. They must accept Eastern Washington.

No Big Sky schools would have been blocked. The WAC was fighting for survival and would have taken any move ups at that time but no one wanted to make the jump.

(10-08-2015 12:36 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Someone asked no Big Sky schools wanted to join the WAC. The problem is this.

Weber State would have been blocked anyways. They are in the same market as Utah State.
Eastern Washington would have been blocked because they overlap the same tv markets with Idaho and Boise State.

Now, Idaho can't be choosy these days if they want to stay in FBS. They must accept Eastern Washington.

David, only Montana and Montana St were needed at the time. They were the only ones who would be able to afford to move up and meet the FBS attendance requirements. All other schools are not financially able to move up to FBS and their attendance were so far below the 15k they wouldn't have been able to make the attendance requirements are they also would have had to spend tens of millions of $$ they didn't have to expand their football stadiums.

The Montana's are happy to be where they are at. They see Idaho floundering and know they could be in the same situation instead of competing for FCS championships.

For most of the past 20 years since Idaho moved up, with the exception of 1999 and 2000 - the WAC / Mountain West split in '99 and the Big West dropping football in 2000 - there have been at least three FBS conferences in the west. Now there are only two. Barring some MW teams going elsewhere there is no room for Idaho and NMSU to join, nor is there any desire to bring them in.

And I do not buy the whole "Big Sky FBS" movement whatsoever. Good luck getting six or seven more full members to move up (especially UC Davis, Sac State or Cal Poly - UCD and Cal Poly don't seem too eager to leave the Big West for other sports). Good luck selling the teams on not having a piece of the CFP pie for a decade. And good luck affording this while also adding 25+ scholarships (a women's sport or two which is a money drain). In short, I am skeptical of Doug Fullerton's ambition.

Over the past 40 years NMSU has had the double misfortune of poor geography and three conferences they were members in either dropping football from the highest level or dropping it altogether. They may be in the Sun Belt for football-only right now, but I don't think they would be truly happy as a full member. At their core they are a western school. I have no issues with the SBC schools whatsoever but I don't believe their true peers are Troy, South Alabama, Coastal Carolina, Appalachian State or Texas State. It's more along the lines of Utah State, UNLV, Long Beach State, UC Santa Barbara and Hawaii. Unfortunately there is just no room for them in the MW, and they have yet to indicate they would willingly return to the BW.

In short, they are stuck. The American and C-USA are not interested. The Sun Belt made its decision when they chose to go with Coastal Carolina. NMSU would never accept the FCS Southland or Big Sky (I'm guessing they wouldn't go for the Missouri Valley either), and if they drop football altogether their geographic headache is doubled. Because of all this they will keep going in some hopes that a western FBS conference will come calling.

(10-07-2015 09:19 PM)hawghiggs Wrote:  New Mexico state should probably an FCS program.

NMSU should just drop football. They're in a lightly populated area, the second program of New Mexico and second most popular program within 50 miles (UTEP). They have a solid basketball history. Focus on that.

Why is New Mexico State playing Ole Miss -- or anyone else?

It is called "Survival Money" $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

(10-08-2015 02:26 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  Over the past 40 years NMSU has had the double misfortune of poor geography and three conferences they were members in either dropping football from the highest level or dropping it altogether. They may be in the Sun Belt for football-only right now, but I don't think they would be truly happy as a full member. At their core they are a western school. I have no issues with the SBC schools whatsoever but I don't believe their true peers are Troy, South Alabama, Coastal Carolina, Appalachian State or Texas State. It's more along the lines of Utah State, UNLV, Long Beach State, UC Santa Barbara and Hawaii. Unfortunately there is just no room for them in the MW, and they have yet to indicate they would willingly return to the BW.

In short, they are stuck. The American and C-USA are not interested. The Sun Belt made its decision when they chose to go with Coastal Carolina. NMSU would never accept the FCS Southland or Big Sky (I'm guessing they wouldn't go for the Missouri Valley either), and if they drop football altogether their geographic headache is doubled. Because of all this they will keep going in some hopes that a western FBS conference will come calling.

If Drake had stayed scholarship, Wichita St kept football, and / or West Texas A&M had not dropped back to DII, NMSU would have been perfectly positioned, as the MVC would have been a successor the the Southwest castoffs. The cards haven't fell right for NMSU, like they did for Utah St, Baylor, or even Tulsa.

(10-08-2015 02:01 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  For most of the past 20 years since Idaho moved up, with the exception of 1999 and 2000 - the WAC / Mountain West split in '99 and the Big West dropping football in 2000 - there have been at least three FBS conferences in the west. Now there are only two. Barring some MW teams going elsewhere there is no room for Idaho and NMSU to join, nor is there any desire to bring them in.

And I do not buy the whole "Big Sky FBS" movement whatsoever. Good luck getting six or seven more full members to move up (especially UC Davis, Sac State or Cal Poly - UCD and Cal Poly don't seem too eager to leave the Big West for other sports). Good luck selling the teams on not having a piece of the CFP pie for a decade. And good luck affording this while also adding 25+ scholarships (a women's sport or two which is a money drain). In short, I am skeptical of Doug Fullerton's ambition.

Hilarious that you buy a Big West football movement, though your commish hates the idea.

(10-08-2015 04:59 PM)NoDak Wrote:  If Drake had stayed scholarship, Wichita St kept football, and / or West Texas A&M had not dropped back to DII, NMSU would have been perfectly positioned, as the MVC would have been a successor the the Southwest castoffs. The cards haven't fell right for NMSU, like they did for Utah St, Baylor, or even Tulsa.

Yep.

As it is currently constituted, the Southland conference is not appealing to New Mexico State.

However --- and this "what if" was briefly discussed here back in August --- what if the Southland Conference had not JUST missed meeting the requirements for the entire conference to stay D-1 back in 1982.

So even though the MVC missed the requirements in 1982 --- had the Southland met the requirements, there would have been an opportunity for Wichita State/Drake/West Texas A&M/New Mexico State to migrate over THERE, joining the likes of Texas-Arlington, ULL, Arkansas State, McNeese State, Lamar and Louisiana Tech.

That conference would have been very similar to the "Sun Belt Conference created in 2002" --- except 20 years earlier, of course. And with enough "critical mass" that they'd never have to expand to the east of Louisiana/Arkansas.

Didn't happen, of course. NMSU is geographically challenged, of course, but they've also been a bit unlucky in external circumstances over the years.

(10-08-2015 05:01 PM)NoDak Wrote:  Hilarious that you buy a Big West football movement, though your commish hates the idea.

I don't buy a BW football movement. Just that it wouldn't take much to make it happen. The BW is halfway there right now with Davis, Cal Poly and Sac State (who will join the BW in all sports if it ever decided to sponsor football). All the conference would need is two or three more teams who can be fb-only members and place their other sports in the WAC.


Cal Poly
UC Davis
Sac State
Northern Colorado?
Eastern Washington?
Southern Utah??
Portland State?

It's a win-win-win for all. There's an additional football conference in the west with an extra bid to the NCAA playoffs. The BW brings in a 10th member and adds no additional travel with Sac State; the door is still open for Portland State if they want in as a full member with Seattle U a natural #12. They can still play the Montana's, Weber State, North Dakota, whoever ooc. And the WAC picks up a couple of warm bodies.

How is that more hilarious than Doug Fullerton's FBS Big Sky?

(10-08-2015 05:34 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  

(10-08-2015 05:01 PM)NoDak Wrote:  Hilarious that you buy a Big West football movement, though your commish hates the idea.

I don't buy a BW football movement. Just that it wouldn't take much to make it happen. The BW is halfway there right now with Davis, Cal Poly and Sac State (who will join the BW in all sports if it ever decided to sponsor football). All the conference would need is two or three more teams who can be fb-only members and place their other sports in the WAC.


Cal Poly
UC Davis
Sac State
Northern Colorado?
Eastern Washington?
Southern Utah??
Portland State?

It's a win-win-win for all. There's an additional football conference in the west with an extra bid to the NCAA playoffs. The BW brings in a 10th member and adds no additional travel with Sac State; the door is still open for Portland State if they want in as a full member with Seattle U a natural #12. They can still play the Montana's, Weber State, North Dakota, whoever ooc. And the WAC picks up a couple of warm bodies.

How is that more hilarious than Doug Fullerton's FBS Big Sky?

No one officially involved with the Big West has mentioned anything.

Fullerton and the Idaho AD and number of stadium expansion plans have said FBS is more than a possibility.

(10-08-2015 01:39 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  

(10-08-2015 12:36 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Someone asked no Big Sky schools wanted to join the WAC. The problem is this.

Weber State would have been blocked anyways. They are in the same market as Utah State.
Eastern Washington would have been blocked because they overlap the same tv markets with Idaho and Boise State.

Now, Idaho can't be choosy these days if they want to stay in FBS. They must accept Eastern Washington.

David, only Montana and Montana St were needed at the time. They were the only ones who would be able to afford to move up and meet the FBS attendance requirements. All other schools are not financially able to move up to FBS and their attendance were so far below the 15k they wouldn't have been able to make the attendance requirements are they also would have had to spend tens of millions of $$ they didn't have to expand their football stadiums.

The Montana's are happy to be where they are at. They see Idaho floundering and know they could be in the same situation instead of competing for FCS championships.

Eastern Washington is making some upgrades to their stadium and all that right now. They are adding seats. Have you noticed they have been playing a lot of PAC 12 teams lately? They are getting extra cash to help them to become attractive. Eastern Washington could be the next Boise State if they could move up.

(10-08-2015 05:42 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(10-08-2015 05:34 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  

(10-08-2015 05:01 PM)NoDak Wrote:  Hilarious that you buy a Big West football movement, though your commish hates the idea.

I don't buy a BW football movement. Just that it wouldn't take much to make it happen. The BW is halfway there right now with Davis, Cal Poly and Sac State (who will join the BW in all sports if it ever decided to sponsor football). All the conference would need is two or three more teams who can be fb-only members and place their other sports in the WAC.


Cal Poly
UC Davis
Sac State
Northern Colorado?
Eastern Washington?
Southern Utah??
Portland State?

It's a win-win-win for all. There's an additional football conference in the west with an extra bid to the NCAA playoffs. The BW brings in a 10th member and adds no additional travel with Sac State; the door is still open for Portland State if they want in as a full member with Seattle U a natural #12. They can still play the Montana's, Weber State, North Dakota, whoever ooc. And the WAC picks up a couple of warm bodies.

How is that more hilarious than Doug Fullerton's FBS Big Sky?

No one officially involved with the Big West has mentioned anything.

Fullerton and the Idaho AD and number of stadium expansion plans have said FBS is more than a possibility.

There are some talks that several California schools could add football. Some of them are in the Big West Conference.

Long Beach State
Fullerton State
Northridge State
Even the President said at Cal-Irvine that they might have to look into it in the future themselves.

You got Azusa Pacific that could add another 5000 seats to reach 15,000.
Humboldt State has football.
Dixie State could see this as a cost saver playing mostly California schools.
Grand Canyon U. and Utah Valley been talking about adding football.
East Bay State is another that has plans in place if they get the green light.
Lets not forget Cal-San Diego as well.
San Diego U. might see this as a better solution and start offering scholarships to play in this football conference than playing the Pioneer.

If we are going complete fantasy, I wouldnt mind seeing a 3rd tier western FBS conference reform composing

North Dakota
North Dakota St
South Dakota
South Dakota St
Montana
Montana St
Idaho
New Mexico St
Portland St
Sacramento St
Cal Poly
UC Davis

(10-08-2015 07:16 PM)solohawks Wrote:  If we are going complete fantasy, I wouldnt mind seeing a 3rd tier western FBS conference reform composing

North Dakota
North Dakota St
South Dakota
South Dakota St
Montana
Montana St
Idaho
New Mexico St
Portland St
Sacramento St
Cal Poly
UC Davis

I know Montana said no to Texas schools since most of them are eastern Texas. Would they be upset if West Texas A&M be part of the equation? Portland State may have troubles getting the dough to move to FBS. Portland State could wind up shutting the football program down.

(10-08-2015 07:24 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(10-08-2015 07:16 PM)solohawks Wrote:  If we are going complete fantasy, I wouldnt mind seeing a 3rd tier western FBS conference reform composing

North Dakota
North Dakota St
South Dakota
South Dakota St
Montana
Montana St
Idaho
New Mexico St
Portland St
Sacramento St
Cal Poly
UC Davis

I know Montana said no to Texas schools since most of them are eastern Texas. Would they be upset if West Texas A&M be part of the equation? Portland State may have troubles getting the dough to move to FBS. Portland State could wind up shutting the football program down.

why is it so costly for Portland ST to play FCS.
There are FCS schools with three thousand seat stadiums.
Renting the city owned soccer stadium can't be that expensive.
They are ranked and beat WSU this year.
They need FBS because FCS struggles in a big city too many options.

(10-08-2015 07:51 PM)MJG Wrote:  

(10-08-2015 07:24 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(10-08-2015 07:16 PM)solohawks Wrote:  If we are going complete fantasy, I wouldnt mind seeing a 3rd tier western FBS conference reform composing

North Dakota
North Dakota St
South Dakota
South Dakota St
Montana
Montana St
Idaho
New Mexico St
Portland St
Sacramento St
Cal Poly
UC Davis

I know Montana said no to Texas schools since most of them are eastern Texas. Would they be upset if West Texas A&M be part of the equation? Portland State may have troubles getting the dough to move to FBS. Portland State could wind up shutting the football program down.

why is it so costly for Portland ST to play FCS.
There are FCS schools with three thousand seat stadiums.
Renting the city owned soccer stadium can't be that expensive.
They are ranked and beat WSU this year.
They need FBS because FCS struggles in a big city too many options.

Portland St plays North Texas this weekend, and the Viks are favored.

Having beat Wazzu, they could be one the few FCS teams to beat two FBS teams in the same season.

FBS will definitely raise their profile.