(08-24-2015 09:09 AM)TheRevSWT Wrote:  

(08-24-2015 08:55 AM)Buzz Lightyear Lite Wrote:  We will always debate religion and those chaplains on those teams may impact a player a coach or even the team tag alongs.......Not often with words but with their actions. My thanks is to God for having players, coaches, and chaplains who know this in their hearts and live it out for others. However their being present WILL NOT alter the minds and hearts unless the individual wants it to do so. To restrict them would not help anyone accept those who are worried the State is trying to convince an individual to do something that is voluntary.....There is no pressure to be Christian to be first team....Because if there is .....the coach is not Christian either and should not be listened to at all in THAT AREA...I guarantee that if the Chaplains are who they say they are they love and respect your son or daughter just the same be they a believer or not. And they will help them in anyway they can either way.

I think it's a pretty much accepted notion that if the coach is deciding playing time based on religion, he's not part of any real religion.

I also think that is the crux of most of the folks' against it argument (not all... because there are nutjobs on all sides of this fence... the pro chaplain and anti chaplain both), it's what those fringe jobbers are doing.

Sadly today, we have to deal with the lowest common denominator. It's why we have to have warnings on hair dryers not to use in the shower, why people can sue McDonald's for basically serving them HOT coffee. It's why Acetone has to have a warning label not to drink it.

Dang... now that I think of it, none of this junk is the problem with the US today... It's actually just lawyers. Lawyers telling everyone it's not their fault for being stupid, it's everyone else that is at fault.

Can't drink Acetone? Thanks for the heads up . . .

Just doing my part to keep America safe, my man.

True Story: in college, I did screen printing (we used Acetone to clean the screens). OSHA comes in, and we decide to mess with him. Told the guy when we'd come in hungover, we'd take a cap full of acetone and mix it with milk to cure it. worked like a champ!

Next day, we have the morning meeting, and the owner wraps up with "and whichever of you a-holes is drinking the acetone, STOP IT!"

Was better than when we'd make the new guy find us the neon black for shirts.

Pops used to say, If you wanna get along with folks, Never talk Politics, never talk Religion, and Never ask a Woman her true age . . . .

As to Religion, I myself am a recovering Catholic . . . . I do still pray, typically every time my Bobcats take the Field and/or Court . . . . There are No Atheists in Fox Holes . . . . Or during Football Season . . . Lawd, I know you gotta a lot on your plate, but I hope you're listening . . . .

(08-24-2015 10:04 AM)TheRevSWT Wrote:  Just doing my part to keep America safe, my man.

True Story: in college, I did screen printing (we used Acetone to clean the screens). OSHA comes in, and we decide to mess with him. Told the guy when we'd come in hungover, we'd take a cap full of acetone and mix it with milk to cure it. worked like a champ!

Next day, we have the morning meeting, and the owner wraps up with "and whichever of you a-holes is drinking the acetone, STOP IT!"

Was better than when we'd make the new guy find us the neon black for shirts.

Thanks, needed the laugh . . .

(08-22-2015 12:47 AM)Check Yosef Wrote:  I'm not sure, and yes, if the chaplain is funded by their federal or state endowment that would be considered the state(meaning either federal or an actual state in this circumstance) directly promoting one religion which goes against the basic principle of separation of religion and state

"“chaplains are common in many public institutions, including the US Congress. The football team chaplain isn’t an Auburn employee, and participation in activities he leads are voluntary,”" - Auburn

(08-24-2015 08:17 AM)Usajags Wrote:  The main issue in this is not rather or not prayer should be said, but how offended people believe that they should be shielded from the offensive. In the setting we are discussing, the locker room, if someone is playing music I don't like or agree with, do I have the right to make them turn it off???

The end result is people in this politically correct world are just to damn sensitive to everyone else's opinions and beliefs. And with that comes the, "You said something I found offensive, so therefore you must lose everything you have earned in your life" mentality.

Get over it, if you are offended then what just happened wasn't for you, it was for the other 75% of the population that wasn't offended. I'm tired of the loud 10% of the people that were offended by whatever they are offended by trying to tell the other 90% of the people they can't do something. If you don't like it don't participate, no one makes you, and if there are repercussions for your choices, you must deal with that, the same goes in the other directions. If you do participate, and there is someone that disagrees with you and decides to not do business with you because of your participation, then that is there choice and the result of the choices you have made. That is the bases of a free world and free economy.

The separation of church and state was to allow religion to flourish, not to stamp it out. Many are using the 1st amendment to try to keep people from practicing their religion in public places and that is a perversion of the 1st amendment.

(08-24-2015 02:15 AM)Godzilla Wrote:  

(08-23-2015 11:10 PM)The4thOption Wrote:  

(08-23-2015 05:43 PM)Godzilla Wrote:  Oh so being gay is a choice? Well then why don't you choose to be gay right now, just for a little while... Now that you have chosen to be gay why don't you tell us all about how attractive you now find other men. Better be careful though if you don't say your sorry to you're "living God" imaginary friend he might burn you in a lake of fire for eternity... because you know... he loves you. This is the danger I'm talking about when you try an establish a non secular state, reason and logic go out the window and religious dogma reigns. So yeah I would be out of here quick fast and in a hurry. If a state funded public university is paying these religious leaders to come they need to stop and ask a booster to pay for the services that way they can have their cake and eat it too.

And yea, it's a choice. And it's my right and choice to believe that it is a choice. But, hey.. I'm not forcing that belief on you.

We can agree on this: "reason and logic go out the window ", that's happening all over the place these days. And it's what is happening with people sticking their noses into what these teams choose to do or believe. It's a public University, that doesn't mean these people have to be non-believers. It isn't establishing a non secular state. Is that the real fear here? Is anyone afraid that teams having a Chaplin (which has been going on for a loooooong loooooong time!) is leading us towards a government that is going to force us to believe in God and go to Church or go to jail? Well, it hasn't happened yet! And in fact, we seem to be heading in the other direction, away from God. There is no reason to believe that there are any problems being caused by team Chaplins, and you are right.. all logic HAS gone out the window.

Religious influences have been a part of our Government since the beginning. I don't have a problem with where the funds come from. I assure you that enough people who agree with having a Chaplin, have paid enough taxes to cover that guy's salary without counting your tax dollars.

There is a major difference between this and forcing a belief on someone. They aren't requiring participation from any team member. They are not persecuting or discriminating against anyone, EVEN non-believers by having a Chaplin. Now that might be offending someone! But then again, if you aren't offending ANYONE these days.... you're probably not doing it right, or anything at all. Heck, I'm offended that your offended!


And here is an old saying that has never made any sense to me:
"have their cake and eat it too".... What the heck is the point in having cake if you can't eat it?

And just out of curiosity.... Where would you go?
"So yeah I would be out of here quick fast and in a hurry"

You seem to have a problem empathizing with minority groups, neither issue that has been discussed affects me in any way but I can at least put myself in their shoes. Reverse either to be negative toward your point of view and all the sudden it's an outrage.

What if you and your wife were not allowed to get married and access to all the legal rights and protections that entails because the government thought heterosexuality was gross and wrong and that you should stop choosing to be straight and choose to be gay and reproduce safely in a test tube like everyone else. It is clearly stated in their new gay testament bible so it has to be true. You would think that is completely ridiculous and extremely discriminatory and you would be right. Sucks when that shoe is on the other foot eh?

I don't think anyone is actually afraid that a Chaplin talking to a bunch of college players is going to have a direct causal effect leading to the government abolishing the first amendment and adopting an official religion as your straw man argument would suggest. The point is people don't want their kids being preached to by religious leaders they don't follow. Would you be just fine if instead of Chaplins it were Imams being provided by a state funded school preaching Islam to your Middle school and HS kids without any sort of parental oversight at all? Before every game he led the team in Islamic prayers and asked Allah for glory on the football field. Even if you didn't participate you would be forced to sit thought it anyway( If you think you can just get up and walk out of a team huddle or meeting because someone starts a short prayer without pissing off the coaches you are crazy). I don't know about you but that would make me uncomfortable. Just like Christianity being preached to Middle and HS kids in public institutions, I'm sure, makes Jews and Muslims and Atheist uncomfortable. If you want a specific religious influence it is your decision to go to a private school that will fill your needs but keep the bias out of public institutions. Christianity is not some special religion that gets special treatment and the founding fathers went out of their way to make that clear. It's just another religion and people that follow other religions don't want it shoved in their faces.

You can't have your cake and eat it too is pretty much self explanatory. You cannot simultaneously enjoy having and admiring the beauty of a cake while you are eating and enjoying the taste of said cake. In this situation it applies to the affect that public institutions can allow a specific religion's preachings without violating the constitutional precedent of separating church and state because it was provided by an outside source. I can't believe I just explained that.

I would probably go to Germany it is absolutely beautiful, they have a great education system, strong economy, Democratic governments, freedoms that were just taken from me in America, and crazy women. Scandinavian countries seem nice but that is a special kind of cold I just can't deal with, plus their language would be a struggle. Not that you care you just want to say 'Merica's the best period.

I do enjoy political discussions but I don't want to further muddle this thread with massive post. If you would like me to respond to anything else on these issues feel free to send me a message.

OK, short & sweet.

First, I understood the fact that once you eat cake... It's gone. Well, if you eat it all. Simply saying, if you are not going to eat it.. What's the point. Beauty,?.. Saying you own cake.. Pointless.

Anyway, I can empathize with minorities. But that shouldn't change the right of a group of persons at a public place to have a voluntary activity. It's not required.

Don't see Jews and others worried about it. Just the atheist. We live in a majority Christian country, if people just can't cope with Christians being Christians in public, they are free to buy that one way ticket to Germany.

And for the record. I don't have an issue with gay couples being afforded the same rights and tax benefits (which in my experience is actually more of a marriage tax). My only issue is calling it a "Marriage".

The founding Fathers never said that we couldn't have religion at public institutions.
They didn't want government legislating religion or suppressing people exercising it. Teams have chosen to exercise what they believe, that isn't unconstitutional... Preventing is imop. And we are talking about in a locker room.

As far as people of other faiths having to set through a prayer at ball games, well again, this is a majority Christian nation. They know that, they are free to leave. Or pay to their own god at the same time. But trying to make the majority stop because a minority group doesn't like it is a load of crap. I mean I wouldn't expect to move to Iraq and have everybody stop praying in ways, places that I don't. I goto some event there, I might have to waste two minutes of my life waiting on them to do their thing. But hey, that's life. I'd Deal with it and stop crying.

As long as this:

(08-24-2015 10:31 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  "“chaplains are common in many public institutions, including the US Congress. The football team chaplain isn’t an Auburn employee, and participation in activities he leads are voluntary,”" - Auburn

Doesn't lead to this:

(08-22-2015 10:05 AM)bladhmadh Wrote:  I played on a team that's depth chart was influenced by participation in fca

I'll continue to JNGAF.

However, I reserve the right to continue to laugh at the idea that a god who exists independent of the universe, who does not change, is absolute, transcends space and time, who is self-aware, who is all-knowing, ever present, and can accomplish whatever the gods desires to accomplish, will suddenly pick sides in a football game and ensure the WR scores a TD on a short slant pass.

(08-24-2015 10:48 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  As long as this:

(08-24-2015 10:31 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  "“chaplains are common in many public institutions, including the US Congress. The football team chaplain isn’t an Auburn employee, and participation in activities he leads are voluntary,”" - Auburn

Doesn't lead to this:

(08-22-2015 10:05 AM)bladhmadh Wrote:  I played on a team that's depth chart was influenced by participation in fca

I'll continue to JNGAF.

However, I reserve the right to continue to laugh at the idea that a god who exists independent of the universe, who does not change, is absolute, transcends space and time, who is self-aware, who is all-knowing, ever present, and can accomplish whatever the gods desires to accomplish, will suddenly pick sides in a football game and ensure the WR scores a TD on a short slant pass.

this we easily agree on.....it's like silly puddy in scope....

we are the devil to some....

transition is never easy....

(08-24-2015 10:48 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  As long as this:

(08-24-2015 10:31 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  "“chaplains are common in many public institutions, including the US Congress. The football team chaplain isn’t an Auburn employee, and participation in activities he leads are voluntary,”" - Auburn

Doesn't lead to this:

(08-22-2015 10:05 AM)bladhmadh Wrote:  I played on a team that's depth chart was influenced by participation in fca

I'll continue to JNGAF.

However, I reserve the right to continue to laugh at the idea that a god who exists independent of the universe, who does not change, is absolute, transcends space and time, who is self-aware, who is all-knowing, ever present, and can accomplish whatever the gods desires to accomplish, will suddenly pick sides in a football game and ensure the WR scores a TD on a short slant pass.

So long as one recognized that a team losing does not mean "God hates them" then it's not absurd. Whats absurd is Atheist assuming me praying for something, even something as silly as a win* means that I expect God to say yes to my prayer.

* - I don't think I have ever prayed for a sporting event

In fact, for a God to care about something as insignificant as football, or a sparrow, he would have to be all-knowing, ever present, and all powerful. If her were limited he might have to pick and choose what to exercise his sovereignty over.

"Are not five sparrows sold for two cents? Yet not one of them is forgotten before God. Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows."

(08-24-2015 10:31 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(08-22-2015 12:47 AM)Check Yosef Wrote:  I'm not sure, and yes, if the chaplain is funded by their federal or state endowment that would be considered the state(meaning either federal or an actual state in this circumstance) directly promoting one religion which goes against the basic principle of separation of religion and state

"“chaplains are common in many public institutions, including the US Congress. The football team chaplain isn’t an Auburn employee, and participation in activities he leads are voluntary,”" - Auburn

But he holds the official endorsement of the Auburn administration. And holds special access, which he uses to promote one faith and morality view, to the exclusion of others.

That's the problem.

(08-24-2015 10:48 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  However, I reserve the right to continue to laugh at the idea that a god who exists independent of the universe, who does not change, is absolute, transcends space and time, who is self-aware, who is all-knowing, ever present, and can accomplish whatever the gods desires to accomplish, will suddenly pick sides in a football game and ensure the WR scores a TD on a short slant pass.

That last bit made me recall an NFL game a few years back. Stevie Johnson dropped a sure TD pass in overtime and the Bills went on to lose. Afterwards, he went on Twitter and asked why God would allow him to drop that pass.

I couldn't believe the flak he caught for that. And I think it leads into the argument many make about 'just leaving or doing your own thing' when it comes to their differing religious views. No one bats an eye when someone credits their great performance to God or cites God-given ability for their stardom... And Johnson didn't even stray from that. He just played the other side of the coin and it was still too much for some people to take.

Personally, I never had an issue with playing on a team that had a chaplain and I never felt singled out when I was one of the few guys who wasn't at school early for the FCA meetings. But I did feel a bit uneasy when I started covering high school games and ran into a few schools that had 1-2 minute long prayers spoken over the P.A. system before games.

(08-24-2015 10:59 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(08-24-2015 10:48 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  As long as this:

(08-24-2015 10:31 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  "“chaplains are common in many public institutions, including the US Congress. The football team chaplain isn’t an Auburn employee, and participation in activities he leads are voluntary,”" - Auburn

Doesn't lead to this:

(08-22-2015 10:05 AM)bladhmadh Wrote:  I played on a team that's depth chart was influenced by participation in fca

I'll continue to JNGAF.

However, I reserve the right to continue to laugh at the idea that a god who exists independent of the universe, who does not change, is absolute, transcends space and time, who is self-aware, who is all-knowing, ever present, and can accomplish whatever the gods desires to accomplish, will suddenly pick sides in a football game and ensure the WR scores a TD on a short slant pass.

So long as one recognized that a team losing does not mean "God hates them" then it's not absurd. Whats absurd is Atheist assuming me praying for something, even something as silly as a win* means that I expect God to say yes to my prayer.

* - I don't think I have ever prayed for a sporting event

In fact, for a God to care about something as insignificant as football, or a sparrow, he would have to be all-knowing, ever present, and all powerful. If her were limited he might have to pick and choose what to exercise his sovereignty over.

"Are not five sparrows sold for two cents? Yet not one of them is forgotten before God. Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows."

if one believes in literal scripture....yeah...

if one believes in the son, the father, and that holy spirit ghost guy thingy....well, then it becomes a pickle....

edit: did I leave out the allah literals....my bad...

(08-24-2015 11:31 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(08-24-2015 10:31 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(08-22-2015 12:47 AM)Check Yosef Wrote:  I'm not sure, and yes, if the chaplain is funded by their federal or state endowment that would be considered the state(meaning either federal or an actual state in this circumstance) directly promoting one religion which goes against the basic principle of separation of religion and state

"“chaplains are common in many public institutions, including the US Congress. The football team chaplain isn’t an Auburn employee, and participation in activities he leads are voluntary,”" - Auburn

But he holds the official endorsement of the Auburn administration. And holds special access, which he uses to promote one faith and morality view, to the exclusion of others.

That's the problem.

only to atheist fanatics... The US Congress has had a chaplain since day one! Obviously the separation of church and state was not intended to squash a christian chaplain serving a gov't body.

(08-24-2015 11:52 AM)CC Eagle Wrote:  

(08-24-2015 10:48 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  However, I reserve the right to continue to laugh at the idea that a god who exists independent of the universe, who does not change, is absolute, transcends space and time, who is self-aware, who is all-knowing, ever present, and can accomplish whatever the gods desires to accomplish, will suddenly pick sides in a football game and ensure the WR scores a TD on a short slant pass.

That last bit made me recall an NFL game a few years back. Stevie Johnson dropped a sure TD pass in overtime and the Bills went on to lose. Afterwards, he went on Twitter and asked why God would allow him to drop that pass.

I couldn't believe the flak he caught for that. And I think it leads into the argument many make about 'just leaving or doing your own thing' when it comes to their differing religious views. No one bats an eye when someone credits their great performance to God or cites God-given ability for their stardom... And Johnson didn't even stray from that. He just played the other side of the coin and it was still too much for some people to take.

Personally, I never had an issue with playing on a team that had a chaplain and I never felt singled out when I was one of the few guys who wasn't at school early for the FCA meetings. But I did feel a bit uneasy when I started covering high school games and ran into a few schools that had 1-2 minute long prayers spoken over the P.A. system before games.

one learns to watch the people that bow their heads and laugh internally.....or play pretend games...my arse just finally started to walk away.....

(08-24-2015 12:01 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(08-24-2015 11:31 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(08-24-2015 10:31 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(08-22-2015 12:47 AM)Check Yosef Wrote:  I'm not sure, and yes, if the chaplain is funded by their federal or state endowment that would be considered the state(meaning either federal or an actual state in this circumstance) directly promoting one religion which goes against the basic principle of separation of religion and state

"“chaplains are common in many public institutions, including the US Congress. The football team chaplain isn’t an Auburn employee, and participation in activities he leads are voluntary,”" - Auburn

But he holds the official endorsement of the Auburn administration. And holds special access, which he uses to promote one faith and morality view, to the exclusion of others.

That's the problem.

only to atheist fanatics... The US Congress has had a chaplain since day one! Obviously the separation of church and state was not intended to squash a christian chaplain serving a gov't body.

trust me....we just say, "okey dokey....but if you start writing laws...."

(08-24-2015 11:52 AM)CC Eagle Wrote:  

(08-24-2015 10:48 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  However, I reserve the right to continue to laugh at the idea that a god who exists independent of the universe, who does not change, is absolute, transcends space and time, who is self-aware, who is all-knowing, ever present, and can accomplish whatever the gods desires to accomplish, will suddenly pick sides in a football game and ensure the WR scores a TD on a short slant pass.

That last bit made me recall an NFL game a few years back. Stevie Johnson dropped a sure TD pass in overtime and the Bills went on to lose. Afterwards, he went on Twitter and asked why God would allow him to drop that pass.

I couldn't believe the flak he caught for that. And I think it leads into the argument many make about 'just leaving or doing your own thing' when it comes to their differing religious views. No one bats an eye when someone credits their great performance to God or cites God-given ability for their stardom... And Johnson didn't even stray from that. He just played the other side of the coin and it was still too much for some people to take.

Personally, I never had an issue with playing on a team that had a chaplain and I never felt singled out when I was one of the few guys who wasn't at school early for the FCA meetings. But I did feel a bit uneasy when I started covering high school games and ran into a few schools that had 1-2 minute long prayers spoken over the P.A. system before games.

There are plenty of people who feel that FCA is mandatory if you want to move up the depth chart...And support of the FCA is also mandatory if you want to get that coaching job. Or you want access to teams as a reporter.

And the FCA is just the most prominent of the "Muscular Evangelism" groups.

Its not a problem everywhere, but there's more than enough people who think that the FCA creates problems that there's probably justification to seriously consider removing their special access and endorsement by taxpayer supported schools.

--

The bigger is issue is that endorsement is given if you provide exclusive access.

--

If the students want to do their own program, fine. But it should be independent of any national group, not endorsed or attended by staff, and should not create a 'you have to be evangelical' to be a part of the team. It should be passive in its scope "anyone who wants to join for a evangelical bible group meet at x", not "now the chaplain will lead you all in prayer and will promote evangelical events"

(08-24-2015 11:58 AM)stinkfist Wrote:  if one believes in literal scripture....yeah...

if one believes in the son, the father, and that holy spirit ghost guy thingy....well, then it becomes a pickle....

The two do not contradict each other...

Genesis 1:26 - "Let *US* make man in *OUR* image" God refers to Himself using plural constructions.

It's also worth noting that Elohim is in the plural form.

Thanks for playing..

(08-24-2015 12:03 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  If the students want to do their own program, fine. But it should be independent of any national group, not endorsed or attended by staff, and should not create a 'you have to be evangelical' to be a part of the team. It should be passive in its scope "anyone who wants to join for a evangelical bible group meet at x", not "now the chaplain will lead you all in prayer and will promote evangelical events"

As a probably useless data point, in my time as an athlete at NIU the FCA and other campus crusades held zero influence on my team, and I don't recall it being a big deal anywhere else.

However, to the point of the article, I was certainly never in a huddle before a football game....

(08-24-2015 12:15 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(08-24-2015 12:03 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  If the students want to do their own program, fine. But it should be independent of any national group, not endorsed or attended by staff, and should not create a 'you have to be evangelical' to be a part of the team. It should be passive in its scope "anyone who wants to join for a evangelical bible group meet at x", not "now the chaplain will lead you all in prayer and will promote evangelical events"

As a probably useless data point, in my time as an athlete at NIU the FCA and other campus crusades held zero influence on my team, and I don't recall it being a big deal anywhere else.

However, to the point of the article, I was certainly never in a huddle before a football game....

It doesn't surprise me that it wasn't an issue at one school in Northern Illinois.