(08-22-2015 10:15 PM)blunderbuss Wrote:  

(08-22-2015 12:15 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(08-22-2015 09:02 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(08-20-2015 09:42 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(08-20-2015 05:30 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  Not if you are a good teacher.

I'm a damn good teacher.

I bet you work with some schitty ones though. Why are they allowed to remain and taint your profession? They don't get fired for being schitty... They get moved to Administration instead of being removed from the system. IMO...This a big part of the problem with our public education system.

It isn't any different than any other profession. Some teachers are better than others but that isn't a reason to fire them. Secondly, you need a masters to become administration so no, bad teachers do not get moved to admin.

How often do the ones that flat out suck get fired? I've been on this job for a little over a year and I've seen 4 co-workers get canned because they weren't productive enough.

I've seen plenty of teachers not have their contracts renewed during their first three years of employment. I've seen plenty of others get moved around to the point that they resign. But schools are faced with the reality that there is a teacher shortage so the question becomes, is a school better off letting a teacher that isn't performing up to standard go, or are they better off working with that teacher to make them competent? If the replacement is an unqualified substitute, or a lateral entry hire, I would say it is better to work with the teacher. I've seen teaching positions go unfilled at the beginning of the year and a series of substitutes used until a hire could be made, sometimes for the entire year. I've seen teachers leave for a higher paying position in another district or retire during the year and a warm body hired that was totally out of their depth. It isn't pretty.

They get fired all the time in districts that can afford replacements. You get what you pay for.

(08-23-2015 07:17 AM)dfarr Wrote:  

(08-22-2015 11:41 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-22-2015 09:21 PM)dfarr Wrote:  $40k salary for 9 months work sounds pretty good to me. That's about what I made as a staff nurse, but working 12 months with some OT thrown in there.

$40k for 9 months isn't really competitive with many professional industries (engineering, tech, finance, consulting, etc). That's $53k annually if it is extrapolated to 12 months, but what part time job will you find that pays the same per month rate for 3 months of work? So you're really making $40k and some change for a year of work if you can find a decent part time gig for 3 months.

If you're looking to recruit highly qualified people, you're going to need to regularly offer competitive salaries, which are not $40k.

And the average salary for a staff nurse is $69k per Glassdoor. Start offering that sort of average teaching salary, and you will see better candidates apply for teaching jobs. You will actually interest people with engineering degrees such as myself, people who enjoy many aspects of teaching, but have no urge being paid so little.

$69k is bs. Maybe in Cali or some remote location. I started out slightly about $20/hr. If the average is $69k then there's no point in people becoming NPs.

$40k for working 9 months is competative. It's more than firemen, police officers, EMTs, most nurses. People may look at $40k and thumb their nose, but when they add all the time off plus the good benefits, it's not a bad gig.

Sources: http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/staff-...KO0,11.htm

http://www1.salary.com/Staff-Nurse-RN-salary.html

So unless you can provide sources supporting your assertion regarding nurses, stop using anecdotal evidence.

Oh, and the average firefighter wage is $47k. Look, I can provide more sources! http://work.chron.com/much-average-fullt...-8730.html

And pretty much the same thing for cops! http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=...cer/Salary

The only one you're right about is EMTs, who make on average $32k (http://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/mobile...dics.htm).

But I don't really get why people ever compare the wages of one job to others, especially when they are on the low wage side. Shouldn't we be arguing that EMTs are underpaid given the responsibility they are given, their training necessary, and the stress they must endure, rather than arguing that teachers shouldn't be paid more because EMTs make less?

(08-20-2015 09:19 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(08-20-2015 12:42 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  The money is mostly misspent, in my opinion, on administration. Administrations that are largely made up of unqualified teachers who were put there to get them out of the classroom and people who really know nothing about what it means to teach.
To illustrate my point, there are as many BMWs and Benzes in the Montgomery Public School's main administration building as there are at the parking deck where I park, mostly law firms. The nicer the cars, the crappier the district.

Absolutely.

yep....humans are humans....

education is one of the few where a forced psyche injection works....we are going in the wrong direction now....

this country gets all freaked the fk out about a handful of terrorists killing a few to a a few thousand while they biatch about the disintegration of education....

I just can't wrap my arms around that.....

(08-22-2015 01:04 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(08-22-2015 12:15 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(08-22-2015 09:02 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(08-20-2015 09:42 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(08-20-2015 05:30 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  Not if you are a good teacher.

I'm a damn good teacher.

I bet you work with some schitty ones though. Why are they allowed to remain and taint your profession? They don't get fired for being schitty... They get moved to Administration instead of being removed from the system. IMO...This a big part of the problem with our public education system.

It isn't any different than any other profession. Some teachers are better than others but that isn't a reason to fire them. Secondly, you need a masters to become administration so no, bad teachers do not get moved to admin.

There is a teacher shortage that will only get worse. Replacing a poor teacher doesn't get you anywhere if the replacement is a downgrade.

Those that can do, those that can't teach. Those that can't teach, teach PE. Those that can't teach PE become administrators.

Have you ever taught? Plenty of successful people have tried it and failed. It's a very difficult job. Don't look down on those that teach.

(08-23-2015 11:45 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(08-22-2015 01:04 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(08-22-2015 12:15 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(08-22-2015 09:02 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(08-20-2015 09:42 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  I'm a damn good teacher.

I bet you work with some schitty ones though. Why are they allowed to remain and taint your profession? They don't get fired for being schitty... They get moved to Administration instead of being removed from the system. IMO...This a big part of the problem with our public education system.

It isn't any different than any other profession. Some teachers are better than others but that isn't a reason to fire them. Secondly, you need a masters to become administration so no, bad teachers do not get moved to admin.

There is a teacher shortage that will only get worse. Replacing a poor teacher doesn't get you anywhere if the replacement is a downgrade.

Those that can do, those that can't teach. Those that can't teach, teach PE. Those that can't teach PE become administrators.

Have you ever taught? Plenty of successful people have tried it and failed. It's a very difficult job. Don't look down on those that teach.

they suck....that's my opinion now and when I was in school....

the job doesn't pay enough to attract anything close to the best minds and thinkers....

public schools are just north of day care....

Administrators have to have a masters degree before they can even apply. I wonder how many professions require that amount of education.

(08-23-2015 12:41 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  Administrators have to have a masters degree before they can even apply. I wonder how many professions require that amount of education.

no you don't....you're lying again....you don't wonder about anything.....but you do wander in wonderment......

you're one twisted dude w/o the abide or imbibe.....

(08-23-2015 08:45 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-23-2015 07:17 AM)dfarr Wrote:  

(08-22-2015 11:41 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-22-2015 09:21 PM)dfarr Wrote:  $40k salary for 9 months work sounds pretty good to me. That's about what I made as a staff nurse, but working 12 months with some OT thrown in there.

$40k for 9 months isn't really competitive with many professional industries (engineering, tech, finance, consulting, etc). That's $53k annually if it is extrapolated to 12 months, but what part time job will you find that pays the same per month rate for 3 months of work? So you're really making $40k and some change for a year of work if you can find a decent part time gig for 3 months.

If you're looking to recruit highly qualified people, you're going to need to regularly offer competitive salaries, which are not $40k.

And the average salary for a staff nurse is $69k per Glassdoor. Start offering that sort of average teaching salary, and you will see better candidates apply for teaching jobs. You will actually interest people with engineering degrees such as myself, people who enjoy many aspects of teaching, but have no urge being paid so little.

$69k is bs. Maybe in Cali or some remote location. I started out slightly about $20/hr. If the average is $69k then there's no point in people becoming NPs.

$40k for working 9 months is competative. It's more than firemen, police officers, EMTs, most nurses. People may look at $40k and thumb their nose, but when they add all the time off plus the good benefits, it's not a bad gig.

Sources: http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/staff-...KO0,11.htm

http://www1.salary.com/Staff-Nurse-RN-salary.html

So unless you can provide sources supporting your assertion regarding nurses, stop using anecdotal evidence.

Oh, and the average firefighter wage is $47k. Look, I can provide more sources! http://work.chron.com/much-average-fullt...-8730.html

And pretty much the same thing for cops! http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=...cer/Salary

The only one you're right about is EMTs, who make on average $32k (http://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/mobile...dics.htm).

But I don't really get why people ever compare the wages of one job to others, especially when they are on the low wage side. Shouldn't we be arguing that EMTs are underpaid given the responsibility they are given, their training necessary, and the stress they must endure, rather than arguing that teachers shouldn't be paid more because EMTs make less?

It's not anecdotal when you are a nurse, work with nurses, and are friends with nurses. I'm willing to bet that I know more about nursing pay and salaries than you do since, you know, I kinda am one.

Besides $40k for 9 or 10 months equates to $48-50k for a full 12 month job. Pretty damn cush.

(08-23-2015 08:07 AM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(08-22-2015 09:21 PM)dfarr Wrote:  $40k salary for 9 months work sounds pretty good to me. That's about what I made as a staff nurse, but working 12 months with some OT thrown in there.

10 months, not 9, and no pay check for 2 months each year.

If you add up Christmas break, fall break, spring break, and the various other holidays it's closer to 9 months. Also, you can choose to have your paycheck paid either during the school year or year round (in Alabama, not sure about other states).

Looking at my local school systems calendar he teachers are there for 189 days, from July 30-May 27. So there's 2 months for the summer, then the holidays throughout the year total another month.

http://www.opelikaschools.org/pdf/2015-2...lendar.pdf

Another way to look at it is that teachers get one year off every 5 years.

(08-23-2015 02:14 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  Another way to look at it is that teachers get one year off every 5 years.

you could say that about any seasonal job.....

the 'when' doesn't matter if one can prorate the disbursement of pay...unless you go on a binger during the off-season...at that point one would be better off digging ditches year round...

still smugglin' with the other dungers? you guys still need tunnels to be dug....

I have zero clue what the relevance of your response is regarding the topic.....so I chose another path in re(inyourbutt)al

(08-23-2015 02:01 PM)dfarr Wrote:  

(08-23-2015 08:45 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-23-2015 07:17 AM)dfarr Wrote:  

(08-22-2015 11:41 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-22-2015 09:21 PM)dfarr Wrote:  $40k salary for 9 months work sounds pretty good to me. That's about what I made as a staff nurse, but working 12 months with some OT thrown in there.

$40k for 9 months isn't really competitive with many professional industries (engineering, tech, finance, consulting, etc). That's $53k annually if it is extrapolated to 12 months, but what part time job will you find that pays the same per month rate for 3 months of work? So you're really making $40k and some change for a year of work if you can find a decent part time gig for 3 months.

If you're looking to recruit highly qualified people, you're going to need to regularly offer competitive salaries, which are not $40k.

And the average salary for a staff nurse is $69k per Glassdoor. Start offering that sort of average teaching salary, and you will see better candidates apply for teaching jobs. You will actually interest people with engineering degrees such as myself, people who enjoy many aspects of teaching, but have no urge being paid so little.

$69k is bs. Maybe in Cali or some remote location. I started out slightly about $20/hr. If the average is $69k then there's no point in people becoming NPs.

$40k for working 9 months is competative. It's more than firemen, police officers, EMTs, most nurses. People may look at $40k and thumb their nose, but when they add all the time off plus the good benefits, it's not a bad gig.

Sources: http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/staff-...KO0,11.htm

http://www1.salary.com/Staff-Nurse-RN-salary.html

So unless you can provide sources supporting your assertion regarding nurses, stop using anecdotal evidence.

Oh, and the average firefighter wage is $47k. Look, I can provide more sources! http://work.chron.com/much-average-fullt...-8730.html

And pretty much the same thing for cops! http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=...cer/Salary

The only one you're right about is EMTs, who make on average $32k (http://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/mobile...dics.htm).

But I don't really get why people ever compare the wages of one job to others, especially when they are on the low wage side. Shouldn't we be arguing that EMTs are underpaid given the responsibility they are given, their training necessary, and the stress they must endure, rather than arguing that teachers shouldn't be paid more because EMTs make less?

It's not anecdotal when you are a nurse, work with nurses, and are friends with nurses. I'm willing to bet that I know more about nursing pay and salaries than you do since, you know, I kinda am one.

Besides $40k for 9 or 10 months equates to $48-50k for a full 12 month job. Pretty damn cush.

Do you know what anecdotal means? Because you literally just described, to a T, anecdotal evidence. You are using personal experience to draw conclusions...

And $50k for a full time job is not cush, that is on the very low end of starting professional career salaries for the type of people that we should be trying to attract into the field of teaching. Admittedly using anecdotal evidence myself now, but I don't know a single one of my peers that is getting paid less than $50k starting unless they went into teaching. Tech, finance, consulting, engineering, etc all need to pay >$50k to attract the best and the brightest. Why should we not be trying to attract the best and the brightest to teach?

Plus, you are again making the mistake of extrapolating that pay, because it isn't like that pay rate carries over to any other job that would allow a teacher to only work 2 months out of a year. What companies do you know that would pay a person $8k for only two months a year, every year when they do not have time for going through training?

edit: I should probably not just rely on my own anecdotal evidence after pointing out that you were relying on it for your argument. Here is an article about starting salaries for different careers and majors: http://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2...-salaries/

Teaching is important, and we should be doing more to attract bright and talented individuals to that career path.

(08-23-2015 11:45 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(08-22-2015 01:04 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(08-22-2015 12:15 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(08-22-2015 09:02 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(08-20-2015 09:42 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  I'm a damn good teacher.

I bet you work with some schitty ones though. Why are they allowed to remain and taint your profession? They don't get fired for being schitty... They get moved to Administration instead of being removed from the system. IMO...This a big part of the problem with our public education system.

It isn't any different than any other profession. Some teachers are better than others but that isn't a reason to fire them. Secondly, you need a masters to become administration so no, bad teachers do not get moved to admin.

There is a teacher shortage that will only get worse. Replacing a poor teacher doesn't get you anywhere if the replacement is a downgrade.

Those that can do, those that can't teach. Those that can't teach, teach PE. Those that can't teach PE become administrators.

Have you ever taught? Plenty of successful people have tried it and failed. It's a very difficult job. Don't look down on those that teach.

I'm starting my 29th year.

It is an inside joke among teachers. It is how I poke fun at my buddies that are PE teachers and administrators. You have to have a sense of humor.

(08-23-2015 02:29 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  And $50k for a full time job is not cush, that is on the very low end of starting professional career salaries for the type of people that we should be trying to attract into the field of teaching.

Before you raise the pay to be that of engineers maybe start expecting more of the kids who go into it.

Engineering Average SAT 1620
Education Average SAT 1420

A lot of the people saying "we should pay teacher more to attract better teachers would have been bumped out of their slots.

Quote:Admittedly using anecdotal evidence myself now, but I don't know a single one of my peers that is getting paid less than $50k starting unless they went into teaching. Tech, finance, consulting, engineering, etc all need to pay >$50k to attract the best and the brightest. Why should we not be trying to attract the best and the brightest to teach?

Because all those majors you cited don't work for the government (no tenure), pay more towards their health care, have lesser benefits. So they are paid more.

edit - My first engineering job out of college was for the US Army Corps of Engineering... Government. It was the most stress free job I ever had. Of course as an engineer I was only making 38K the first year but like I said, stability was worth it. I left after a year for the private sector and near doubled my pay.

(08-23-2015 02:57 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(08-23-2015 02:29 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  And $50k for a full time job is not cush, that is on the very low end of starting professional career salaries for the type of people that we should be trying to attract into the field of teaching.

Before you raise the pay to be that of engineers maybe start expecting more of the kids who go into it.

Engineering Average SAT 1620
Education Average SAT 1420

A lot of the people saying "we should pay teacher more to attract better teachers would have been bumped out of their slots.

Quote:Admittedly using anecdotal evidence myself now, but I don't know a single one of my peers that is getting paid less than $50k starting unless they went into teaching. Tech, finance, consulting, engineering, etc all need to pay >$50k to attract the best and the brightest. Why should we not be trying to attract the best and the brightest to teach?

Because all those majors you cited don't work for the government (no tenure), pay more towards their health care, have lesser benefits. So they are paid more.

edit - My first engineering job out of college was for the US Army Corps of Engineering... Government. It was the most stress free job I ever had. Of course as an engineer I was only making 38K the first year but like I said, stability was worth it. I left after a year for the private sector and near doubled my pay.

I'm not arguing that we pay Teaching Majors more. I'm arguing that increasing the pay will attract people who did engineering majors, computer science majors, etc. to the teaching profession. I think being able to attract people from a broader spectrum of majors, especially STEM majors, to the profession of teaching is a very good idea. Those are the types of fields that we as a country need to continue to excel in, and what better way to do that then have people who are trained in that field become primary education teachers?

Perhaps the dollar amounts of the benefits that teachers receive, and how those benefits differ from private sector benefits is not advertised enough. I'm the first to admit that I am very ignorant of the benefits public school teachers receive.

(08-23-2015 02:08 PM)dfarr Wrote:  

(08-23-2015 08:07 AM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(08-22-2015 09:21 PM)dfarr Wrote:  $40k salary for 9 months work sounds pretty good to me. That's about what I made as a staff nurse, but working 12 months with some OT thrown in there.

10 months, not 9, and no pay check for 2 months each year.

If you add up Christmas break, fall break, spring break, and the various other holidays it's closer to 9 months. Also, you can choose to have your paycheck paid either during the school year or year round (in Alabama, not sure about other states).

Looking at my local school systems calendar he teachers are there for 189 days, from July 30-May 27. So there's 2 months for the summer, then the holidays throughout the year total another month.

http://www.opelikaschools.org/pdf/2015-2...lendar.pdf

Most professional jobs include vacation don't they? Most professions give days off for holidays don't they? The Christmas and Spring breaks are a combination of holiday and vacation days. When you teach your vacation days are predetermined. They are built into the schedule. I've never heard of a public school fall break. In NC we have 185 student days, 11 holidays, 10 annual leave (vacation), and 14 workdays. That comes out to 220 days.

Sure you can be paid in 12 rather than 10 installments. It helps budget your money but you are still being paid for 10 months.

(08-23-2015 12:38 PM)stinkfist Wrote:  

(08-23-2015 11:45 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(08-22-2015 01:04 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(08-22-2015 12:15 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(08-22-2015 09:02 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  I bet you work with some schitty ones though. Why are they allowed to remain and taint your profession? They don't get fired for being schitty... They get moved to Administration instead of being removed from the system. IMO...This a big part of the problem with our public education system.

It isn't any different than any other profession. Some teachers are better than others but that isn't a reason to fire them. Secondly, you need a masters to become administration so no, bad teachers do not get moved to admin.

There is a teacher shortage that will only get worse. Replacing a poor teacher doesn't get you anywhere if the replacement is a downgrade.

Those that can do, those that can't teach. Those that can't teach, teach PE. Those that can't teach PE become administrators.

Have you ever taught? Plenty of successful people have tried it and failed. It's a very difficult job. Don't look down on those that teach.

they suck....that's my opinion now and when I was in school....

the job doesn't pay enough to attract anything close to the best minds and thinkers....

public schools are just north of day care....

You may or may not be aware of this, but for 13 years, after you got on the bus in the afternoon there were teachers saying things like, "that Stinkfist, what an idiot", "they don't pay me enough to put up with his crap", "if Stinifist was half as smart as he thinks he is he might actually make something of himself, but I doubt it", "Stinkfist, that little jerk, when he gets jumped in the bathroom, I'm walking in the other direction, he'll get what he deserves" and finally, "which one of the little retards was Stinkfist? Oh yea, if there was ever a good argument for homeschooling it was him.":cheers: It works both ways.

(08-23-2015 02:57 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(08-23-2015 02:29 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  And $50k for a full time job is not cush, that is on the very low end of starting professional career salaries for the type of people that we should be trying to attract into the field of teaching.

Before you raise the pay to be that of engineers maybe start expecting more of the kids who go into it.

Engineering Average SAT 1620
Education Average SAT 1420

A lot of the people saying "we should pay teacher more to attract better teachers would have been bumped out of their slots.

Quote:Admittedly using anecdotal evidence myself now, but I don't know a single one of my peers that is getting paid less than $50k starting unless they went into teaching. Tech, finance, consulting, engineering, etc all need to pay >$50k to attract the best and the brightest. Why should we not be trying to attract the best and the brightest to teach?

Because all those majors you cited don't work for the government (no tenure), pay more towards their health care, have lesser benefits. So they are paid more.

edit - My first engineering job out of college was for the US Army Corps of Engineering... Government. It was the most stress free job I ever had. Of course as an engineer I was only making 38K the first year but like I said, stability was worth it. I left after a year for the private sector and near doubled my pay.

Private school teachers make less than public school teachers.

(08-23-2015 03:28 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(08-23-2015 12:38 PM)stinkfist Wrote:  

(08-23-2015 11:45 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(08-22-2015 01:04 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(08-22-2015 12:15 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  It isn't any different than any other profession. Some teachers are better than others but that isn't a reason to fire them. Secondly, you need a masters to become administration so no, bad teachers do not get moved to admin.

There is a teacher shortage that will only get worse. Replacing a poor teacher doesn't get you anywhere if the replacement is a downgrade.

Those that can do, those that can't teach. Those that can't teach, teach PE. Those that can't teach PE become administrators.

Have you ever taught? Plenty of successful people have tried it and failed. It's a very difficult job. Don't look down on those that teach.

they suck....that's my opinion now and when I was in school....

the job doesn't pay enough to attract anything close to the best minds and thinkers....

public schools are just north of day care....

You may or may not be aware of this, but for 13 years, after you got on the bus in the afternoon there were teachers saying things like, "that Stinkfist, what an idiot", "they don't pay me enough to put up with his crap", "if Stinifist was half as smart as he thinks he is he might actually make something of himself, but I doubt it", "Stinkfist, that little jerk, when he gets jumped in the bathroom, I'm walking in the other direction, he'll get what he deserves" and finally, "which one of the little retards was Stinkfist? Oh yea, if there was ever a good argument for homeschooling it was him.":cheers: It works both ways.

believe me when I say this....I am for creating more incentive to build a more well equipped group of teachers.....but that isn't the case here, is it?.....and it damn sure wasn't when I moved to missippy from StL parochial training back in '74

I mentioned this to fit in another post.....you guys are behind the 8-ball.....

I'm not sold that the current system that is in place isn't due to the haves wanting to remain being the haves.....that if some trickle through, then okay - they earned it...

people don't really want to hear what needs to be done.....that goes into another level of crazy.....