(08-02-2015 08:05 AM)10thMountain Wrote:  I get that the real point of this is to whine about how unfair it is the PAC won't take Boise State but it DOES ignore that conferences are multi sport associations that also serve as formal or informal academic consortiums as well.

When you remember that, then there really are only maybe 3-4 P5 programs that are pure coattail riders whose athletics aren't great, whose academics aren't great and who don't bring any kind of market that their conference doesn't already have covered anyway.

There really aren't many. I don't think there's a single program of that nature or even anything close to it in the B1G. I think WSU and OSU in the PAC come pretty close as they are the weakest schools academically and athletically while being a distant second fiddle in an existing conference market. If Kansas didn't suck so horrendously in football, the same could probably be said of KSU. If there were a clear performance separation between Miss and MSU, the same could be said of one of those programs. Wake Forest definitely fits the mold in the ACC.

(08-02-2015 08:05 AM)10thMountain Wrote:  I get that the real point of this is to whine about how unfair it is the PAC won't take Boise State but it DOES ignore that conferences are multi sport associations that also serve as formal or informal academic consortiums as well.

When you remember that, then there really are only maybe 3-4 P5 programs that are pure coattail riders whose athletics aren't great, whose academics aren't great and who don't bring any kind of market that their conference doesn't already have covered anyway.

*Cough* Washington State *Cough*

*Cough* Oregon State *Cough*

*Cough* Texas Tech *Cough* (okay, football has been solid in the Big 12).

*Cough* Mississippi State *Cough* (historically anyways)

It could have been worse, Idaho and Montana could have been along for the ride in the PCC/Pac-X. Rice and SMU as well.

Pro/rel won't fly in America (or Canada). I cringe whenever soccer fans bring it up for MLS. It's an even worse idea when applied to collegiate athletics because multiple sports are played. A school like Alabama would only be at the top level in one sport, and a school like Duke would be at the top level for all except one sport.

(08-02-2015 02:49 PM)OrangeCrush22 Wrote:  Pro/rel won't fly in America (or Canada). I cringe whenever soccer fans bring it up for MLS. It's an even worse idea when applied to collegiate athletics because multiple sports are played. A school like Alabama would only be at the top level in one sport, and a school like Duke would be at the top level for all except one sport.

The better argument is that relegation is a dumb idea even in European soccer leagues.

In England, as in other countries, teams promoted to Premier League rarely if ever last long enough to make it into the top half of the EPL before getting relegated again. It's a system that makes the top 6 to 8 teams in each top-division league even more elite and harder to dislodge, because everyone else is fighting the fear and churn of relegation while the handful of teams with enough money and resources are the only ones with a chance of ever winning the league or even finishing in the top 3. The elite few teams fight for glory every year and the other two-thirds or three-fourths of the league is either stuck in mid-table forever or frantically trying to avoid relegation each year, making their financial support tenuous at best. The idea of a team getting promoted and eventually fighting their way up to win the league is nothing more than a fantasy, unless that team finds a billionaire to buy its way to success (we're looking at you, Manchester City).

If there was relegation in U.S. pro sports, teams like this year's Houston Astros would have been stuck in the relegation churn and never have been able to take the time to build into a winner. They would have spent every season taking desperate short term measures to avoid relegation to AAA baseball, and would have considered it a "victory" just to escape relegation every year, assuming they did manage to escape it.

The promotion dream is a fantasy that benefits the elite handful of teams in European soccer by further distancing them from everyone else, including most of the teams in their own top-division league. It benefits them far more than the poorly-financed teams for whom promotion only means a chance to get stuck in the promotion/relegation churn for the next several years (until a really bad season kicks them down to the bottom of the second division).

(08-02-2015 08:05 AM)10thMountain Wrote:  I get that the real point of this is to whine about how unfair it is the PAC won't take Boise State but it DOES ignore that conferences are multi sport associations that also serve as formal or informal academic consortiums as well.

When you remember that, then there really are only maybe 3-4 P5 programs that are pure coattail riders whose athletics aren't great, whose academics aren't great and who don't bring any kind of market that their conference doesn't already have covered anyway.

I have a lot of friends on Facebook and from high school that root for the Big 12 teams like Texas and all that. When I post about Boise State and some of these smaller schools about adding them to the Big 12 as expansion? Many of them like the potential of Boise State joining the Big 12. They do not care what type of education they bring. They care about the athletic products. Boise could bring their football, Basketball and wrestling programs to the Big 12 which could bring excitement. They even like the idea of North Dakota State to the Big 12. These people are fans of Texas, Texas Tech, Baylor, TCU, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Kansas, Kansas State and so forth. They even like Memphis.

There are more to the reasons why they like these schools. Boise State is close to some ski resorts. UNR as well with Tehoe. North Dakota State, Colorado State, Wyoming, New mexico, Montana and so forth are that they have friends in those states who they compete against professional rodeo. Remember, most of these states are farming, ranching states, and the culture fit for the Big 12 is not with the eastern schools. It is the western culture with states north and west of Oklahoma and Texas. You can add Missouri, Arkansas, Minnesota to the list that fits with the western culture.

Adding West Virginia was not a cultural fit with the western Big 12 schools. Memphis would fit, and maybe Southern Mississippi and LSU and other Louisianna schools. I could say some parts of Illinois schools. The differences between Oklahoma, Kansas and Texas among with Minnessota and Iowa is that the cultures are different than to the Midwest. I could see a point where they invite schools to be part of P5, and then break apart, and then form into groups by regions to see something of a much better product. Academics should not be a requirement. It makes you look like snobby jerks who think they are better than everybody else. It needs to be the attitude of the fans and enviornment of the region than trying to be like other schools out in the east.

On the plus side of things in support of it here, it means that more markets can have the hope of having a top level team without robbing another city of its history and fan following, like the Seattle Supersonics. Seattle fans have been robbed of rooting for an elite NBA franchise the last few years because David Stern forced the Sonics to Oklahoma. OKC could have had a team in the D-League that was good enough to move up to the NBA.

It would also solve the problem of having franchises like the Florida Marlins fielding MLB teams but never drawing flies while some minor league franchises over the years had better attendance and more rabid support.

David the problem is fans don't make expansion decisions: University and Conference Leadership does.

(08-02-2015 04:23 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  David the problem is fans don't make expansion decisions: University and Conference Leadership does.

Yeah, have you noticed the dropping of fans for football games? The PAC 12 took a nose dive after adding Colorado. Fans can make a statement by not showing up or watch on tv for crappy teams.

ACC took a hit of adding all those Big East/AAC schools. Most of those schools have been bottom feeders or middle of the pack schools in football. West Virginia and Cincinnati have the better football than Pittsburgh and Syracuse. The better way to sell something is to have the best package to tv viewers. There are a lot of winning G5 schools that can draw attention back to College football, and get people into the seats.

(08-02-2015 04:38 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(08-02-2015 04:23 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  David the problem is fans don't make expansion decisions: University and Conference Leadership does.

Yeah, have you noticed the dropping of fans for football games? The PAC 12 took a nose dive after adding Colorado. Fans can make a statement by not showing up or watch on tv for crappy teams.

ACC took a hit of adding all those Big East/AAC schools. Most of those schools have been bottom feeders or middle of the pack schools in football. West Virginia and Cincinnati have the better football than Pittsburgh and Syracuse. The better way to sell something is to have the best package to tv viewers. There are a lot of winning G5 schools that can draw attention back to College football, and get people into the seats.

Sure thing skippy...the more you type, the more we laugh.