From Lehigh Football Nation... He's wrong on the required attendance, but makes good points otherwise.

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com...n-and.html

He'd edited out the attendance point. His stated goal conference could never happen for many reasons. But it is cool to see someone outside of our bubble recognizing our predicament.

The article, with it's inconsistencies, helps to keep LU before the public. The longer this lingers and the more articles like this come along, the closer we get to pursuing indy status or a FBS football co-op, with the olympic sports remaining with the existing conferences as the article suggests.

Excellent article. I agree with the inconsistencies/inaccuracies but there weren't many and it doesn't detract from the message. And I'd love to be in that conference (if we weren't in a different P5 conference) even if it would never happen in a million years.

This is good publicity for Liberty.

The article is valid because it is from someone not affiliated with the Sun Belt or the Big South conferences. It's from someone's perspective that attended a home game at LU and what their experience was.

The current love fest with Coastal on the SBC board is interesting. I've noticed that many of those beating the CCU drum are the same ones who dish, dump on and dismiss LU. Coastal does have several good points. Great location, very good baseball tradition, a strong basketball presence and like LU recent FB success. All good.

Most of the posters on the Sun Belt board have no clue about CCU and their readiness for FBS which one can gather from the posts and comments. One gets the feeling the allure with the SBC crowd with CCU is there's excitement of the unknown and newness of CCU being mentioned. It's a lot about beaches and weather. Rather than LU or even JMU, which is much more prepared than CCU, many SBC homies have pledged their support to CCU. Yes the nearness of the beaches of Myrtle Beach is a great geographical draw.

If JMU lands FBS before LU that will be a stimulation for LU like ODU was a stimulation/poke-in-eye for JMU. Unfortunately JMU has to this point, tripped over it's own feet and is it's own worst enemy.

If, in some unlikely circumstance, CCU lands FBS before LU, then one could expect LU to be very aggressive in seeking FBS membership by a) creating a FB alliance/co-op arrangement with other schools and retaining Olympic sports in the Big South or b) seeking full indy status.

As the article stated, LU has the facilities, and local and geographical media in place to be indy. If indy, one could see LU acquiring other media groups to bolster and broaden it's national awareness and appeal.

As one who has followed LU since it's inception, I've learned one thing. Do not underestimate the goals, ambitions and commitment of the admin, especially since Barber has come aboard and Jr. taken the reins. And good luck to Coastal and JMU in their FBS quest. If either one achieve FBS before LU, it just may be like the energetic awakening of a poke in the side of a sleeping bear.

I hope CCU gets a FBS invite before us this would give us a legitimate example of a public school in the same conference getting an FBS invite before LU. It's not like CCU's facilities are better or they have higher attendance numbers in FB. The bias against LU would be so obvious the NCAA would really have to address making a new path to FBS without a invite. Not ideal but it is what it is.

(06-28-2015 12:51 PM)Curtisc83 Wrote:  I hope CCU gets a FBS invite before us this would give us a legitimate example of a public school in the same conference getting an FBS invite before LU. It's not like CCU's facilities are better or they have higher attendance numbers in FB. The bias against LU would be so obvious the NCAA would really have to address making a new path to FBS without a invite. Not ideal but it is what it is.

Coastal has more demonstrated success in the main sports, particularly football, baseball, men's basketball - and probably men's soccer. That should be reason enough. Liberty has really good athletics too but not as much in those sports. The other sports aren't going to move the needle as much. Coastal's football stadium will need to be expanded and would be if moving to the SBC but the rest of the facilities are fine and many are new (baseball, softball, basketball, tennis) or there are plans to build new ones (soccer and track & field).

Whether they add Coastal or not, another issue the SBC could argue would be cultural fit. Perhaps the SBC just feels like Liberty wouldn't be a good fit for any number of reasons. There is precedent where athletic conferences consider other factors. They've said they have a standard methodology for reviewing prospective members, that nay be interesting to get a hold of. I know fit is an important consideration when I make hiring decisions and I could see it playing in here as well.

As far as being singled out - ask Jacksonville State. They had wanted in the SBC and have been denied as well. They are a public school with football tradition, success, attendance, and facilities. So Liberty isn't the only example of a school not being allowed in.

Wait 6-12 months and see what happens with EKU. If they don't get in then they would have a similar argument as JSU except recent attendance.

If JMU or Coastal get the FBS invite, especially Coastal, the indy pursuit will likely be our only path for FBS. The Sun Belt, as hard as it tries to be equal and exceed the C-USA, is the conference everyone leaves from to join a more prestigious and appealing conference. The MAC is a nice, neat, compact conference operating behind the shadows of a big brother P5. It's been the C-USA that has been raided from those as perceived better conferences, and the Sun Belt has been the stepping stone for the C-USA.

Which means, LU is likely, in time, after FBS membership, to move beyond the entry level SBC if it ever was invited. LU would be a better for the C-USA and have a longer home there than the SBC. In the future as LU excels in FBS and continues to grow it's national following, an indy route may be the best bet. Continued expansion of TV and radio markets and the development of regional rivalries will nurture an increase in the traveling fan base and build home game attendance.

Once LU averages home attendance into the 30ks, we can expect the combination of increased media and marketing factors to push it even higher. This is unfortunately what most SBC posters fear about LU. We hear the yammy-yammmy same dialogue over and over on the SBC board. Very few will agree and disguise their fear with the public/private view or mock the online presence of LU. Most of the naysayers fear the potential clout of LU.

So if an SBC invite comes, which is unlikely, we'll gladly take it and be a good member as we've been in the Big South. And as LU has outgrown the Big South, and in time we'll outgrow the SBC as many others have.

If it's indy, then bring it on. The struggle of being FBS indy would be superior to being stuck in the low-level, FCS Big South. That's my soap box and I'm sticking to it.

(06-28-2015 06:09 PM)rokamortis Wrote:  

(06-28-2015 12:51 PM)Curtisc83 Wrote:  I hope CCU gets a FBS invite before us this would give us a legitimate example of a public school in the same conference getting an FBS invite before LU. It's not like CCU's facilities are better or they have higher attendance numbers in FB. The bias against LU would be so obvious the NCAA would really have to address making a new path to FBS without a invite. Not ideal but it is what it is.

Coastal has more demonstrated success in the main sports, particularly football, baseball, men's basketball - and probably men's soccer. That should be reason enough. Liberty has really good athletics too but not as much in those sports. The other sports aren't going to move the needle as much. Coastal's football stadium will need to be expanded and would be if moving to the SBC but the rest of the facilities are fine and many are new (baseball, softball, basketball, tennis) or there are plans to build new ones (soccer and track & field).

Whether they add Coastal or not, another issue the SBC could argue would be cultural fit. Perhaps the SBC just feels like Liberty wouldn't be a good fit for any number of reasons. There is precedent where athletic conferences consider other factors. They've said they have a standard methodology for reviewing prospective members, that nay be interesting to get a hold of. I know fit is an important consideration when I make hiring decisions and I could see it playing in here as well.

As far as being singled out - ask Jacksonville State. They had wanted in the SBC and have been denied as well. They are a public school with football tradition, success, attendance, and facilities. So Liberty isn't the only example of a school not being allowed in.

Wait 6-12 months and see what happens with EKU. If they don't get in then they would have a similar argument as JSU except recent attendance.

Rokamortis, welcome to the LU board. If more Coastal supporters were online it could bode interesting when the last football game of the year comes about.

CCU is likely a better fit for the SBC than LU. We have discussed on this and the SBC board countless times why and why not LU is a good fit for the SBC. It's an issue that has gone beyond rational comment when discussed on the SBC board. I don't post there anymore but do reply rarely when LU is discussed. LU is such a lightning rod on the SBC board that members there, even when posted by SBC members, most always sabotage the thread. It's a dismissive way to control the dialogue. So don't bank on the rhetoric that is on the SBC board. It's most time invalid when about LU by most of those commenting.

(06-28-2015 06:09 PM)rokamortis Wrote:  

(06-28-2015 12:51 PM)Curtisc83 Wrote:  I hope CCU gets a FBS invite before us this would give us a legitimate example of a public school in the same conference getting an FBS invite before LU. It's not like CCU's facilities are better or they have higher attendance numbers in FB. The bias against LU would be so obvious the NCAA would really have to address making a new path to FBS without a invite. Not ideal but it is what it is.

Coastal has more demonstrated success in the main sports, particularly football, baseball, men's basketball - and probably men's soccer. That should be reason enough. Liberty has really good athletics too but not as much in those sports. The other sports aren't going to move the needle as much. Coastal's football stadium will need to be expanded and would be if moving to the SBC but the rest of the facilities are fine and many are new (baseball, softball, basketball, tennis) or there are plans to build new ones (soccer and track & field).

Soccer is not a main sport, and I'd argue that women's basketball is more of a main sport than baseball although neither really move the needle for a conference. The last ten years or so have had both of us be nearly equal in football if you having more recent success but we had a period of dominating the conference before your recent surge. And again, basketball has recently shown that you've been better but before your two tourny runs we were the champs. You aren't far and away better like you make it seem.

(06-28-2015 08:03 PM)GE and MTS Wrote:  Soccer is not a main sport, and I'd argue that women's basketball is more of a main sport than baseball although neither really move the needle for a conference. The last ten years or so have had both of us be nearly equal in football if you having more recent success but we had a period of dominating the conference before your recent surge. And again, basketball has recently shown that you've been better but before your two tourny runs we were the champs. You aren't far and away better like you make it seem.

I said Liberty was good but Coastal has more demonstrated level of success.

Ok, I concede soccer is not a main sport. In my visits around various sports boards baseball is discussed much more than women's b-ball but I'm ok with dropping that as well.

So we should compare football and men's basketball? From 2003-04 just to make it consistent with football?

Basketball:
Liberty finished the conference standings first once, and have won the tournament twice. You've had 3 total winning seasons.

Coastal had a tough time until about 5 years ago. Since 2003 we've finished first in the conference twice and had had 6 winning seasons. We've won the tournament twice.

Coastal has been more consistent, recently. Liberty has had success but it hasn't been as consistent or as recent.

Football:
Liberty has done well but never dominated - pretty much due to Stony Brook when Coastal was down. Liberty has been to the playoffs once.

Coastal has been to the playoffs 5 times - 3 times in the last 3 years and losing to the eventual national champs the past two years.

Like I said, a more demonstrated level of success. It doesn't mean you are bad or even Coastal is dominating, just better numbers to flash to a prospective conference.

(06-28-2015 06:09 PM)rokamortis Wrote:  

(06-28-2015 12:51 PM)Curtisc83 Wrote:  I hope CCU gets a FBS invite before us this would give us a legitimate example of a public school in the same conference getting an FBS invite before LU. It's not like CCU's facilities are better or they have higher attendance numbers in FB. The bias against LU would be so obvious the NCAA would really have to address making a new path to FBS without a invite. Not ideal but it is what it is.

Coastal has more demonstrated success in the main sports, particularly football, baseball, men's basketball - and probably men's soccer. That should be reason enough. Liberty has really good athletics too but not as much in those sports. The other sports aren't going to move the needle as much. Coastal's football stadium will need to be expanded and would be if moving to the SBC but the rest of the facilities are fine and many are new (baseball, softball, basketball, tennis) or there are plans to build new ones (soccer and track & field).

Whether they add Coastal or not, another issue the SBC could argue would be cultural fit. Perhaps the SBC just feels like Liberty wouldn't be a good fit for any number of reasons. There is precedent where athletic conferences consider other factors. They've said they have a standard methodology for reviewing prospective members, that nay be interesting to get a hold of. I know fit is an important consideration when I make hiring decisions and I could see it playing in here as well.

As far as being singled out - ask Jacksonville State. They had wanted in the SBC and have been denied as well. They are a public school with football tradition, success, attendance, and facilities. So Liberty isn't the only example of a school not being allowed in.

Wait 6-12 months and see what happens with EKU. If they don't get in then they would have a similar argument as JSU except recent attendance.

Jacksonville State is not a good example since they are in a state with 4 other FBS programs and their state has a pop of 4.849 million (2014). Virginia has 3 FBS programs with a pop of 8.326 million (2014). Alabama is pretty full on FBS teams, Jax State is just SOL. That aside its been since 1978 since a private was made into FBS and that was only because of the FBS/FCS split. Last time a public went FBS was 2-3 years ago. These are things that could be ignored by anyone but if someone presented this in the form of a case to the NCAA to make a path for FCS schools to become FBS it would be pretty compelling. Jax State would benefit from this as well but their state would still be over crowded with FBS schools.

(06-29-2015 08:12 AM)Curtisc83 Wrote:  Jacksonville State is not a good example since they are in a state with 4 other FBS programs and their state has a pop of 4.849 million (2014). Virginia has 3 FBS programs with a pop of 8.326 million (2014). Alabama is pretty full on FBS teams, Jax State is just SOL. That aside its been since 1978 since a private was made into FBS and that was only because of the FBS/FCS split. Last time a public went FBS was 2-3 years ago. These are things that could be ignored by anyone but if someone presented this in the form of a case to the NCAA to make a path for FCS schools to become FBS it would be pretty compelling. Jax State would benefit from this as well but their state would still be over crowded with FBS schools.

You could make the case and it could work. I just think there are counter arguments that someone could make that are as reasonable.

You may have a better shot arguing that they aren't following their own rules and enforcing the attendance requirement - which you've been able to demonstrate you meet even at the FCS level.

I've heard that the NCAA may drop the conference requirement for FBS so it could be moot. I'm not sure how likely but I've seen it mentioned a few times.

As Coastal has had recent success in men's basketball, baseball and football, can you explain the modest attendance. The onfield success does not seem to equate to the attendance draw. I watched the Liberty vs. Coastal FB game last year that was likely the biggest game in Coastal's history. An undefeated season was one the line and possibly a number 1 or 2 final FCS ranking. All the reasons to have a packed, overflow house. From watching on TV, it seemed like the stadium was about 2/3 full and I believe the announced attendance was 8k.

With's Coastal's current success run, what is it going to take to break out and have attendance be consummate with the on field success. Lastly, I've been surprised how few Coastal fans such as yourself are on this BBS. I know CCU has an active bbs, and there are other bbs's, but CSNbbs is an open forum bbs with many conferences and teams rather than a home team bbs. Does this reflects the interest in the program? If the admins of CCU are desiring FBS one would think there would be greater interest and attendance, especially on the most important games. Thoughts.

(06-29-2015 03:46 PM)NewTimes Wrote:  As Coastal has had recent success in men's basketball, baseball and football, can you explain the modest attendance. The onfield success does not seem to equate to the attendance draw. I watched the Liberty vs. Coastal FB game last year that was likely the biggest game in Coastal's history. An undefeated season was one the line and possibly a number 1 or 2 final FCS ranking. All the reasons to have a packed, overflow house. From watching on TV, it seemed like the stadium was about 2/3 full and I believe the announced attendance was 8k.

With's Coastal's current success run, what is it going to take to break out and have attendance be consummate with the on field success. Lastly, I've been surprised how few Coastal fans such as yourself are on this BBS. I know CCU has an active bbs, and there are other bbs's, but CSNbbs is an open forum bbs with many conferences and teams rather than a home team bbs. Does this reflects the interest in the program? If the admins of CCU are desiring FBS one would think there would be greater interest and attendance, especially on the most important games. Thoughts.

Attendance will increase with playing better teams. I think we could use a little more marketing effort too.

The Liberty game at the end of the season coincided with students leaving for Thanksgiving break. With so many students out of state, they have a long way to travel so they don't tend to stay. Also you see some of the seats being empty as a result of season ticket holders or corporate sponsors not being able to make it that game. The ticket is sold, the holder just doesn't show up for some reason - has happened to me before.

A bigger stadium will help as well. We completely sold out once last year (including all standing room only tickets) and nearly sold out a second game.

As far as Coastal people posting here, just isn't a huge need. Most are happy on our board.

(06-29-2015 04:47 PM)rokamortis Wrote:  

(06-29-2015 03:46 PM)NewTimes Wrote:  As Coastal has had recent success in men's basketball, baseball and football, can you explain the modest attendance. The onfield success does not seem to equate to the attendance draw. I watched the Liberty vs. Coastal FB game last year that was likely the biggest game in Coastal's history. An undefeated season was one the line and possibly a number 1 or 2 final FCS ranking. All the reasons to have a packed, overflow house. From watching on TV, it seemed like the stadium was about 2/3 full and I believe the announced attendance was 8k.

With's Coastal's current success run, what is it going to take to break out and have attendance be consummate with the on field success. Lastly, I've been surprised how few Coastal fans such as yourself are on this BBS. I know CCU has an active bbs, and there are other bbs's, but CSNbbs is an open forum bbs with many conferences and teams rather than a home team bbs. Does this reflects the interest in the program? If the admins of CCU are desiring FBS one would think there would be greater interest and attendance, especially on the most important games. Thoughts.

Attendance will increase with playing better teams. I think we could use a little more marketing effort too.

The Liberty game at the end of the season coincided with students leaving for Thanksgiving break. With so many students out of state, they have a long way to travel so they don't tend to stay. Also you see some of the seats being empty as a result of season ticket holders or corporate sponsors not being able to make it that game. The ticket is sold, the holder just doesn't show up for some reason - has happened to me before.

A bigger stadium will help as well. We completely sold out once last year (including all standing room only tickets) and nearly sold out a second game.

As far as Coastal people posting here, just isn't a huge need. Most are happy on our board.

I know South Carolina cast a large shadow over the state and you guys are striving to create your niche. With the many positives that CCU has going for it interest in the program seems to be one of the weak points currently. Aggressive marketing and signature FB wins will help on away wins. What are the plans, if any to expand the FB stadium? App and GSO were averaging in the 20K and LU averages 16k+ in the weak Big South. If the "build it and they will come" belief exists at CCU, what's the goal for powers that be at Coastal and an expanded FB stadium? And BTW, I was pulling for you guys in last year's FB playoffs.

(06-29-2015 05:09 PM)NewTimes Wrote:  

(06-29-2015 04:47 PM)rokamortis Wrote:  

(06-29-2015 03:46 PM)NewTimes Wrote:  As Coastal has had recent success in men's basketball, baseball and football, can you explain the modest attendance. The onfield success does not seem to equate to the attendance draw. I watched the Liberty vs. Coastal FB game last year that was likely the biggest game in Coastal's history. An undefeated season was one the line and possibly a number 1 or 2 final FCS ranking. All the reasons to have a packed, overflow house. From watching on TV, it seemed like the stadium was about 2/3 full and I believe the announced attendance was 8k.

With's Coastal's current success run, what is it going to take to break out and have attendance be consummate with the on field success. Lastly, I've been surprised how few Coastal fans such as yourself are on this BBS. I know CCU has an active bbs, and there are other bbs's, but CSNbbs is an open forum bbs with many conferences and teams rather than a home team bbs. Does this reflects the interest in the program? If the admins of CCU are desiring FBS one would think there would be greater interest and attendance, especially on the most important games. Thoughts.

Attendance will increase with playing better teams. I think we could use a little more marketing effort too.

The Liberty game at the end of the season coincided with students leaving for Thanksgiving break. With so many students out of state, they have a long way to travel so they don't tend to stay. Also you see some of the seats being empty as a result of season ticket holders or corporate sponsors not being able to make it that game. The ticket is sold, the holder just doesn't show up for some reason - has happened to me before.

A bigger stadium will help as well. We completely sold out once last year (including all standing room only tickets) and nearly sold out a second game.

As far as Coastal people posting here, just isn't a huge need. Most are happy on our board.

I know South Carolina cast a large shadow over the state and you guys are striving to create your niche. With the many positives that CCU has going for it interest in the program seems to be one of the weak points currently. Aggressive marketing and signature FB wins will help on away wins. What are the plans, if any to expand the FB stadium? App and GSO were averaging in the 20K and LU averages 16k+ in the weak Big South. If the "build it and they will come" belief exists at CCU, what's the goal for powers that be at Coastal and an expanded FB stadium? And BTW, I was pulling for you guys in last year's FB playoffs.

They haven't announced any plans at this point - I think they are being cautious. When the stadium was first built they said it was expandable to 20,000 - I'm fairly certain that was a horseshoe design. There is talk that the stadium will be expanded to 19,500 soon. It had been mentioned that we could shift the road that borders the stadium scoreboard and make a bowl with perhaps another endzone facility. I'm assuming this would get us to 23-25,000 but also assume this would be a later phase along with a possible tower building on the 544 side I've heard discussed.

(06-28-2015 10:07 PM)rokamortis Wrote:  

(06-28-2015 08:03 PM)GE and MTS Wrote:  Soccer is not a main sport, and I'd argue that women's basketball is more of a main sport than baseball although neither really move the needle for a conference. The last ten years or so have had both of us be nearly equal in football if you having more recent success but we had a period of dominating the conference before your recent surge. And again, basketball has recently shown that you've been better but before your two tourny runs we were the champs. You aren't far and away better like you make it seem.

I said Liberty was good but Coastal has more demonstrated level of success.

Ok, I concede soccer is not a main sport. In my visits around various sports boards baseball is discussed much more than women's b-ball but I'm ok with dropping that as well.

So we should compare football and men's basketball? From 2003-04 just to make it consistent with football?

Basketball:
Liberty finished the conference standings first once, and have won the tournament twice. You've had 3 total winning seasons.

Coastal had a tough time until about 5 years ago. Since 2003 we've finished first in the conference twice and had had 6 winning seasons. We've won the tournament twice.

Coastal has been more consistent, recently. Liberty has had success but it hasn't been as consistent or as recent.

Football:
Liberty has done well but never dominated - pretty much due to Stony Brook when Coastal was down. Liberty has been to the playoffs once.

Coastal has been to the playoffs 5 times - 3 times in the last 3 years and losing to the eventual national champs the past two years.

Like I said, a more demonstrated level of success. It doesn't mean you are bad or even Coastal is dominating, just better numbers to flash to a prospective conference.

Conferences are run by presidents and presidents want to see fame and fortune, specifically what improves themselves and their standing. Presidents are also generally risk adverse, conservative against drastic change.

With that said, presidents want to be with schools that are similar to themselves. Similar goals, similar demographic, similar ideologies. School X concentrates on being a giant research school while School Y tries to be a big undergrad school. National versus regional. It all matters. Once the presidents make a list of institutional criteria, then they look at athletics.

Presidents don't want to invite schools into their conference that will threaten their standing. So they usually won't bring in a poor academic school if the conference concentrates on academic prestige. Likewise, a school that overlaps an existing market where it will just fight with other conference schools adds little to no fans to the existing footprint where they have to compete with each other for coverage. A school too far away won't likely bring fans to away games and make the conference members money, nor would your fans support a move like that so in either instance, the presidents would really have to defend the selection. And the further away the more money it costs to send your athletes there.

Presidents want consistently good athletics from a prospective school, especially in the money sports and the highly visible, televised sports that get highlights on Sports Center. More importantly, they want prospective schools to have support, especially in down years. If a school is in the middle of their third consecutive losing season but the fans are still making it out to games, that is the kind of program that is a potential cash cow. And that goes both ways, if a school is in the middle of a long period of winning and they struggle to fill the seats, that is usually a huge red flag.

There are other things like financial support and how big the athletic budget is, how willing are schools to make financial investments into itself, etc. It's better to have proof than to have a plan.

So Coastal may get the golden ticket from the Sun Belt. It will probably be because Liberty doesn't have the institutional fit for the conference.

Good to see you bouncing around here, Rok. Don't be a stranger on either of the LU boards. And we need to get you up to Lynchburg this fall.

On-field success has little to do with realignment. Charlotte and Georga State and as exhibits A & B. The lack of gate and fan interest are CCU's achilles. We have completely different obstacles that are unique to who we are.