Within the last decade or two we've seen Gonzaga, Butler, VCU, George Mason, etc. build very impressive programs.

Yet, Butler lost their coach to the NBA,

VCU is about to lose Smart to Texas.

Mason lost their coach to Miami (FL) after a 'dispute' with the GMU AD (that is believed to be the reason Larranaga left Mason).

Folks say, hey, just double the coaches salary and he'll stay.

VCU, if I remember correctly, was paying Smart around 1M a year...

Even a ridiculous salary isn't enough...

Because coach's want a quick fix to get there bonuses.

(04-03-2015 06:50 AM)emussuperfan Wrote:  Because coach's want a quick fix to get there bonuses.

????????????????

I'm talking about the difficulty of retaining a very successful collegiate basketball coach.

Guess it isn't completely about $, but about being at the top of their profession as the marque programs (e.g., NBA, ACC, B12, etc.).

These schools need to follow Butler's lead and move to a major conference if they want to keep their coaches. VCU (a much, much larger school than Butler) took a step by moving from the CAA to the A10, but even then they don't have the revenue that a Big 12 school does. Football has a lot to do with it, which is a shame for the "little" guys.

At the end of the day, I think mid major powerhouses of earlier this century will be fewer and far between in coming years. I can see the "all catholic" Big East opening it's doors to schools like VCU and Wichita State to make itself even deeper, thus taking away their Mid Major status.

(04-03-2015 07:12 AM)emu steve Wrote:  

(04-03-2015 06:50 AM)emussuperfan Wrote:  Because coach's want a quick fix to get there bonuses.

????????????????

I'm talking about the difficulty of retaining a very successful collegiate basketball coach.

Guess it isn't completely about $, but about being at the top of their profession as the marque programs (e.g., NBA, ACC, B12, etc.).

Nope it's all about the money. It started back in the 80s most businesses if you wanted to get a good raise you switched companies, raises within is percentage of current wages. Corporations tried to get around that by offering bonuses which is only a short term fix. So now it's all around getting those bonuses. That is what was problem with the banks, almost everything started and ended with saving those bonuses . There is no long term vision anymore.

(04-03-2015 08:34 AM)emussuperfan Wrote:  

(04-03-2015 07:12 AM)emu steve Wrote:  

(04-03-2015 06:50 AM)emussuperfan Wrote:  Because coach's want a quick fix to get there bonuses.

????????????????

I'm talking about the difficulty of retaining a very successful collegiate basketball coach.

Guess it isn't completely about $, but about being at the top of their profession as the marque programs (e.g., NBA, ACC, B12, etc.).

Nope it's all about the money. It started back in the 80s most businesses if you wanted to get a good raise you switched companies, raises within is percentage of current wages. Corporations tried to get around that by offering bonuses which is only a short term fix. So now it's all around getting those bonuses. That is what was problem with the banks, almost everything started and ended with saving those bonuses . There is no long term vision anymore.

That was a long discourse on:

If Coach Smith is making 1M at School A then School B will offer much more money, be it salary, bonuses, 401K, etc. (Coach Smith gets to decide how he wants his compensation).

In the world of corporate executive compensation, they can offer stock options which can lead to that compensation later being taxed as capital gains and not as wages and salary. Excellent way to shelter income from employment.

(04-03-2015 07:22 AM)EagleSam Wrote:  These schools need to follow Butler's lead and move to a major conference if they want to keep their coaches. VCU (a much, much larger school than Butler) took a step by moving from the CAA to the A10, but even then they don't have the revenue that a Big 12 school does. Football has a lot to do with it, which is a shame for the "little" guys.

At the end of the day, I think mid major powerhouses of earlier this century will be fewer and far between in coming years. I can see the "all catholic" Big East opening it's doors to schools like VCU and Wichita State to make itself even deeper, thus taking away their Mid Major status.

I agree with Sam.

It is harder and harder to be an 'outlier' - a high major type power within a mid-major conference.

We're baking in a 'caste system' for revenue sports.

(04-03-2015 08:45 AM)emu steve Wrote:  

(04-03-2015 08:34 AM)emussuperfan Wrote:  

(04-03-2015 07:12 AM)emu steve Wrote:  

(04-03-2015 06:50 AM)emussuperfan Wrote:  Because coach's want a quick fix to get there bonuses.

????????????????

I'm talking about the difficulty of retaining a very successful collegiate basketball coach.

Guess it isn't completely about $, but about being at the top of their profession as the marque programs (e.g., NBA, ACC, B12, etc.).

Nope it's all about the money. It started back in the 80s most businesses if you wanted to get a good raise you switched companies, raises within is percentage of current wages. Corporations tried to get around that by offering bonuses which is only a short term fix. So now it's all around getting those bonuses. That is what was problem with the banks, almost everything started and ended with saving those bonuses . There is no long term vision anymore.

That was a long discourse on:

If Coach Smith is making 1M at School A then School B will offer much more money, be it salary, bonuses, 401K, etc. (Coach Smith gets to decide how he wants his compensation).

In the world of corporate executive compensation, they can offer stock options which can lead to that compensation later being taxed as capital gains and not as wages and salary. Excellent way to shelter income from employment.

In basketball its all about quantity and not quality the more games you win the more money you get doesn't matter how good the competition really is.

I honestly hoped Smart would stick around at VCU. He was getting $1.8m there, and, as a friend of mine in the hoops world said, probably could have had a bronze statue of him there. Texas is a shaky gig, good talent, great facilities, lots of money, but an AD that a lot of people don't trust. Now that Smart is in Big 12 country, I hope to snag an interview with him in the near future.

On the other hand, Wichita State's Marshall just signed an extension with a hefty pay hike.

(04-03-2015 09:59 AM)HuronDave Wrote:  I honestly hoped Smart would stick around at VCU. He was getting $1.8m there, and, as a friend of mine in the hoops world said, probably could have had a bronze statue of him there. Texas is a shaky gig, good talent, great facilities, lots of money, but an AD that a lot of people don't trust. Now that Smart is in Big 12 country, I hope to snag an interview with him in the near future.

On the other hand, Wichita State's Marshall just signed an extension with a hefty pay hike.

UB and the MAC should hope Hurley doesn't get offered 1M to coach at VCU.

VCU has a $25 million practice facility that will open in the fall.

(04-03-2015 02:22 PM)HuronDave Wrote:  VCU has a $25 million practice facility that will open in the fall.

Are you speaking on a student athletic academic performance center?

Those are sprouting up all over the country by universities with big bucks.

From AP:

Smart’s 26 wins in six consecutive seasons is a feat matched only by Duke. With the interest he has generated in basketball, a $25 million basketball practice facility is under construction and scheduled to be ready for use in the fall.

(04-03-2015 03:34 PM)HuronDave Wrote:  From AP:

Smart’s 26 wins in six consecutive seasons is a feat matched only by Duke. With the interest he has generated in basketball, a $25 million basketball practice facility is under construction and scheduled to be ready for use in the fall.

Wow, and he could have had a 1M raise to 2.5M+

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/ncaab/.../25254251/

I'm surprised he took it.

At 2.5M, there is no reason to uproot and take risks.

(04-03-2015 07:22 AM)EagleSam Wrote:  These schools need to follow Butler's lead and move to a major conference if they want to keep their coaches. VCU (a much, much larger school than Butler) took a step by moving from the CAA to the A10, but even then they don't have the revenue that a Big 12 school does. Football has a lot to do with it, which is a shame for the "little" guys.

At the end of the day, I think mid major powerhouses of earlier this century will be fewer and far between in coming years. I can see the "all catholic" Big East opening it's doors to schools like VCU and Wichita State to make itself even deeper, thus taking away their Mid Major status.

Gonzaga is not in a major conference and probably never will be and they were/are a very legitimate national championship contender.

Northern Iowa locked up Ben Jacobson for the next 10 years! He could have easily bolted to a major conference program if he wanted. Gregg Marshall looks like he is staying at Wichita State. Schools with vision don't make excuses, they get the job done.

(04-03-2015 07:56 PM)Bob Wickersham Wrote:  Northern Iowa locked up Ben Jacobson for the next 10 years! He could have easily bolted to a major conference program if he wanted. Gregg Marshall looks like he is staying at Wichita State. Schools with vision don't make excuses, they get the job done.

I wouldn't count these ducks yet.

Smart was locked up until he became unlocked...

I'm surprised one or both didn't bolt...

I think one thing needs to be stated about VCU, WSU and UNI. Lest I be wrong, their basketball attendance is excellent (I believe VCU plays to capacity crowds). They would easily be the 'richest' basketball programs in the MAC. Toledo is the only MAC team which I consider a strong home draw.

(04-03-2015 08:41 PM)emu steve Wrote:  

(04-03-2015 07:56 PM)Bob Wickersham Wrote:  Northern Iowa locked up Ben Jacobson for the next 10 years! He could have easily bolted to a major conference program if he wanted. Gregg Marshall looks like he is staying at Wichita State. Schools with vision don't make excuses, they get the job done.

I wouldn't count these ducks yet.

Smart was locked up until he became unlocked...

I'm surprised one or both didn't bolt...

Exactly. Contract length means absolutely nothing. Ben Jacobson is a UNI guy for life...until a big school makes him an offer he can't refuse.

(04-03-2015 08:41 PM)emu steve Wrote:  

(04-03-2015 07:56 PM)Bob Wickersham Wrote:  Northern Iowa locked up Ben Jacobson for the next 10 years! He could have easily bolted to a major conference program if he wanted. Gregg Marshall looks like he is staying at Wichita State. Schools with vision don't make excuses, they get the job done.

I wouldn't count these ducks yet.

Smart was locked up until he became unlocked...

I'm surprised one or both didn't bolt...

I think one thing needs to be stated about VCU, WSU and UNI. Lest I be wrong, their basketball attendance is excellent (I believe VCU plays to capacity crowds). They would easily be the 'richest' basketball programs in the MAC. Toledo is the only MAC team which I consider a strong home draw.

Yes, you are correct. WSU and UNI routinely sell out. Heck, UNI used to play in the UNI Dome! Big crowds. I like how Toledo lights the arena: dim lights except on the floor--Madison Square Garden style. EMU should do the same! I want to be in charge of EMU basketball and football aesthetics.

Let me do a different perspective, say one of data analytics or statistics:

There are approximately 350 D-I basketball schools. Less than 100 in the power conferences.

That said, if we talk about Few, Marshall, Jacobson and say Smart (now gone) then say 3 or 4 cases out of 250 where a so-called mid-major can retain a coach who could be coaching at a much higher level.

We are talking what are called 'outliers' or 'exceptions to the rule', NOT the rule.

I've always thought that looking at outliers and saying "why not us?" that there is a certain sense of unreality. Things happening 1 or 2% of the time are not the norm. Quite frankly I don't want a 1 or 2% chance of being in a severe automobile accident this year.

That said, these 'outliers', are most likely to occur in conferences, e.g., West Coast, Mo. Valley, A-10, as EagleSam suggested, which sit just below the power conferences. Less likely in the MAC, Horizon, etc.

Therefore, a Gonzaga, VCU, etc. are less likely to occur in the MAC and a chance of say UNI or WSU being where they are today five years from now is iffy.