(02-15-2015 11:53 AM)outsideualr Wrote:  No. I'm just naïve enough to believe that decision has already been made I just think this makes it a little easier. If we had fouled with 15-18 seconds left, and by some miracle Ga Southern still won the game, I think it would have shown that the coach was willing to make an aggressive decision to attempt to win the game and take responsibility for whatever happened. Instead he put the kids in a position to make a mistake that should have never happened, but remember, those kids are 18, 19 and 20 year olds. You can't expect them to not make mistakes, sometimes at crucial moments. Now he can say that we told the kids not to leave the floor when contesting a shot, and the kid gets all the blame for what happens in a crucial moment when he's trying to make a play. In fact, Josh should have never been put in that position. The game should have been over with us winning by at least one point. I could have easily lived with a loss if we had committed the foul, and somehow Ga Southern still managed to win the game. I'm still having trouble forgetting that loss because I believe our kids deserved to win, and the coach cost them the game. Or at least gave them a chance to lose, which they did.

Fouling with 15-18 seconds left would be absolutely the dumbest decision a coach could make. The last thing you want to do is extend the game in that situation. The only time you should consider fouling is with less than 5 seconds left. Preferably 2 or 3 seconds left. I think with them taking the ball out, with 5.2 seconds left, fouling would have been the correct decision. Still with 5 seconds left a bunch of things could still go wrong. They would likely purposely miss the second and hope for the rebound (not that unlikely with our biggest guy on the court at 6'5"). They could even play it straight up, hit both free throws, and foul immediately. They would then get the ball back with 4 seconds left down 1, 2 or 3. We got the final rebound with 4 seconds left, and James Reid ended up with a pretty darn good shot with a chance to win at the buzzer. I don't agree with the decision not to foul with 5.2 seconds left. But, I also don't think it is cut and dry. I think what ended up happening helps explain Steve's decision to me. I'm sure he was concerned that our guys weren't "smart" enough to foul quick enough to avoid a player making a shooting motion that would lead to 3 foul shots. I've seen that happen a number of times.

First of all, let me make sure I'm correct on this before I give, hopefully, my final reasoning. Weren't we three points ahead when they brought the ball down the court with 18.5 seconds remaining? I seem to recall it was 62-59. Is that right?

(02-15-2015 12:51 PM)outsideualr Wrote:  First of all, let me make sure I'm correct on this before I give, hopefully, my final reasoning. Weren't we three points ahead when they brought the ball down the court with 18.5 seconds remaining? I seem to recall it was 62-59. Is that right?

Correct. Last thing you want to do is give them 2 free shots, to cut the lead to one, with 18 or even 15 seconds left. Wayyyy too much time left at that point. Especially with our inability to hit free throws in the clutch.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree on this one. They were bringing it down with 18.5 seconds, but I don't recall where they were on the floor with say 13 to 15 seconds, at which time you could have still fouled them and taken your chances. If they make three shots, assuming they could force a shot as they're being fouled, the worse case is you're tied and have enough time to look for a decent shot. Sure, we could have still lost employing that strategy, but IMO, it's just a better strategy. I don't know the stats, but I would think the law of averages are in your favor of winning the game. Where could we find that stat?

(02-15-2015 12:42 PM)outsideualr Wrote:  

(02-15-2015 12:26 PM)PTJR Wrote:  

(02-15-2015 12:18 PM)Jim T Wrote:  

(02-15-2015 11:53 AM)outsideualr Wrote:  No. I'm just naïve enough to believe that decision has already been made I just think this makes it a little easier. If we had fouled with 15-18 seconds left, and by some miracle Ga Southern still won the game, I think it would have shown that the coach was willing to make an aggressive decision to attempt to win the game and take responsibility for whatever happened. Instead he put the kids in a position to make a mistake that should have never happened, but remember, those kids are 18, 19 and 20 year olds. You can't expect them to not make mistakes, sometimes at crucial moments. Now he can say that we told the kids not to leave the floor when contesting a shot, and the kid gets all the blame for what happens in a crucial moment when he's trying to make a play. In fact, Josh should have never been put in that position. The game should have been over with us winning by at least one point. I could have easily lived with a loss if we had committed the foul, and somehow Ga Southern still managed to win the game. I'm still having trouble forgetting that loss because I believe our kids deserved to win, and the coach cost them the game. Or at least gave them a chance to lose, which they did.

Assuming the decision has already been made, which is true, are you saying that the decision not to intentionally foul an opposing player simply makes it easier for CC to tell Steve that he is fired? Or easier to justify it to others? Assuming the personnel decision has already been made, what will that coaching decision make easier. Please don't try to put that stupid foul on anyone who committed the foul. I would give Josh more credit than that. In his heart, you know Josh isn't thinking what you are saying, that is, Coach put me in a position to make a bonehead play. Josh has integrity and will recognize where exactly where responsibility for that play lies. No agenda.

The decision to foul or not to foul when you are up three at the end of the game has been going on for a long time and is likely to continue for a long time. There is no absolute answer there. However, place the blame here where it belongs: Squarely on Josh Haggins. He left his feet guarding a guy about 25 feet from the basket giving the offensive player the opportunity to create the foul on the three point shot. Haggins and the others had been specifically told not to leave their feet. So whether one thinks deciding to foul or not was the deciding factor in the game, I suggest you look at the player who didn't follow his coach's instructions.

Many of us have had teenagers. And how many times did we tell them to do something, and they did something different. And when you asked them why they did it, it was either "I forgot", or "I didn't understand", or "I didn't hear you say that", or something else. All I'm saying is that the coach could have made a conscious decision that would have probably, and I reiterate, probably, win the game for us, but he chose to leave it up to instructions made in the heat of the moment to teenagers. Obviously his children are not yet teenagers or he would know better.

Come on Outside. Get real. You would expect your average 5th grader to be able to remember something for a minute. The timeout was at 5.3 seconds, the foul at 1.7 seconds. Give a little time to break the huddle and have the ref hand the ball to be inbounded and you are talking a minute, maybe two at most between instruction and foul.

Yes a 5th grader. But not a teenager. Those hormones can do a lot of damage to a teenager's brain!

(02-15-2015 02:21 PM)outsideualr Wrote:  Yes a 5th grader. But not a teenager. Those hormones can do a lot of damage to a teenager's brain!

Haggins will be 21 in a month. He's not an 17 or 18 year old freshman.

(02-15-2015 02:26 PM)PTJR Wrote:  

(02-15-2015 02:21 PM)outsideualr Wrote:  Yes a 5th grader. But not a teenager. Those hormones can do a lot of damage to a teenager's brain!

Haggins will be 21 in a month. He's not an 17 or 18 year old freshman.

Well according to studies, the decision making part of the brain isn't fully developed in males until around 25 years old. That's my story and I'm sticking with it!

(02-15-2015 01:05 PM)outsideualr Wrote:  I'm going to have to respectfully disagree on this one. They were bringing it down with 18.5 seconds, but I don't recall where they were on the floor with say 13 to 15 seconds, at which time you could have still fouled them and taken your chances. If they make three shots, assuming they could force a shot as they're being fouled, the worse case is you're tied and have enough time to look for a decent shot. Sure, we could have still lost employing that strategy, but IMO, it's just a better strategy. I don't know the stats, but I would think the law of averages are in your favor of winning the game. Where could we find that stat?

No way you foul with 13 to 15 seconds left. I think every coach would agree with that. The real debate is if you should do it with 5 seconds or less on the clock. I vote yes, but with our lack of size on the floor it is far from a clear decision. Hewitt, while the best player on their team, is only a 36% three point shooter. I'm sure many of those were open looks. You play him tight, don't leave your feet, and have your hands up, I think it is safe to say his odds of missing are 70% or better. I'd be rich betting those odds in Vegas. The mistake was Josh's. He knows it, and will hopefully learn from it. He's good player and a good kid with a great family- I met his parents in New Orleans and again recently in Monroe. He'll win us a game or 2 before this year is over.

(02-15-2015 04:24 PM)mjs Wrote:  

(02-15-2015 01:05 PM)outsideualr Wrote:  I'm going to have to respectfully disagree on this one. They were bringing it down with 18.5 seconds, but I don't recall where they were on the floor with say 13 to 15 seconds, at which time you could have still fouled them and taken your chances. If they make three shots, assuming they could force a shot as they're being fouled, the worse case is you're tied and have enough time to look for a decent shot. Sure, we could have still lost employing that strategy, but IMO, it's just a better strategy. I don't know the stats, but I would think the law of averages are in your favor of winning the game. Where could we find that stat?

No way you foul with 13 to 15 seconds left. I think every coach would agree with that. The real debate is if you should do it with 5 seconds or less on the clock. I vote yes, but with our lack of size on the floor it is far from a clear decision. Hewitt, while the best player on their team, is only a 36% three point shooter. I'm sure many of those were open looks. You play him tight, don't leave your feet, and have your hands up, I think it is safe to say his odds of missing are 70% or better. I'd be rich betting those odds in Vegas. The mistake was Josh's. He knows it, and will hopefully learn from it. He's good player and a good kid with a great family- I met his parents in New Orleans and again recently in Monroe. He'll win us a game or 2 before this year is over.

No doubt he is a great kid and has and will continue to be a good player for us. I just don't see the point in trying to lay the blame on the coach for a decision to or not to foul when the real mistake that cost the game lies elsewhere.

Well the game is lost, so there really is no point in assigning blame now. Lot of would of, should of, could ofs here.,
Time to move on. A win against ASU would give us a sweep of that series and probably send John Brady looking for another job. That should be our main focus now. And getting everyone well.

From the cheap seats I watched the 2nd half from the opponent's goal. I saw up close how hard the players fought to come back and take the lead. Then to see Leeper limp off just when they needed him most, plus what I will always believe was a very bad coaches decision take the game away when they had a win over a more talented team. This group of players deserves better. And while I'm at it, I wish some of you who are in tight with the coach, ask why Isom is not playing more. 7 Min. last night.

(02-15-2015 05:47 PM)DollarBill Wrote:  From the cheap seats I watched the 2nd half from the opponent's goal. I saw up close how hard the players fought to come back and take the lead. Then to see Leeper limp off just when they needed him most, plus what I will always believe was a very bad coaches decision take the game away when they had a win over a more talented team. This group of players deserves better. And while I'm at it, I wish some of you who are in tight with the coach, ask why Isom is not playing more. 7 Min. last night.

Nobody should have to ask. When you contribute to giving up more points than you contribute to the scoring, you don't play as much as those who do otherwise.

(02-15-2015 05:24 PM)outsideualr Wrote:  Well the game is lost, so there really is no point in assigning blame now. Lot of would of, should of, could ofs here.,
Time to move on. A win against ASU would give us a sweep of that series and probably send John Brady looking for another job. That should be our main focus now. And getting everyone well.

Getting that coveted #8 seed should be our only focus now, except that little thing known as graduating players.

I think the graduating thing is taken care of. Devonte has left the team, for whatever the true reasons are, and will complete his last two classes and graduate in May. Gus has already graduated, and I would bet money that Ben Dillard is on track for his degree soon. Ben, by the way, IMO, will make a very good coach. He certainly has contributed to our program over the years, and has played hard at all times. As far as the Juniors, I don't know who is on schedule, but if the past is any indications, most of our kids will graduate.