Josh, but how can you foul a 3 point shooter putting up a prayer with 1.7 seconds left. Although what I really can't understand is how you don't tell the team to foul, on the floor, when GaSou is taking the ball out, down 3, with 5.2 seconds left. You put them at the line with 4 seconds left where they have to make the first, miss the second on purpose, get the rebound, and then put it in. Four things have to go their way to tie it. But with our luck they probably would have done that if forced to do so.

I was furious when Steve didn't have the team foul. Yes, Josh shouldn't have fouled the three point shooter, but he shouldn't have been in that situation to begin with. They say coaches don't win games, but they can lose them. This one was definitely on the coach. We had the game won. All we had to do was foul the shooter when they crossed the mid court line. Worst loss I can remember. And there was no excuse for losing. Kids played hard.

Mjs and I debated this at post-game dinner. My position was this was not a no-brainer. Many respected coaches say you don't do it. I think that line of thinking arises from well-placed mistrust of officials who might call some sort of continuation-type foul. The thing we ALL CAN agree on. DON'T FOUL A GHREE POINT SHOOTER WAY BEHIND THE ARC WITH 1.7 SECONDS LEFT WHILE HOLDING A 3- POINT LEAD.!!!

(02-15-2015 12:55 AM)outsideualr Wrote:  I was furious when Steve didn't have the team foul. Yes, Josh shouldn't have fouled the three point shooter, but he shouldn't have been in that situation to begin with. They say coaches don't win games, but they can lose them. This one was definitely on the coach. We had the game won. All we had to do was foul the shooter when they crossed the mid court line. Worst loss I can remember. And there was no excuse for losing. Kids played hard.

They got the ball back, down 3, with 18 seconds left. You don't want to foul intentionally too early. But, when they were throwing it in with 5.2 seconds left, that was the time to foul. I do agree with Jim that the issue of whether to foul is roundly debated among coaches. Steve has never endorsed that strategy. With no player over 6'5" on the court, there are certainly dangers in the "giving the foul" strategy. Hewitt may well have drained that 3, but fouling him is the one thing you can't do. It's rather amazing that I had no doubt whatsoever that he would drain all 3 shots, despite the fact that we missed a number of crucial free throws down the stretch. That's whey they're 18-5.

(02-15-2015 12:55 AM)outsideualr Wrote:  I was furious when Steve didn't have the team foul. Yes, Josh shouldn't have fouled the three point shooter, but he shouldn't have been in that situation to begin with. They say coaches don't win games, but they can lose them. This one was definitely on the coach. We had the game won. All we had to do was foul the shooter when they crossed the mid court line. Worst loss I can remember. And there was no excuse for losing. Kids played hard.

I would say I was "pissed". Furious is probably too strong for me. I have heard highly esteemed coaches say they don't believe in the "fouling" strategy. Steve obviously never has and he is the one that has to live with the decision. Hindsight is 20/20. They could have hit the first free throw, missed the second, and then put in the rebound. With 5 seconds left, they could have had enough time to kick the ball out after the rebound and hit a game winning 3 (that's likely what would have happen with our luck). With 5 seconds left they could have hit the two foul shots and then stolen the in bounds pass. Or committed an immediate foul, forcing us to hit 2 free throws, and if we didn't still have enough time to win the game with a 2 or 3 point shot. Again, we can all agree, that the only thing you don't do is foul an 85% free throw shooter shooting a 3 point shot. That's not a winning strategy. Maybe putting Jerron in on Hewitt, if he is such a good defender, would have been a good strategy. But if he commits that foul then I am furious. It's harder to be furious at Josh, since he does so many good things. I've just learned to take the good with the bad.

We can argue about this play forever. I think the kid who is as upset, as anyone, is the guy who had the best game of his career. James Reid had an incredible game, but I'm sure he'll remember the one (of 6) free throw he missed. Would have given us a 4 point lead and likely iced the game. He's the guy I wanted at the line. Just didn't work out the way we wanted.

Getting home after the game(I left after regulation, knew it was lost) was watching Okla vs Kan State, exact situation, K.State led by 3 with few seconds on the clock. Kan State coach no dumb A---, instructed his player to foul as ball was brought up the court. The guy missed 1st FT, then tried to bounce it off the rim, missed every thing, game over. IMO absolute stupid coaching from the Trojan bench Ga.State is experienced, started 3 Srs. Outstanding shooting team. You can say, Hagins should have known better than to foul their best shooter(19 pts per game). Who is responsible for Hagins guarding that shooter?? Same old ending. Almost without fail, game close at the end, Trojans lose.

(02-15-2015 10:56 AM)DollarBill Wrote:  Getting home after the game(I left after regulation, knew it was lost) was watching Okla vs Kan State, exact situation, K.State led by 3 with few seconds on the clock. Kan State coach no dumb A---, instructed his player to foul as ball was brought up the court. The guy missed 1st FT, then tried to bounce it off the rim, missed every thing, game over. IMO absolute stupid coaching from the Trojan bench Ga.State is experienced, started 3 Srs. Outstanding shooting team. You can say, Hagins should have known better than to foul their best shooter(19 pts per game). Who is responsible for Hagins guarding that shooter?? Same old ending. Almost without fail, game close at the end, Trojans lose.

I had little doubt we would lose in OT, but of course I stuck around. When you let the better team, tie it at the end, that's usually what happens. I agree we should have fouled before the shot. You do risk a smart player anticipating the foul and launching the ball up toward the basket and getting 3 shots. I think with them inbounding the ball with 5.2 seconds, the time to do it was right when player caught the inbounds pass. On the other hand, I would bet Kansas State had some players bigger than 6'5" on the court. Us getting the rebound, if they intentionally missed the second foul shot, was far from a sure thing.

I just can't fathom the coaching strategy on this one. When Ga Southern brought the ball down with 18 seconds left, everyone in our area was expecting us to foul so they would have no chance at a three point shot. If this is Steve's strategy to never foul in this situation, then this is a perfect example of why we lose games. You can blame it on a missed free throw here and there. You can blame it on Josh for fouling the three point shooter. But when it comes right down to it, those things wouldn't have mattered. We had the game won. We had a three point lead with very little time remaining. The only thing that could have beaten us at that time was a three pointer, and you foul the guy with the ball before he can shoot. He only gets two shots. Yes, something could have happened to still cost us the game, the odds were extremely slim. The strategy we used was one to keep from losing, instead of one to try and win. Just a horrible decision. This one should make CC's decision a little easier.

(02-15-2015 11:14 AM)outsideualr Wrote:  I just can't fathom the coaching strategy on this one. When Ga Southern brought the ball down with 18 seconds left, everyone in our area was expecting us to foul so they would have no chance at a three point shot. If this is Steve's strategy to never foul in this situation, then this is a perfect example of why we lose games. You can blame it on a missed free throw here and there. You can blame it on Josh for fouling the three point shooter. But when it comes right down to it, those things wouldn't have mattered. We had the game won. We had a three point lead with very little time remaining. The only thing that could have beaten us at that time was a three pointer, and you foul the guy with the ball before he can shoot. He only gets two shots. Yes, something could have happened to still cost us the game, the odds were extremely slim. The strategy we used was one to keep from losing, instead of one to try and win. Just a horrible decision. This one should make CC's decision a little easier.

Steve talked about the biggest mistake in the newspaper this morning regardless of where one stands on fouling up three or not. "We didn't want to leave our feet," Sheilds said of Haggins foul. "That's what we talked about."

If Haggins just stays on the ground as instructed, then Georgia Southern's player jumping into Haggins on the shot would not have resulted in a foul and would have almost certainly generated a miss. This is what makes coaches prematurely gray. You tell the players exactly what not to do and they do it anyway!

(02-15-2015 11:14 AM)outsideualr Wrote:  I just can't fathom the coaching strategy on this one. When Ga Southern brought the ball down with 18 seconds left, everyone in our area was expecting us to foul so they would have no chance at a three point shot. If this is Steve's strategy to never foul in this situation, then this is a perfect example of why we lose games. You can blame it on a missed free throw here and there. You can blame it on Josh for fouling the three point shooter. But when it comes right down to it, those things wouldn't have mattered. We had the game won. We had a three point lead with very little time remaining. The only thing that could have beaten us at that time was a three pointer, and you foul the guy with the ball before he can shoot. He only gets two shots. Yes, something could have happened to still cost us the game, the odds were extremely slim. The strategy we used was one to keep from losing, instead of one to try and win. Just a horrible decision. This one should make CC's decision a little easier.

You think a decision not to intentionally foul an opposing player will influence CC at all to fire Steve? is that really what you are saying?

No. I'm just naïve enough to believe that decision has already been made I just think this makes it a little easier. If we had fouled with 15-18 seconds left, and by some miracle Ga Southern still won the game, I think it would have shown that the coach was willing to make an aggressive decision to attempt to win the game and take responsibility for whatever happened. Instead he put the kids in a position to make a mistake that should have never happened, but remember, those kids are 18, 19 and 20 year olds. You can't expect them to not make mistakes, sometimes at crucial moments. Now he can say that we told the kids not to leave the floor when contesting a shot, and the kid gets all the blame for what happens in a crucial moment when he's trying to make a play. In fact, Josh should have never been put in that position. The game should have been over with us winning by at least one point. I could have easily lived with a loss if we had committed the foul, and somehow Ga Southern still managed to win the game. I'm still having trouble forgetting that loss because I believe our kids deserved to win, and the coach cost them the game. Or at least gave them a chance to lose, which they did.

(02-15-2015 11:53 AM)outsideualr Wrote:  No. I'm just naïve enough to believe that decision has already been made I just think this makes it a little easier. If we had fouled with 15-18 seconds left, and by some miracle Ga Southern still won the game, I think it would have shown that the coach was willing to make an aggressive decision to attempt to win the game and take responsibility for whatever happened. Instead he put the kids in a position to make a mistake that should have never happened, but remember, those kids are 18, 19 and 20 year olds. You can't expect them to not make mistakes, sometimes at crucial moments. Now he can say that we told the kids not to leave the floor when contesting a shot, and the kid gets all the blame for what happens in a crucial moment when he's trying to make a play. In fact, Josh should have never been put in that position. The game should have been over with us winning by at least one point. I could have easily lived with a loss if we had committed the foul, and somehow Ga Southern still managed to win the game. I'm still having trouble forgetting that loss because I believe our kids deserved to win, and the coach cost them the game. Or at least gave them a chance to lose, which they did.

Now that is one thing I bet both you and Jim T can agree on. That the decision on Steve has probably already been made. As I have stated before, I think program finances will be the biggest factor in that decision, whatever it is.

(02-15-2015 11:53 AM)outsideualr Wrote:  No. I'm just naïve enough to believe that decision has already been made I just think this makes it a little easier. If we had fouled with 15-18 seconds left, and by some miracle Ga Southern still won the game, I think it would have shown that the coach was willing to make an aggressive decision to attempt to win the game and take responsibility for whatever happened. Instead he put the kids in a position to make a mistake that should have never happened, but remember, those kids are 18, 19 and 20 year olds. You can't expect them to not make mistakes, sometimes at crucial moments. Now he can say that we told the kids not to leave the floor when contesting a shot, and the kid gets all the blame for what happens in a crucial moment when he's trying to make a play. In fact, Josh should have never been put in that position. The game should have been over with us winning by at least one point. I could have easily lived with a loss if we had committed the foul, and somehow Ga Southern still managed to win the game. I'm still having trouble forgetting that loss because I believe our kids deserved to win, and the coach cost them the game. Or at least gave them a chance to lose, which they did.

Assuming the decision has already been made, which is true, are you saying that the decision not to intentionally foul an opposing player simply makes it easier for CC to tell Steve that he is fired? Or easier to justify it to others? Assuming the personnel decision has already been made, what will that coaching decision make easier. Please don't try to put that stupid foul on anyone except the one who committed the foul. I would give Josh more credit than that. In his heart, you know Josh isn't thinking what you are saying, that is, Coach put me in a position to make a bonehead play. Josh has integrity and will recognize where exactly where responsibility for that play lies. No agenda.

If the decision has been made to make a change, as good as Chasse is at raising money, I'll bet he can convince a big giver or givers to put up the money needed, because it's necessary for the future success of the program. My predictions are usually suspect at best, as proven by my success, or lack thereof, on my infrequent visits to Oaklawn. I know what I believe should be done, and might well be, but I wouldn't put any money on it, other than purchasing my season tickets for next year.

(02-15-2015 12:18 PM)Jim T Wrote:  

(02-15-2015 11:53 AM)outsideualr Wrote:  No. I'm just naïve enough to believe that decision has already been made I just think this makes it a little easier. If we had fouled with 15-18 seconds left, and by some miracle Ga Southern still won the game, I think it would have shown that the coach was willing to make an aggressive decision to attempt to win the game and take responsibility for whatever happened. Instead he put the kids in a position to make a mistake that should have never happened, but remember, those kids are 18, 19 and 20 year olds. You can't expect them to not make mistakes, sometimes at crucial moments. Now he can say that we told the kids not to leave the floor when contesting a shot, and the kid gets all the blame for what happens in a crucial moment when he's trying to make a play. In fact, Josh should have never been put in that position. The game should have been over with us winning by at least one point. I could have easily lived with a loss if we had committed the foul, and somehow Ga Southern still managed to win the game. I'm still having trouble forgetting that loss because I believe our kids deserved to win, and the coach cost them the game. Or at least gave them a chance to lose, which they did.

Assuming the decision has already been made, which is true, are you saying that the decision not to intentionally foul an opposing player simply makes it easier for CC to tell Steve that he is fired? Or easier to justify it to others? Assuming the personnel decision has already been made, what will that coaching decision make easier. Please don't try to put that stupid foul on anyone who committed the foul. I would give Josh more credit than that. In his heart, you know Josh isn't thinking what you are saying, that is, Coach put me in a position to make a bonehead play. Josh has integrity and will recognize where exactly where responsibility for that play lies. No agenda.

The decision to foul or not to foul when you are up three at the end of the game has been going on for a long time and is likely to continue for a long time. There is no absolute answer there. However, place the blame here where it belongs: Squarely on Josh Haggins. He left his feet guarding a guy about 25 feet from the basket giving the offensive player the opportunity to create the foul on the three point shot. Haggins and the others had been specifically told not to leave their feet. So whether one thinks deciding to foul or not was the deciding factor in the game, I suggest you look at the player who didn't follow his coach's instructions.

(02-15-2015 12:18 PM)Jim T Wrote:  

(02-15-2015 11:53 AM)outsideualr Wrote:  No. I'm just naïve enough to believe that decision has already been made I just think this makes it a little easier. If we had fouled with 15-18 seconds left, and by some miracle Ga Southern still won the game, I think it would have shown that the coach was willing to make an aggressive decision to attempt to win the game and take responsibility for whatever happened. Instead he put the kids in a position to make a mistake that should have never happened, but remember, those kids are 18, 19 and 20 year olds. You can't expect them to not make mistakes, sometimes at crucial moments. Now he can say that we told the kids not to leave the floor when contesting a shot, and the kid gets all the blame for what happens in a crucial moment when he's trying to make a play. In fact, Josh should have never been put in that position. The game should have been over with us winning by at least one point. I could have easily lived with a loss if we had committed the foul, and somehow Ga Southern still managed to win the game. I'm still having trouble forgetting that loss because I believe our kids deserved to win, and the coach cost them the game. Or at least gave them a chance to lose, which they did.

Assuming the decision has already been made, which is true, are you saying that the decision not to intentionally foul an opposing player simply makes it easier for CC to tell Steve that he is fired? Or easier to justify it to others? Assuming the personnel decision has already been made, what will that coaching decision make easier. Please don't try to put that stupid foul on anyone who committed the foul. I would give Josh more credit than that. In his heart, you know Josh isn't thinking what you are saying, that is, Coach put me in a position to make a bonehead play. Josh has integrity and will recognize where exactly where responsibility for that play lies. No agenda.

I agree that Josh feels terrible about the foul. He was sitting on the bench with his head in his hands. And he wouldn't blame anyone else.
He has a great competitive spirit and plays to win. His foul was one of aggression, and sometimes you have to live with those with good players.

As far as a decision already being made, one way or the other, I really don't know. It's just a feeling I have. But back to the other, Josh probably only thinks about committing a foul that eventually cost us the game. It's MY opinion that he shouldn't have had to be in position to commit that foul. Look. I see the sun is out, the world is (mainly) still here (polar icecaps melting), so losing that game probably isn't that big a deal.

Wait a minute. I'm having a flashback. Eric Hightower of Ga Southern is shooting the ball with the clock running out, and makes it to knock us out of the NCAA tournament. Is Hewitt Eric Hightower reincarnated knocking us out of the SBC tournament? Oh no. It's bad karma all over again!

(02-15-2015 12:28 PM)outsideualr Wrote:  

(02-15-2015 12:18 PM)Jim T Wrote:  

(02-15-2015 11:53 AM)outsideualr Wrote:  No. I'm just naïve enough to believe that decision has already been made I just think this makes it a little easier. If we had fouled with 15-18 seconds left, and by some miracle Ga Southern still won the game, I think it would have shown that the coach was willing to make an aggressive decision to attempt to win the game and take responsibility for whatever happened. Instead he put the kids in a position to make a mistake that should have never happened, but remember, those kids are 18, 19 and 20 year olds. You can't expect them to not make mistakes, sometimes at crucial moments. Now he can say that we told the kids not to leave the floor when contesting a shot, and the kid gets all the blame for what happens in a crucial moment when he's trying to make a play. In fact, Josh should have never been put in that position. The game should have been over with us winning by at least one point. I could have easily lived with a loss if we had committed the foul, and somehow Ga Southern still managed to win the game. I'm still having trouble forgetting that loss because I believe our kids deserved to win, and the coach cost them the game. Or at least gave them a chance to lose, which they did.

Assuming the decision has already been made, which is true, are you saying that the decision not to intentionally foul an opposing player simply makes it easier for CC to tell Steve that he is fired? Or easier to justify it to others? Assuming the personnel decision has already been made, what will that coaching decision make easier. Please don't try to put that stupid foul on anyone who committed the foul. I would give Josh more credit than that. In his heart, you know Josh isn't thinking what you are saying, that is, Coach put me in a position to make a bonehead play. Josh has integrity and will recognize where exactly where responsibility for that play lies. No agenda.

I agree that Josh feels terrible about the foul. He was sitting on the bench with his head in his hands. And he wouldn't blame anyone else.
He has a great competitive spirit and plays to win. His foul was one of aggression, and sometimes you have to live with those with good players.

As far as a decision already being made, one way or the other, I really don't know. It's just a feeling I have. But back to the other, Josh probably only thinks about committing a foul that eventually cost us the game. It's MY opinion that he shouldn't have had to be in position to commit that foul. Look. I see the sun is out, the world is (mainly) still here (polar icecaps melting), so losing that game probably isn't that big a deal.

Wait a minute. I'm having a flashback. Eric Hightower of Ga Southern is shooting the ball with the clock running out, and makes it to knock us out of the NCAA tournament. Is Hewitt Eric Hightower reincarnated knocking us out of the SBC tournament? Oh no. It's bad karma all over again!

Right before Josh committed that foul, I turned to Ms. Mjs and said, "Why does the name Eric Hightower keep running through my mind?"

(02-15-2015 12:28 PM)outsideualr Wrote:  

(02-15-2015 12:18 PM)Jim T Wrote:  

(02-15-2015 11:53 AM)outsideualr Wrote:  No. I'm just naïve enough to believe that decision has already been made I just think this makes it a little easier. If we had fouled with 15-18 seconds left, and by some miracle Ga Southern still won the game, I think it would have shown that the coach was willing to make an aggressive decision to attempt to win the game and take responsibility for whatever happened. Instead he put the kids in a position to make a mistake that should have never happened, but remember, those kids are 18, 19 and 20 year olds. You can't expect them to not make mistakes, sometimes at crucial moments. Now he can say that we told the kids not to leave the floor when contesting a shot, and the kid gets all the blame for what happens in a crucial moment when he's trying to make a play. In fact, Josh should have never been put in that position. The game should have been over with us winning by at least one point. I could have easily lived with a loss if we had committed the foul, and somehow Ga Southern still managed to win the game. I'm still having trouble forgetting that loss because I believe our kids deserved to win, and the coach cost them the game. Or at least gave them a chance to lose, which they did.

Assuming the decision has already been made, which is true, are you saying that the decision not to intentionally foul an opposing player simply makes it easier for CC to tell Steve that he is fired? Or easier to justify it to others? Assuming the personnel decision has already been made, what will that coaching decision make easier. Please don't try to put that stupid foul on anyone who committed the foul. I would give Josh more credit than that. In his heart, you know Josh isn't thinking what you are saying, that is, Coach put me in a position to make a bonehead play. Josh has integrity and will recognize where exactly where responsibility for that play lies. No agenda.

I agree that Josh feels terrible about the foul. He was sitting on the bench with his head in his hands. And he wouldn't blame anyone else.
He has a great competitive spirit and plays to win. His foul was one of aggression, and sometimes you have to live with those with good players.

As far as a decision already being made, one way or the other, I really don't know. It's just a feeling I have. But back to the other, Josh probably only thinks about committing a foul that eventually cost us the game. It's MY opinion that he shouldn't have had to be in position to commit that foul. Look. I see the sun is out, the world is (mainly) still here (polar icecaps melting), so losing that game probably isn't that big a deal.

Wait a minute. I'm having a flashback. Eric Hightower of Ga Southern is shooting the ball with the clock running out, and makes it to knock us out of the NCAA tournament. Is Hewitt Eric Hightower reincarnated knocking us out of the SBC tournament? Oh no. It's bad karma all over again!

His foul was one of aggression- that absolutely was the WRONG thing to do in that situation and one he had been instructed not to do. Sure he feels bad, but that doesn't give him a pass for being stupid and not listening to the coaches.

(02-15-2015 12:26 PM)PTJR Wrote:  

(02-15-2015 12:18 PM)Jim T Wrote:  

(02-15-2015 11:53 AM)outsideualr Wrote:  No. I'm just naïve enough to believe that decision has already been made I just think this makes it a little easier. If we had fouled with 15-18 seconds left, and by some miracle Ga Southern still won the game, I think it would have shown that the coach was willing to make an aggressive decision to attempt to win the game and take responsibility for whatever happened. Instead he put the kids in a position to make a mistake that should have never happened, but remember, those kids are 18, 19 and 20 year olds. You can't expect them to not make mistakes, sometimes at crucial moments. Now he can say that we told the kids not to leave the floor when contesting a shot, and the kid gets all the blame for what happens in a crucial moment when he's trying to make a play. In fact, Josh should have never been put in that position. The game should have been over with us winning by at least one point. I could have easily lived with a loss if we had committed the foul, and somehow Ga Southern still managed to win the game. I'm still having trouble forgetting that loss because I believe our kids deserved to win, and the coach cost them the game. Or at least gave them a chance to lose, which they did.

Assuming the decision has already been made, which is true, are you saying that the decision not to intentionally foul an opposing player simply makes it easier for CC to tell Steve that he is fired? Or easier to justify it to others? Assuming the personnel decision has already been made, what will that coaching decision make easier. Please don't try to put that stupid foul on anyone who committed the foul. I would give Josh more credit than that. In his heart, you know Josh isn't thinking what you are saying, that is, Coach put me in a position to make a bonehead play. Josh has integrity and will recognize where exactly where responsibility for that play lies. No agenda.

The decision to foul or not to foul when you are up three at the end of the game has been going on for a long time and is likely to continue for a long time. There is no absolute answer there. However, place the blame here where it belongs: Squarely on Josh Haggins. He left his feet guarding a guy about 25 feet from the basket giving the offensive player the opportunity to create the foul on the three point shot. Haggins and the others had been specifically told not to leave their feet. So whether one thinks deciding to foul or not was the deciding factor in the game, I suggest you look at the player who didn't follow his coach's instructions.

Many of us have had teenagers. And how many times did we tell them to do something, and they did something different. And when you asked them why they did it, it was either "I forgot", or "I didn't understand", or "I didn't hear you say that", or something else. All I'm saying is that the coach could have made a conscious decision that would have probably, and I reiterate, probably, win the game for us, but he chose to leave it up to instructions made in the heat of the moment to teenagers. Obviously his children are not yet teenagers or he would know better.