In the thread on G5 vs P5 rivalries, someone asserted that Cincinnati-Louisville was not a rivalry because the schools do not hate each other. The poster CliftonAve said that it was a "sibling rivalry" where, "It got heated when the two schools played but when the other school played someone else you would have their back."

It made me wonder - what other rivalries have been built on mutual respect?

The ones I think of are Michigan-Michigan State, Kansas-Kansas State, Pitt-Syracuse, and Duke-UNC. But I'm just guessing and I could be way off. Also on an administrative level, Ohio State-Michigan is certainly based on respect, as are most SEC rivalries.

Navy-ND
USC-ND

I've been thinking about starting a thread on the different kinds of rivalries. It really depends on how you define these types of rivalries. If we are using Notre Dame/Navy as the standard here, then I'm going to be fairly strict with the definition as I don't think that many other games fit in the same category. If we are using the term mutual respect, I'd define it as rivalries where both teams look forward to the game as a big and important, but generally root and like the other team as well (this is beyond conference pride reasons). Generally in these, you don't do as much smack talk.

In that line of thought, the rivalries are few and far between. I cannot speak for all of them, but I doubt many instate games make it. Many of them fall into the big brother/little brother type of rivalry where one team has more advantages/a bigger name and the game feels like a chance to maintain/change that order at least briefly. Others instate games are more among equals, but then it's usually much more intense and there's a lot of smack talk.

I think most games along these lines have to be considered secondary rivalries. They are games that both sides like, but where both sides also point them out as big events more than a win/loss. I think The Little Brown Jug (Michigan/Minnesota) might be, but I'm not sure if that would apply to the Minnesota side so maybe not.

I think it would be useful to identify between which class or group we are talking about, alums, sidewalk fans, etc.

I don't think there is a rivalry in the nation that has a shred of mutual respect when it comes to sidewalk fans.

The whole idea of "mutual respect" is sort of the hallmark of a different group altogether.

(02-11-2015 10:03 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  In the thread on G5 vs P5 rivalries, someone asserted that Cincinnati-Louisville was not a rivalry because the schools do not hate each other. The poster CliftonAve said that it was a "sibling rivalry" where, "It got heated when the two schools played but when the other school played someone else you would have their back."

It made me wonder - what other rivalries have been built on mutual respect?

The Bayou Classic game, Grambling vs Southern certainly qualifies. Each side wants to win badly and losing hurts deeply, but it has a family vibe to it and in the end, everyone enjoys a big party and the bragging by the winner is good-natured.

It's not like say FSU vs Florida, where there is just this weird bitterness involved.

(02-11-2015 10:50 AM)ohio1317 Wrote:  I've been thinking about starting a thread on the different kinds of rivalries. It really depends on how you define these types of rivalries. If we are using Notre Dame/Navy as the standard here, then I'm going to be fairly strict with the definition as I don't think that many other games fit in the same category. If we are using the term mutual respect, I'd define it as rivalries where both teams look forward to the game as a big and important, but generally root and like the other team as well (this is beyond conference pride reasons). Generally in these, you don't do as much smack talk.

In that line of thought, the rivalries are few and far between. I cannot speak for all of them, but I doubt many instate games make it. Many of them fall into the big brother/little brother type of rivalry where one team has more advantages/a bigger name and the game feels like a chance to maintain/change that order at least briefly. Others instate games are more among equals, but then it's usually much more intense and there's a lot of smack talk.

I think most games along these lines have to be considered secondary rivalries. They are games that both sides like, but where both sides also point them out as big events more than a win/loss. I think The Little Brown Jug (Michigan/Minnesota) might be, but I'm not sure if that would apply to the Minnesota side so maybe not.

Kentucky-Louisville used to be that way in basketball. There was a lot of excitement in 1975 when both were in the final 4 and they were hoping to play each other in the finals. That definitely continued into the 80s. I get the impression its not that way anymore.

Kansas and Kansas State is another example of a rivalry with nuances. If you ask KU fans about it, I think you'd get a pretty broad consensus on the "respected rivalry" concept. Many of us root for KSU when we're not playing each other, and it probably doesn't hurt that we're generally successful against them in the sport we care about the most.

On the other hand, even though KSU has now had a strong upper hand for quite a while in the sport they care about the most, many of their fans are not fans of KU at all when they're not playing us - there's a lot of heat from that side.

I suspect there are two factors to this. First, from the KU side, until Missouri left for the SEC, they were the hated rival. That didn't diminish the rivalry with KSU, but it gave it a different vibe. From the KSU side, there's no doubt that there are some arrogant and entitled KU fans on the hoops side, and that doesn't endear us to them even if many of us are respectful. And as poor as KU's football history is, until Snyder came along their football was even worse, so some of our fans were probably obnoxious about football as well.

As with anything, this is a generalization, and there are certainly some KSU fans who have a "fraternal" perspective towards KU as well, but I do think that this rivalry has a different feel depending on which side you're looking at.

Army-Navy?

Its funny, as an Iowa fan 5 years ago when this whole latest round of realignment thing started, I did not care much if Iowa State would have ended up in the MW or the Big Leftover conference, but somewhere along the line, I started pulling for little brother and I now I want Iowa State to succeed, when not playing Iowa, of course.

Maybe its because ISU gets picked on in many realigment threads, and I feel a need to stick up for them. Other than their football team sucking every year, everything else, academics, attendance, BB, etc. screams power conference level.

I don't know what the proper labeling is. I do think there is a very distinct difference between Ohio State v Michigan and Ohio State v Michigan State. It's not that Ohio State v Michigan State isn't a big game. In recent years, it's actually been a bigger game on paper. But, it's not a rivalry in the sense that Ohio State v Michigan is.

If two fanbases regularly go at it even if its the month of June, it's a rivalry. I don't know exactly where the line is, but wherever it is I do feel that Louisville v Kentucky is on one side of it, and Louisville v Cincinnati is on another side of it. That's not to say that Louisville v Cincinnati isn't a big game. Hell, with it being a conference game, it's probably actually a more important game on paper. But, it doesn't fit my definition of a rivalry.

I would call Duke v Syracuse a showcase game, not a rivalry. It's a HUGE game, but not all huge games are bitter rivalry games. If you want to call that a "Showcase based on mutual respect" I would agree. But, I wouldn't call it a rivalry. Syracuse v Georgetown = rivalry. Duke v UNC = rivalry. NC State v UNC = rivalry (within the state, that one may actually be more bitter than Duke v UNC).

Duke v Virginia = Big game showcase, not a rivalry.

Another indicator is that if you have a laundry list of reasons about how you have "nothing to gain" by playing a team, and you feel the need to reference that list on a weekly basis, chances are you're proving your point in the converse, and in reality it is a rivalry. (ie Kansas v Mizzou, Texas v TAMU, West Virginia v Pitt, Xavier v Dayton (a smaller scale, but both are quick to point out how they don't need the other side, and neither can stop talking about the other side).

The only people who would tell you those aren't rivalries are the fanbases themselves who feel that admitting it's a rivalry would be giving undue respect to the other side. Everyone else can see that those are all rivalries (or would be if they were to resume playing).

(02-11-2015 10:55 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  I think it would be useful to identify between which class or group we are talking about, alums, sidewalk fans, etc.

I don't think there is a rivalry in the nation that has a shred of mutual respect when it comes to sidewalk fans.

The whole idea of "mutual respect" is sort of the hallmark of a different group altogether.

Good point, it is a very big difference.

For me, the Iowa and Minnesota relationship is a rivalry of mutual respect. Iowa fans hate Iowa State. They want to beat Minnesota. There is always a different reason. During the years when Minnesota was a bottom dweller, which seemed to last awhile but hasn't always been the case for Minnesota, it was all about making sure you didn't allow Minnesota to steal a win.

Minnesota has traditionally played their best ball against Iowa. What I loved about Minnesota this year was that they played their best ball against other teams too, thus they had a good season. In the past though it was most frustrating to see them play like a bunch of goons all season long and yet when they played against Iowa they seemed to actually care.

Both sides want the win and as you mention the different types of fans, it is across the board with Iowa and Minnesota. The top level alums and booster types respect each other and the t shirt wielders want to either see their team run across the field to steal that trophy away from the other team's sideline or they don't want to see the other team run over and invade their team's sideline for the trophy.

I know most people probably think the rivalry doesn't matter and that is fine but that moment when one team runs across the field and is willing to barrel through the other team in order to steal the trophy away from them, well it is a very fun moment to be part of.

(02-11-2015 11:50 AM)goofus Wrote:  Its funny, as an Iowa fan 5 years ago when this whole latest round of realignment thing started, I did not care much if Iowa State would have ended up in the MW or the Big Leftover conference, but somewhere along the line, I started pulling for little brother and I now I want Iowa State to succeed, when not playing Iowa, of course.

Maybe its because ISU gets picked on in many realigment threads, and I feel a need to stick up for them. Other than their football team sucking every year, everything else, academics, attendance, BB, etc. screams power conference level.

I would feel that way but I have found that quite a few Cyclone fans do not feel the same. Do unto others as they allow you to do by doing it themselves first, that's my karmic creed.

They can be incredibly annoying after a win. Much like many of the other goomba tribal minded fans that you see in sports forums.

I like the higher end folks who talk smart trash. They do it with a smile and a toast of glasses. They also do it with their pocketbooks. It is just a different mindset and mental arrangement.

(02-11-2015 11:24 AM)BewareThePhog Wrote:  Kansas and Kansas State is another example of a rivalry with nuances. If you ask KU fans about it, I think you'd get a pretty broad consensus on the "respected rivalry" concept. Many of us root for KSU when we're not playing each other, and it probably doesn't hurt that we're generally successful against them in the sport we care about the most.

On the other hand, even though KSU has now had a strong upper hand for quite a while in the sport they care about the most, many of their fans are not fans of KU at all when they're not playing us - there's a lot of heat from that side.

I suspect there are two factors to this. First, from the KU side, until Missouri left for the SEC, they were the hated rival. That didn't diminish the rivalry with KSU, but it gave it a different vibe. From the KSU side, there's no doubt that there are some arrogant and entitled KU fans on the hoops side, and that doesn't endear us to them even if many of us are respectful. And as poor as KU's football history is, until Snyder came along their football was even worse, so some of our fans were probably obnoxious about football as well.

As with anything, this is a generalization, and there are certainly some KSU fans who have a "fraternal" perspective towards KU as well, but I do think that this rivalry has a different feel depending on which side you're looking at.

Iowa and Iowa State are just like that.

(02-11-2015 08:57 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  

(02-11-2015 11:50 AM)goofus Wrote:  Its funny, as an Iowa fan 5 years ago when this whole latest round of realignment thing started, I did not care much if Iowa State would have ended up in the MW or the Big Leftover conference, but somewhere along the line, I started pulling for little brother and I now I want Iowa State to succeed, when not playing Iowa, of course.

Maybe its because ISU gets picked on in many realigment threads, and I feel a need to stick up for them. Other than their football team sucking every year, everything else, academics, attendance, BB, etc. screams power conference level.

I would feel that way but I have found that quite a few Cyclone fans do not feel the same. Do unto others as they allow you to do by doing it themselves first, that's my karmic creed.

They can be incredibly annoying after a win. Much like many of the other goomba tribal minded fans that you see in sports forums.

I like the higher end folks who talk smart trash. They do it with a smile and a toast of glasses. They also do it with their pocketbooks. It is just a different mindset and mental arrangement.

I good friend of mine is an ISU alum and I assure you he does not like Iowa. In my mind, that's okay. If there isn't a certain amount of disdain (usually unfounded bs), it's not a real rivalry.

As a Spartan I respect Michigan's academics and recognize their former excellence in football. I would be happy if they never won another athletic competition. Generally speaking Michigan fans, alums and athletes have no respect for Michigan State in any form or fashion.

I think generally out of Pitt's four historical annual opponents in football, Pitt-Syracuse and Pitt-ND are based on mutual respect but neither are primary rivals so it's a little different.

Pitt-WVU and Pitt-PSU definitely are not built on mutual respect although I personally have found PSU fans to be fine when attending a game there.

That said, college football just isn't the same for me without annual games against PSU and WVU.

(02-11-2015 08:53 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  

(02-11-2015 10:55 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  I think it would be useful to identify between which class or group we are talking about, alums, sidewalk fans, etc.

I don't think there is a rivalry in the nation that has a shred of mutual respect when it comes to sidewalk fans.

The whole idea of "mutual respect" is sort of the hallmark of a different group altogether.

Good point, it is a very big difference.

For me, the Iowa and Minnesota relationship is a rivalry of mutual respect. Iowa fans hate Iowa State. They want to beat Minnesota. There is always a different reason. During the years when Minnesota was a bottom dweller, which seemed to last awhile but hasn't always been the case for Minnesota, it was all about making sure you didn't allow Minnesota to steal a win.

Minnesota has traditionally played their best ball against Iowa. What I loved about Minnesota this year was that they played their best ball against other teams too, thus they had a good season. In the past though it was most frustrating to see them play like a bunch of goons all season long and yet when they played against Iowa they seemed to actually care.

Both sides want the win and as you mention the different types of fans, it is across the board with Iowa and Minnesota. The top level alums and booster types respect each other and the t shirt wielders want to either see their team run across the field to steal that trophy away from the other team's sideline or they don't want to see the other team run over and invade their team's sideline for the trophy.

I know most people probably think the rivalry doesn't matter and that is fine but that moment when one team runs across the field and is willing to barrel through the other team in order to steal the trophy away from them, well it is a very fun moment to be part of.

Good post.

As an Sparty fan, I have NO respect for the scum that is called Michigan. I do however respect Notre Dame. None of us care about the Penn State or Indiana games.

As an Eastern fan, I respect and envy Western and Central, I dream of the Eagles soaring over them and becoming the dominant of the Michigan MAC.

Living in Raleigh and being happy when Carolina, NC State and Duke all win puts me in a very small minority. Far more likely is the situation where a local fan says "the happiest days in my life are when (my team) wins and (your team) loses".

I absolutely don't see mutual respect between UNC and NC State. I think many State fans simply hate Carolina when they win and hate Carolina when they lose, no matter who they are playing. To a degree it seems that UNC fans care less about State when they are playing some other school, and that fact seems to fuel even further Wolfpack fans' feelings that Carolina doesn't respect them.

There is more respect between UNC and Duke, but there's a lot of hatred, too. For a long time (20 years or more) Duke's football program had declined to a point where some Carolina fans didn't hate Duke so much as they pitied them (only on the gridiron). So it's hard to say there was mutual respect during that era. But now that Duke is once again respectable, I think that's returning. Even then, during an earlier period of Duke resurgence, I wasn't feeling much respect. But that's largely due to the differences between Steve Spurrier and David Cutcliffe more than the schools and players themselves.

(02-11-2015 10:03 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  In the thread on G5 vs P5 rivalries, someone asserted that Cincinnati-Louisville was not a rivalry because the schools do not hate each other. The poster CliftonAve said that it was a "sibling rivalry" where, "It got heated when the two schools played but when the other school played someone else you would have their back."

I really like this description. Cincinnati's a school that I love to hate, I love to pick on it's fans, but there was never any real animosity between the two fan bases or schools. I may (or may not, I dunno) be a part of a minority, but I really hate that we're not playing the Bearcats regularly anymore. The close proximity between the schools + the similar backgrounds really made it entertaining.