Lots of good players have come through UT. But not so much in my short 20 year life time. #20 happens to be my number because my Aunt Kelly Savage wore it, as well as others I grew up watching like Justin Ingram and Nick Moore. Tim Riser and Tim Selgo also wore the great 20 for Toledo. Riser is the assist leader all time at UT, so is Juice in the same league as that Rocket legend?
Would Juice make the first team all Rocket History Team? And what are his totals in assists and points in Rocket history? Utrockets.com hasn't updated their stats in a year.. For those who have witnessed the hay day of Rocket basketball. Is Juice the greatest? One of the greatest?
(This post was last modified: 01-27-2015 05:34 PM by UofToledoFans.)
Best I've seen although Riser was misused in my opinion. Juice can own a game as he did Saturday . Unfortunately, he can disappear ocassionally. He relishes the big stage though. If not for Fowler I'd say he's clear cut ahead of all MAC PGs in his time but Fowler exists and may be better. Juice will play pro somewhere but not in the NBA.
Tim Rieser had the benefit of playing with some pretty good talent around him as I recall--more so than Juice in his career. Agree with H2O that he was underutilized--Tim was a very good offensive player who I believe scored 50 (or more) in one of his HS games before they had the 3point shot.
(01-27-2015 07:00 PM)bcunn3128 Wrote: Tim Rieser had the benefit of playing with some pretty good talent around him as I recall--more so than Juice in his career. Agree with H2O that he was underutilized--Tim was a very good offensive player who I believe scored 50 (or more) in one of his HS games before they had the 3point shot.
Rieser was also a big scorer in the English pro leagues.
I think Juice is the best because he has every part of the game. Has there ever been a more clutch shooter with the game on the line? Brown is on track to to be in the top five in career 3-point FG percentage, top 10 in free throw percentage, moved into second place for career assists early this season and could become the all-time leader for minutes played in UT history.
BTW, did you see that Rudley applied for the UT presidency?
(01-28-2015 02:14 AM)DetroitRocket Wrote: I think Juice is the best because he has every part of the game. Has there ever been a more clutch shooter with the game on the line? Brown is on track to to be in the top five in career 3-point FG percentage, top 10 in free throw percentage, moved into second place for career assists early this season and could become the all-time leader for minutes played in UT history.
BTW, did you see that Rudley applied for the UT presidency?
The oldtimers don't have a shot at a lot of the career records because of the shorter seasons and freshmen not being eligible to play on the varsity teams.
I believe to be considered among the best you must have a MAC Championship on your resume. Leadership, for a point guard, is every bit as important as ppg. Jay Lehman belongs on the list of best point guards.
(01-28-2015 08:31 AM)rockytop Wrote: I believe to be considered among the best you must have a MAC Championship on your resume. Leadership, for a point guard, is every bit as important as ppg. Jay Lehman belongs on the list of best point guards.
(01-28-2015 08:31 AM)rockytop Wrote: I believe to be considered among the best you must have a MAC Championship on your resume. Leadership, for a point guard, is every bit as important as ppg. Jay Lehman belongs on the list of best point guards.
(01-28-2015 08:31 AM)rockytop Wrote: I believe to be considered among the best you must have a MAC Championship on your resume. Leadership, for a point guard, is every bit as important as ppg. Jay Lehman belongs on the list of best point guards.
(01-28-2015 08:31 AM)rockytop Wrote: I believe to be considered among the best you must have a MAC Championship on your resume. Leadership, for a point guard, is every bit as important as ppg. Jay Lehman belongs on the list of best point guards.
Lehman made an interesting comment last night. When Bier said Jon-Jon should have gotten the ball to Juice near the game' send so Brown could shoot the FTs Lehman said "Brown should have gone and got it". That's leadership.
(01-28-2015 08:31 AM)rockytop Wrote: I believe to be considered among the best you must have a MAC Championship on your resume. Leadership, for a point guard, is every bit as important as ppg. Jay Lehman belongs on the list of best point guards.
We won a MAC championship last season.
That is true but winning the regular season only gives you the right to hang a banner and (these days) expect an automatic bid to the NIT.
IMO the REAL championship is the MAC Tournament that gives you the right to hang an banner and an automatic bid to the NCAA Tournament which is the Holy Grail of collegiate basketball.
No one (outside of a few homer fans and a few totally die-hard MAC fans) ever remember the former; however, even casual fans usually remember the latter. A trip to the NCAA is the REAL reward and that is what people remember.
For example, I can tell you that if UT doesn't make the NCAA this March, that will be 35 years since their last trip. I know the Rockets went to the NIT last year but I can't tell you the last time before that they went----maybe when Justin Ingram, Tino Valencia and that crew were all seniors and they lost to Florida State (I believe) in the NIT?
lehman was the steadiest UT pg i've seen. wasn't much at getting his shot one on one, but great at running the offense and not turning the ball over. vey consistent intensity.
reiser was the best passing pg i've ever seen at UT or anywhere else. could see teammates about to come open, look away and then drop a dime to where he knew they'd be. probably would have been a national name if he played in a run n gun type system. also a really good athlete. didn't have the big hands to dunk much but had no problem elevating to the rim.
keith wade was a really solid ut pg many people forget. started out as a wing in jay eck's first yr and transitioned to the point. by his jr and sr years was really good, especially on the break. he and craig sutters were the best dunk combo at ut until juice and jd. wade came up 1 point short of a mac tourney title back in the late 80s.
juice is overall the best pg at UT in terms of his ability to take over games, make big shots, score and break down defenses. the issue is that he plays to his competition too much, and kinda cruises for stretches if he thinks he can just turn it on as needed. if he decides to go all out every game down the stretch i think we will dance, but he has to have that mindset. as an aside he deserves a lot of credit for turning around the program, coming here on the cusp of horrific his name shall not be mentioned years and teaming w r pearson to turn the program around.
Craig Thames is who I thought dominated numerous games...dunked like Weatherspoon for a small guy and could steal the ball from anybody. Even in Alumni games lol
(01-28-2015 08:31 AM)rockytop Wrote: I believe to be considered among the best you must have a MAC Championship on your resume. Leadership, for a point guard, is every bit as important as ppg. Jay Lehman belongs on the list of best point guards.
We won a MAC championship last season.
That is true but winning the regular season only gives you the right to hang a banner and (these days) expect an automatic bid to the NIT.
IMO the REAL championship is the MAC Tournament that gives you the right to hang an banner and an automatic bid to the NCAA Tournament which is the Holy Grail of collegiate basketball.
No one (outside of a few homer fans and a few totally die-hard MAC fans) ever remember the former; however, even casual fans usually remember the latter. A trip to the NCAA is the REAL reward and that is what people remember.
For example, I can tell you that if UT doesn't make the NCAA this March, that will be 35 years since their last trip. I know the Rockets went to the NIT last year but I can't tell you the last time before that they went----maybe when Justin Ingram, Tino Valencia and that crew were all seniors and they lost to Florida State (I believe) in the NIT?
Something to remember is that prior to 1980, there was no MAC Tournament, so winning the regular season championship granted you the automatic bid to the Big Dance. I believe that finishing with the best record in the conference is still a great achievement that should be celebrated despite the fact that there is no longer the great reward that there once was. Most of those great Rocket players that went to the Big Dance that have been mentioned in this thread didn't have to win the MAC Tournament to get there, just the regular season title.
Yes, prior to last season, the last NIT team was the 2006-2007 Rockets that won the regular season title and lost to Florida State in the first round. That was the senior year of Ingram, Valencia, and Keonta Howell.
(This post was last modified: 01-28-2015 04:14 PM by RocketBBallFan.)
(01-28-2015 03:13 PM)SeniorBearcat Wrote: Craig Thames is who I thought dominated numerous games...dunked like Weatherspoon for a small guy and could steal the ball from anybody. Even in Alumni games lol
Thames was awesome but I don't think of him as a 1. One year at the midpoint of the season he was in the Top Ten of every MAC stat, including rebounds and blocked shots, at 5'11". One of my fave Rockets, and yeah, he could throw down.
(01-28-2015 03:13 PM)SeniorBearcat Wrote: Craig Thames is who I thought dominated numerous games...dunked like Weatherspoon for a small guy and could steal the ball from anybody. Even in Alumni games lol
No one I'd rather see with the ball when the clock's down and you need a big three for the win than.....A J Shellenbarger?
