Instead of comparing Josh to Cal or Roy, let's compare him to someone more reasonable like Wayne Yates.

(01-06-2015 10:29 AM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  

(01-06-2015 10:02 AM)Tgrrfan Wrote:  

(01-06-2015 07:57 AM)450bench Wrote:  

(01-05-2015 05:35 PM)Tgrrfan Wrote:  

(01-05-2015 02:53 PM)450bench Wrote:  How do we know? We haven't seen it. That's why you use it in the low level games we just had over the last few weeks. Also something Pastner refused to do.
You have got to mix it in.

What are you talking about?!? One of the best examples is in one of the posters sig. right in this forum. I won't call out players, because that's not ever a good thing, but these kids have never been taught about zone defenses. Especially the more complicated ones

Then Pastner should be fired right now instead of the end of the season.

That's not on Pastner. You can see they are in a zone. They know where their responsibilities are in the zone. You can see that they have practiced it. But in game situations kids revert back to what they have been doing for the last 12 years. Bad habits reinforced by bad coaches. "AAU" ball mentality. Ever see 3rd graders play basketball? I have, because I used to coach them. That's how a lot of college players play. 5 players swarm to the ball on defense and whoever has the ball coming across halfcourt jacks up the shot.

If Pastner has a fault it is this. When he recruits players he sees athletic ability and if the kid can score the ball. He believes that he can teach him defense. But what Josh doesn't look for is a kid that's got "it". A natural understanding of the game. Some of us call it fundamentals. Instinctively knowing where to be, when to pass, when to shot fake, when to lean into a defender to draw a foul, how to guard 2 guys when they go on a fast break the other way, how to rub a screen. Again, not to jump on any particular player, we have two players who can't dribble on our team. If you know basketball, you know who they are. We have a guy who can't catch an entry pass, fumbles every rebound. You can coach him over and over, but if he doesn't listen or - in most cases - game situations gets rushed, it's a turnover.

Sometimes players will eventually get it, a lot of times they won't. This year we see Austin "getting it". Freshmen are exempt. They are freshmen and need to get up to speed on the D1 game before we can judge. Many here are right that last year Josh should have had a PG get minutes in mop up to get some experience. 4 senior guards are nice until the next year - as we are finding out.

Josh is just not a defensive coach. He hardly ever subs for bad defense. I wish I had a nickel for every time he called a sub back from the scorers table when the player he was going to replace made a shot. It sends a bad message imo.

I mostly can't argue with this. He does sub for bad defense, but you are right when you say that if that player goes down to the other end of the court and makes a shot he leaves him in. I agree that DOES send a wrong message. On the other hand haven't we all been screaming that Josh needs to let players play through their mistakes? After the horrendous amount of turnovers at the beginning of the season it was obvious that that became a primary point of emphasis. Not missed assignments on defense or missed shots, but turnovers. Josh would sub you if you turned the ball over, and with 15-20 t/o's a game his substitution patterns looked nuts to most people, including GP.

So Josh has now decided to let them play through them. Pretty much everyone thinks it should have been this way from the beginning, but if you are Pastner you are thinking "Hey, I've got an all-SEC guard from Vanderbilt so I don't have to worry about the PG position now". NOBODY thought Kedren would have come in here and LITERALLY FALL DOWN on the court with no contact. We all stared in disbelief. All-SEC PG's don't do that. I also think there were other issues that had nothing to do with his weight. We've seen great fat PG's (Khalid El-amin) who could hoop it up like nobody's business. Hell, Andre Allen wasn't too bad when he hadn't partaken of the herb.

(01-06-2015 11:01 AM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  Instead of comparing Josh to Cal or Roy, let's compare him to someone more reasonable like Wayne Yates.

If Josh keeps at his current pace, he will be Lon Kruger in 20 years

(01-06-2015 12:30 PM)Tgrrfan Wrote:  

(01-06-2015 10:29 AM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  

(01-06-2015 10:02 AM)Tgrrfan Wrote:  

(01-06-2015 07:57 AM)450bench Wrote:  

(01-05-2015 05:35 PM)Tgrrfan Wrote:  What are you talking about?!? One of the best examples is in one of the posters sig. right in this forum. I won't call out players, because that's not ever a good thing, but these kids have never been taught about zone defenses. Especially the more complicated ones

Then Pastner should be fired right now instead of the end of the season.

That's not on Pastner. You can see they are in a zone. They know where their responsibilities are in the zone. You can see that they have practiced it. But in game situations kids revert back to what they have been doing for the last 12 years. Bad habits reinforced by bad coaches. "AAU" ball mentality. Ever see 3rd graders play basketball? I have, because I used to coach them. That's how a lot of college players play. 5 players swarm to the ball on defense and whoever has the ball coming across halfcourt jacks up the shot.

If Pastner has a fault it is this. When he recruits players he sees athletic ability and if the kid can score the ball. He believes that he can teach him defense. But what Josh doesn't look for is a kid that's got "it". A natural understanding of the game. Some of us call it fundamentals. Instinctively knowing where to be, when to pass, when to shot fake, when to lean into a defender to draw a foul, how to guard 2 guys when they go on a fast break the other way, how to rub a screen. Again, not to jump on any particular player, we have two players who can't dribble on our team. If you know basketball, you know who they are. We have a guy who can't catch an entry pass, fumbles every rebound. You can coach him over and over, but if he doesn't listen or - in most cases - game situations gets rushed, it's a turnover.

Sometimes players will eventually get it, a lot of times they won't. This year we see Austin "getting it". Freshmen are exempt. They are freshmen and need to get up to speed on the D1 game before we can judge. Many here are right that last year Josh should have had a PG get minutes in mop up to get some experience. 4 senior guards are nice until the next year - as we are finding out.

Josh is just not a defensive coach. He hardly ever subs for bad defense. I wish I had a nickel for every time he called a sub back from the scorers table when the player he was going to replace made a shot. It sends a bad message imo.

I mostly can't argue with this. He does sub for bad defense, but you are right when you say that if that player goes down to the other end of the court and makes a shot he leaves him in. I agree that DOES send a wrong message. On the other hand haven't we all been screaming that Josh needs to let players play through their mistakes? After the horrendous amount of turnovers at the beginning of the season it was obvious that that became a primary point of emphasis. Not missed assignments on defense or missed shots, but turnovers. Josh would sub you if you turned the ball over, and with 15-20 t/o's a game his substitution patterns looked nuts to most people, including GP.

So Josh has now decided to let them play through them. Pretty much everyone thinks it should have been this way from the beginning, but if you are Pastner you are thinking "Hey, I've got an all-SEC guard from Vanderbilt so I don't have to worry about the PG position now". NOBODY thought Kedren would have come in here and LITERALLY FALL DOWN on the court with no contact. We all stared in disbelief. All-SEC PG's don't do that. I also think there were other issues that had nothing to do with his weight. We've seen great fat PG's (Khalid El-amin) who could hoop it up like nobody's business. Hell, Andre Allen wasn't too bad when he hadn't partaken of the herb.

I don't like it when he subs for PHYSICAL mistakes. I have no problem when he subs for not blocking out or losing your man or not diving on the floor for loose balls. Those are what I call either lack of effort or fatigue. A guy turning the ball over trying to get a teammate a layup is NOT lack of effort.

(01-06-2015 01:14 PM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  

(01-06-2015 12:30 PM)Tgrrfan Wrote:  

(01-06-2015 10:29 AM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  

(01-06-2015 10:02 AM)Tgrrfan Wrote:  

(01-06-2015 07:57 AM)450bench Wrote:  Then Pastner should be fired right now instead of the end of the season.

That's not on Pastner. You can see they are in a zone. They know where their responsibilities are in the zone. You can see that they have practiced it. But in game situations kids revert back to what they have been doing for the last 12 years. Bad habits reinforced by bad coaches. "AAU" ball mentality. Ever see 3rd graders play basketball? I have, because I used to coach them. That's how a lot of college players play. 5 players swarm to the ball on defense and whoever has the ball coming across halfcourt jacks up the shot.

If Pastner has a fault it is this. When he recruits players he sees athletic ability and if the kid can score the ball. He believes that he can teach him defense. But what Josh doesn't look for is a kid that's got "it". A natural understanding of the game. Some of us call it fundamentals. Instinctively knowing where to be, when to pass, when to shot fake, when to lean into a defender to draw a foul, how to guard 2 guys when they go on a fast break the other way, how to rub a screen. Again, not to jump on any particular player, we have two players who can't dribble on our team. If you know basketball, you know who they are. We have a guy who can't catch an entry pass, fumbles every rebound. You can coach him over and over, but if he doesn't listen or - in most cases - game situations gets rushed, it's a turnover.

Sometimes players will eventually get it, a lot of times they won't. This year we see Austin "getting it". Freshmen are exempt. They are freshmen and need to get up to speed on the D1 game before we can judge. Many here are right that last year Josh should have had a PG get minutes in mop up to get some experience. 4 senior guards are nice until the next year - as we are finding out.

Josh is just not a defensive coach. He hardly ever subs for bad defense. I wish I had a nickel for every time he called a sub back from the scorers table when the player he was going to replace made a shot. It sends a bad message imo.

I mostly can't argue with this. He does sub for bad defense, but you are right when you say that if that player goes down to the other end of the court and makes a shot he leaves him in. I agree that DOES send a wrong message. On the other hand haven't we all been screaming that Josh needs to let players play through their mistakes? After the horrendous amount of turnovers at the beginning of the season it was obvious that that became a primary point of emphasis. Not missed assignments on defense or missed shots, but turnovers. Josh would sub you if you turned the ball over, and with 15-20 t/o's a game his substitution patterns looked nuts to most people, including GP.

So Josh has now decided to let them play through them. Pretty much everyone thinks it should have been this way from the beginning, but if you are Pastner you are thinking "Hey, I've got an all-SEC guard from Vanderbilt so I don't have to worry about the PG position now". NOBODY thought Kedren would have come in here and LITERALLY FALL DOWN on the court with no contact. We all stared in disbelief. All-SEC PG's don't do that. I also think there were other issues that had nothing to do with his weight. We've seen great fat PG's (Khalid El-amin) who could hoop it up like nobody's business. Hell, Andre Allen wasn't too bad when he hadn't partaken of the herb.

I don't like it when he subs for PHYSICAL mistakes. I have no problem when he subs for not blocking out or losing your man or not diving on the floor for loose balls. Those are what I call either lack of effort or fatigue. A guy turning the ball over trying to get a teammate a layup is NOT lack of effort.

Agree completely...

He will sub for missed shots...If you get a charge...Drive the lane and get stuck...

But he will not sub a guy for doing essentially nothing on offense but passing the ball around the perimeter.

But it just irks me when he subs for missing a shot that a kid has made many times before...If it is a BAD shot you pull him for the decision not the result. If he is capable of making the shot it is NOT a bad shot...If he makes it at PRACTICE it is not a bad shot...Just because he misses it in the game does not make it a bad shot.

Honestly the way Josh subs leads me to believe that his positivity attitude is a bunch of crap...If he truly believed in being positive he would truly believe in his players abilities and would talk to and build his players up after missed shots, he wouldn't just pull them and punish them. As in "Hey Pookie, I know you can make that shot I have seen you make it 100 times, keep shooting"

(01-06-2015 01:14 PM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  

(01-06-2015 12:30 PM)Tgrrfan Wrote:  

(01-06-2015 10:29 AM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  

(01-06-2015 10:02 AM)Tgrrfan Wrote:  

(01-06-2015 07:57 AM)450bench Wrote:  Then Pastner should be fired right now instead of the end of the season.

That's not on Pastner. You can see they are in a zone. They know where their responsibilities are in the zone. You can see that they have practiced it. But in game situations kids revert back to what they have been doing for the last 12 years. Bad habits reinforced by bad coaches. "AAU" ball mentality. Ever see 3rd graders play basketball? I have, because I used to coach them. That's how a lot of college players play. 5 players swarm to the ball on defense and whoever has the ball coming across halfcourt jacks up the shot.

If Pastner has a fault it is this. When he recruits players he sees athletic ability and if the kid can score the ball. He believes that he can teach him defense. But what Josh doesn't look for is a kid that's got "it". A natural understanding of the game. Some of us call it fundamentals. Instinctively knowing where to be, when to pass, when to shot fake, when to lean into a defender to draw a foul, how to guard 2 guys when they go on a fast break the other way, how to rub a screen. Again, not to jump on any particular player, we have two players who can't dribble on our team. If you know basketball, you know who they are. We have a guy who can't catch an entry pass, fumbles every rebound. You can coach him over and over, but if he doesn't listen or - in most cases - game situations gets rushed, it's a turnover.

Sometimes players will eventually get it, a lot of times they won't. This year we see Austin "getting it". Freshmen are exempt. They are freshmen and need to get up to speed on the D1 game before we can judge. Many here are right that last year Josh should have had a PG get minutes in mop up to get some experience. 4 senior guards are nice until the next year - as we are finding out.

Josh is just not a defensive coach. He hardly ever subs for bad defense. I wish I had a nickel for every time he called a sub back from the scorers table when the player he was going to replace made a shot. It sends a bad message imo.

I mostly can't argue with this. He does sub for bad defense, but you are right when you say that if that player goes down to the other end of the court and makes a shot he leaves him in. I agree that DOES send a wrong message. On the other hand haven't we all been screaming that Josh needs to let players play through their mistakes? After the horrendous amount of turnovers at the beginning of the season it was obvious that that became a primary point of emphasis. Not missed assignments on defense or missed shots, but turnovers. Josh would sub you if you turned the ball over, and with 15-20 t/o's a game his substitution patterns looked nuts to most people, including GP.

So Josh has now decided to let them play through them. Pretty much everyone thinks it should have been this way from the beginning, but if you are Pastner you are thinking "Hey, I've got an all-SEC guard from Vanderbilt so I don't have to worry about the PG position now". NOBODY thought Kedren would have come in here and LITERALLY FALL DOWN on the court with no contact. We all stared in disbelief. All-SEC PG's don't do that. I also think there were other issues that had nothing to do with his weight. We've seen great fat PG's (Khalid El-amin) who could hoop it up like nobody's business. Hell, Andre Allen wasn't too bad when he hadn't partaken of the herb.

I don't like it when he subs for PHYSICAL mistakes. I have no problem when he subs for not blocking out or losing your man or not diving on the floor for loose balls. Those are what I call either lack of effort or fatigue. A guy turning the ball over trying to get a teammate a layup is NOT lack of effort.

Agreed. Heart trumps mistakes

So...where does the buck stop?

(01-06-2015 02:58 PM)JTS Wrote:  So...where does the buck stop?

Hopefully with Mike Rose, Alan Graf and Bill Laurie

I think someone should start another thread about it.

(01-06-2015 03:30 PM)oldmangrizz Wrote:  I think someone should start another thread about it.

Be patient

(01-06-2015 03:30 PM)oldmangrizz Wrote:  I think someone should start another thread about it.

Yeah. Thinking the same thing. Preferably from another someone who hates to start negative threads.

(01-06-2015 03:31 PM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  

(01-06-2015 03:30 PM)oldmangrizz Wrote:  I think someone should start another thread about it.

Be patient

There will be many, but, like the attendance at the FedEx Forum, participation here is dwindling.

(01-06-2015 03:31 PM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  

(01-06-2015 03:30 PM)oldmangrizz Wrote:  I think someone should start another thread about it.

Be patient

But can we really afford the buyout on the other threads? And what other threads could we realistically start? There really aren't any "Wow Subjects" that could start a new thread.

I had a really bad case of diarrhea once. It was an absolute mess, just like some of these threads lately.

(01-05-2015 04:34 PM)tigers1125 Wrote:  

(01-05-2015 02:57 PM)Titans3775 Wrote:  Well at least Pastner has unified the fan base...against himself. He has had 3 different sets of players in his time here. Is it bad that I think that his 1st year Cal leftovers were his best team, but far from the most talented? The guy has had a stacked roster every year he has been here because of his recruiting, but this year with only 2 or 3 players of his normal stackedness the wheels have come off. It doesn't help that we have a 2-guard and a 5 that routinely go 0-fer in the starting lineup.

Last year's team was a mis seed away from being in Sweet 16. Everyone nationally was surprised the Tigers got seeded that low. That is huge in matchups. Last years team was pretty good.

^ That's like an argument with a tree!!! If this is your logic then it's a moot point.....Once the ball is thrown up, seeds mean diddly-squat! Your must defeat your opponent to advance, period....Just Freakn Win Baby!!!! Seeding is for odds-makers and has 0 reflection of the players that suit-up......

(01-06-2015 09:49 PM)thagr82008 Wrote:  

(01-05-2015 04:34 PM)tigers1125 Wrote:  

(01-05-2015 02:57 PM)Titans3775 Wrote:  Well at least Pastner has unified the fan base...against himself. He has had 3 different sets of players in his time here. Is it bad that I think that his 1st year Cal leftovers were his best team, but far from the most talented? The guy has had a stacked roster every year he has been here because of his recruiting, but this year with only 2 or 3 players of his normal stackedness the wheels have come off. It doesn't help that we have a 2-guard and a 5 that routinely go 0-fer in the starting lineup.

Last year's team was a mis seed away from being in Sweet 16. Everyone nationally was surprised the Tigers got seeded that low. That is huge in matchups. Last years team was pretty good.

^ That's like an argument with a tree!!! If this is your logic then it's a moot point.....Once the ball is thrown up, seeds mean diddly-squat! Your must defeat your opponent to advance, period....Just Freakn Win Baby!!!! Seeding is for odds-makers and has 0 reflection of the players that suit-up......

Why worry about a seed when you don't have the ground to plant it in?

(01-06-2015 10:11 PM)tigertg Wrote:  

(01-06-2015 09:49 PM)thagr82008 Wrote:  

(01-05-2015 04:34 PM)tigers1125 Wrote:  

(01-05-2015 02:57 PM)Titans3775 Wrote:  Well at least Pastner has unified the fan base...against himself. He has had 3 different sets of players in his time here. Is it bad that I think that his 1st year Cal leftovers were his best team, but far from the most talented? The guy has had a stacked roster every year he has been here because of his recruiting, but this year with only 2 or 3 players of his normal stackedness the wheels have come off. It doesn't help that we have a 2-guard and a 5 that routinely go 0-fer in the starting lineup.

Last year's team was a mis seed away from being in Sweet 16. Everyone nationally was surprised the Tigers got seeded that low. That is huge in matchups. Last years team was pretty good.

^ That's like an argument with a tree!!! If this is your logic then it's a moot point.....Once the ball is thrown up, seeds mean diddly-squat! Your must defeat your opponent to advance, period....Just Freakn Win Baby!!!! Seeding is for odds-makers and has 0 reflection of the players that suit-up......

Why worry about a seed when you don't have the ground to plant it in?

We got the seed we deserved for getting curbstomped in the first round of the conference tourney on our home floor. A 5 seed in conference equates an 8 seed nationally. The team that got screwed was SMU