(10-17-2014 07:42 PM)Almadenmike Wrote:  

(10-17-2014 05:43 PM)ChicagoOwl (BS 07) Wrote:  If the idea of starting a med school is to boost our reputation, then we should be looking at the cost of top med schools, not average ones.

FYI:

UC-San Francisco (USNews #4 in both research & primary care) took in $4.14 billion ($2.2 from its medical center) with expenses of $4.01 billion.

Stanford (University) Hospital & Clinics (USNews #2 in research and #38 in primary care) (have) nearly $4 billion in 2013 operating revenue and $400 million in net income that year (including Lucile Packard Children's Hospital).

Right, that's why the considerations are complicated. If everyone could be guaranteed such a high profit, then everyone would have a med school by now.
It's not unlike the observation that Ohio State and Texas make a lot of money off football.

Hospitals are huge risks... and there are numerous ones in our back yard. Medical schools are far less risky. They're just schools. Many graduates never practice medicine.

OK so it's basically agreed. Either we 'merge' with BCOM on agreeable terms (including some type of limited partnership arrangement on their 'vacant' hospital) or 'we' build our own medical school and affiliate with one or more of the hospitals in the TMC ... or even think out of the box and consider someone like Big Red (aka Galvetraz) down in Galveston if that's possible.

As for a law school, well God forbid we go after someone like the South Texas College of Law (and yes I know about its arrangements with eATMe). The obvious downside is South Texas generates too many politicians and look what a mess having politicians for alumni did for Baylor and Texas Tech during the dying days of the SWC. Alternatively the new Rice Lorenzo de Zavala College of Law could have their own building on or near the main campus. (Hasn't Rice been acquiring property and/or options on property on the south side of the campus?)

06:00 GMT, time for half a Diazepam tab and some much needed sleep. (And yes it's on prescription)

(10-17-2014 11:32 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Hospitals are huge risks... and there are numerous ones in our back yard. Medical schools are far less risky. They're just schools. Many graduates never practice medicine.

An unconventional thought. What if we had a very small med school that only accepted and produced MD/PhD graduates? Something focused and different. Is there anything out there in this niche?

Sort of off-topic...

I went to the UH/Temple game tonight. The halftime was devoted to a music school announcement. UH is striving to become a "Steinway-only" school. They want to replace a couple of hundred pianos. The goal is $6M. Interestingly, they already have a donor for $5M if they can raise the other million. The band played with a music prof on a Steinway with cougar red trim for the show. Fans around me thought it was a bad halftime show, but the Steinway association further solidified that they were a Tier One school.

(10-18-2014 01:50 AM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  

(10-17-2014 11:32 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Hospitals are huge risks... and there are numerous ones in our back yard. Medical schools are far less risky. They're just schools. Many graduates never practice medicine.

An unconventional thought. What if we had a very small med school that only accepted and produced MD/PhD graduates? Something focused and different. Is there anything out there in this niche?

I don't think it's clear what the med school impact is. It's the research dollars it generates, which impact the reputation metrics substantially (disproportionately IMO). If you follow that through, a big mediocre med school probably has more positive impact than a small elite one. That doesn't necessarily make sense, but that's how it works. The difference between USN&WR in this regard and other general measures or rankings is that it is pretty specifically quantified in USN&WR whereas it is more implicit elsewhere. The difference between having a med school and not having one is greater than the difference between having a mediocre medical school and having the best medical school.

I don't want this taken out of context, so I will clarify. I'm not proposing that Rice dilute its product by adding a mediocre med school. What I'm saying is that in the perception world, the impact of adding a med school is greater than any impact of how strong that med school is. Moving from Rice with no med school to Rice with a mediocre med school = huge impact. Moving from Rice with a mediocre med school to Rice with an outstanding med school = smaller impact. Given that what ratings like USN&WR are trying to measure is impact on undergraduate education, that may not be quite so bizarre as it seems conceptually. In any event, I can't see Rice opting to add a mediocre med school just for the ratings, so the point is probably moot.

(10-18-2014 01:50 AM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  

(10-17-2014 11:32 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Hospitals are huge risks... and there are numerous ones in our back yard. Medical schools are far less risky. They're just schools. Many graduates never practice medicine.

An unconventional thought. What if we had a very small med school that only accepted and produced MD/PhD graduates? Something focused and different. Is there anything out there in this niche?

BCM has a MD/PhD program with its graduate school.

(10-18-2014 09:14 AM)dragon2owl Wrote:  

(10-18-2014 01:50 AM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  

(10-17-2014 11:32 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Hospitals are huge risks... and there are numerous ones in our back yard. Medical schools are far less risky. They're just schools. Many graduates never practice medicine.

An unconventional thought. What if we had a very small med school that only accepted and produced MD/PhD graduates? Something focused and different. Is there anything out there in this niche?

BCM has a MD/PhD program with its graduate school.

Yes they do. But it's not exclusively MD/PhD, which was what I was thinking.

(10-17-2014 03:10 PM)ruowls Wrote:  

(10-17-2014 02:44 PM)greyowl72 Wrote:  I'm all for this idea. In the grand scheme of things, 30 million seems paltry .. considering the added prestige, etc.
Which makes me think there's a lot more to it than meets the eye.
If it's only 30 million or so... why haven't we done it years ago? Why even try to buy Baylor Med? Especially since we knew about their considerable debt.
I'm all in for the concept. I just think it's gonna be a lot more than 30 mil.

As best I can tell, the expense lies in the research aspect of the med school. To attract researchers, the school invests in lab space and lab equipment. This can get pretty expensive pretty quickly. Rice already has this covered with the BRC so it doesn't need to invest in this.

The other big expense is with health care delivery, i.e. the hospital. A medical school doesn't need to operate it's own hospital. I believe a big part of BCM's debt came from their attempt to build and run their own hospital. The building is currently just a shell and has sat vacant for years. In other words, don't start one if you don't have one. The reimbursement incentives for medical education through healthcare delivery have been drastically reduced over the last 20 years. A hospital is a business that currently isn't incentivized to teach.

Of course, everyone knows I like to pass on 4th down too despite the evidence on this board that that is a bad thing to do.

The building has actually been in operation for over a year now. The McNair Campus has the Jamail Specialty Care Center, which houses several adult practices, and the Baylor College of Medicine Medical Center, which I believe has 4 or 5 adult practices. Baylor and St. Luke's will also be building a new hospital in the that area which will be co-owend.

(10-18-2014 09:17 AM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  

(10-18-2014 09:14 AM)dragon2owl Wrote:  

(10-18-2014 01:50 AM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  

(10-17-2014 11:32 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Hospitals are huge risks... and there are numerous ones in our back yard. Medical schools are far less risky. They're just schools. Many graduates never practice medicine.

An unconventional thought. What if we had a very small med school that only accepted and produced MD/PhD graduates? Something focused and different. Is there anything out there in this niche?

BCM has a MD/PhD program with its graduate school.

Yes they do. But it's not exclusively MD/PhD, which was what I was thinking.

I think an MD/PhD only program would have some interesting potential. It would necessarily be too small to have a meaningful impact on reputation and rankings. It might be a way to break in and later expand, although I'm not sure exactly how that would work.

It's almost like the old Western Company advert from my undergrad days, "If you don't own an oil well, get one."

(10-18-2014 09:24 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(10-18-2014 09:17 AM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  

(10-18-2014 09:14 AM)dragon2owl Wrote:  

(10-18-2014 01:50 AM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  

(10-17-2014 11:32 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Hospitals are huge risks... and there are numerous ones in our back yard. Medical schools are far less risky. They're just schools. Many graduates never practice medicine.

An unconventional thought. What if we had a very small med school that only accepted and produced MD/PhD graduates? Something focused and different. Is there anything out there in this niche?

BCM has a MD/PhD program with its graduate school.

Yes they do. But it's not exclusively MD/PhD, which was what I was thinking.

I think an MD/PhD only program would have some interesting potential. It would necessarily be too small to have a meaningful impact on reputation and rankings. It might be a way to break in and later expand, although I'm not sure exactly how that would work.

It's almost like the old Western Company advert from my undergrad days, "If you don't own an oil well, get one."

Since research dollars are the big "get" from having a med school (and its boost in the rankings) a MD/PhD school might get us there quicker than a typical med school. And as pointed out in might be a good first step towards a full med school.

(10-18-2014 12:13 PM)Tiki Owl Wrote:  

(10-18-2014 09:24 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(10-18-2014 09:17 AM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  

(10-18-2014 09:14 AM)dragon2owl Wrote:  

(10-18-2014 01:50 AM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  An unconventional thought. What if we had a very small med school that only accepted and produced MD/PhD graduates? Something focused and different. Is there anything out there in this niche?

BCM has a MD/PhD program with its graduate school.

Yes they do. But it's not exclusively MD/PhD, which was what I was thinking.

I think an MD/PhD only program would have some interesting potential. It would necessarily be too small to have a meaningful impact on reputation and rankings. It might be a way to break in and later expand, although I'm not sure exactly how that would work.

It's almost like the old Western Company advert from my undergrad days, "If you don't own an oil well, get one."

Since research dollars are the big "get" from having a med school (and its boost in the rankings) a MD/PhD school might get us there quicker than a typical med school. And as pointed out in might be a good first step towards a full med school.

Why would it be easy/cheap to compete with the Harvards and Stanfords for nationally competitive research funds? Building the facilities and paying the salaries necessary to attract researchers who will win the big NIH, etc. grants ain't going to be cheap.

I bet it's much easier to attract mid-level med students to an education-oriented med school. Of course it's not obvious what we'd be gaining from this scenario.

Just to add a small bit of clarification: Texas is already well overbuilt in medical schools, and osteopathic schools are beginning to proliferate in a major way. However, there is a major shortage of residency positions in Texas, and this problem boils down to political impotence and governmental budgetary problems. Plus, with two schools already in Houston, there is basically zero prospect of a third one. Rice's only real option is Baylor.

However, as far as a niche med school for which there's a very large "market" - - it's what UH is proposing - - primary care only. It's conceivable they could do something along this line on the cheap, and mostly on their own. Minimal research infrastructure; not much in the way of a hospital to run; a share arrangement with basic science years at UT and Baylor(?); a win-win with guaranteed community support due to the fact that it would directly and almost immediately address a huge community need.

If Rice were to get behind a project like this, it would overnight become the #1 most prestigious primary care producing med school in the world. But this doesn't really quite mesh with Rice's culture.

We may be thinking about this differently than the Administration. Obviously there are dozens of moving parts, but certainly a big one must be this...

It takes +/- 500mm to generate an annual endowment of $25mm, which would probably be about the minimum we would devote to such an endeavor...

so the questions are
1) do we have 500mm in 'uncomitted' endowment, which I'm sure the answer is no, though we may have 'some'.
2) Can we generate 500mm in new endowment funds from sources that ADD TO rather than compete with the existing endowment? I don't know the answer for certain but I'd guess no. 'Some', certainly... but not 500mm.
3) Can we generate NEW research or annual funds of $25mm/yr that we can't otherwise get? My guess is no, but we can certainly generate 'some'

and once you answer all of those questions, you can then consider if this is the best use of our significant, but not unlimited resources.

I think that is why buying Baylor made more sense despite the obviously higher price tag... because it is far easier to accurately value an existing 'business' than a hypothetical one... and obviously there are significant execution risks in building a medical school.... though I think this may be the perfect time to do so.

Perhaps they're merely thinking that we can do virtually everything anyway... through partnerships and affiliations... so while it might improve our rankings, that is really about all it would do (relative to the risk)

Since UH is Tier I, yall can join our MED SCHOOL and be done with the Baptist!

(10-19-2014 02:11 AM)Burpelson Wrote:  Since UH is Tier I, yall can join our MED SCHOOL and be done with the Baptist!

My law school (UH) could use an upgrade. A reverse merger with UT-Houston and you have your med school. The UT-Houston Cougars has a nice ring to it and eliminates another duplicative state funded system (UH). This radical redesign of the state's public higher education governance would allow Downtown, Clear Lake and Victoria to thrive under the UT, Texas State, or even the TAMU systems. Equal access to the Permanent University Fund!

UH's claims of "Tier One" are bogus. Good advertising, though. Same goofy school.