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(10-02-2014 10:16 AM)djnva Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 10:04 AM)WEARE Wrote:  According to 247 for the 2014 recruiting class:

http://247sports.com/Season/2014-Footbal...amRankings

ODU had 36 commitments, placed 75th, and had a total score of 144.24

Marshall had 28 commitments, placed 61st, and had a total score of 165.70

With eight less commitments, we were 14 spots higher with 21.46 more points. This was also a year in which we had transfers. We were second in recruiting rankings among the G5. Last year, we were again second among the G5 placing at 57.

Even with the more favorable ranking you suggest, you were seven spots below us. You are recruiting well, but seven spots with an additional eight recruits included in your average is not right there. Of course, I also think our head coach was once a nationally recognized recruiter, so what do I know.

You're getting defensive it seems, and that's not the point.

I am admitting you guys are good recruiters. And I'm saying that the fact that ODU was close to you is good for ODU.

And the team ranking on this page:

http://247sports.com/Season/2014-Footbal...ence=C-USA

has Marshall with 0 4-stars and 14 3-stars with a 79.18 average, and ODU with 1 4-star and 12 3-stars and a 77.94 average.

Yes, we have more recruits, but we had to because we are transitioning.

Again, I'm not trying to drag down Marshall. I'm saying that for a brand new program like us, it's awesome to be close to you guys.

Really, I am not defensive about recruiting rankings. I understand you are transitioning, and I think you are doing it very well. Rankings do not necessarily translate to the best players.

This whole thing started because I simply made a statement that Doc prepares differently than most coaches because of his years as a top recruiter. My intention was to give insight into why he was so well prepared. He does it for every opponent. Since all coaches have differing approaches and strengths, it was only meant to explain his knowledge of your team. It denigrated into being a delusional fanatic.

It is a fact: he was one of the top recruiters in the nation. No, this doesn't make him the best coach ever, but it can give you insight into how he approaches his preparation for games. That is all that was intended--nothing more, nothing less.

(10-02-2014 10:14 AM)ODUCoach Wrote:  While I'm not one to play into the academics argument, it cannot be denied that Marshall will take partial-qualifiers who would not be able to gain admission to ODU.

If you are of a recruiting violation, I would suggest you report it immediately. A partial qualifier cannot play.

The real cause of your angst is that we have a HELP program that is excellent at assisting underprivileged kids with learning disabilities. Contrary to all the rhetoric, Marshall's players have qualified according to NCAA regulations. Those who do not--don't play.

Personally, I think it is commendable to give kids with obstacles a fighting chance at a college education regardless of their ability to play football. There are no rules disallowing ODU from doing the exact same. If you take JUCO kids, you are doing exactly what is being done at Marshall.

(10-02-2014 01:47 PM)WEARE Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 10:14 AM)ODUCoach Wrote:  While I'm not one to play into the academics argument, it cannot be denied that Marshall will take partial-qualifiers who would not be able to gain admission to ODU.

If you are of a recruiting violation, I would suggest you report it immediately. A partial qualifier cannot play.

The real cause of your angst is that we have a HELP program that is excellent at assisting underprivileged kids with learning disabilities. Contrary to all the rhetoric, Marshall's players have qualified according to NCAA regulations. Those who do not--don't play.

Personally, I think it is commendable to give kids with obstacles a fighting chance at a college education regardless of their ability to play football. There are no rules disallowing ODU from doing the exact same. If you take JUCO kids, you are doing exactly what is being done at Marshall.

I'd have to argue that JUCO kids are different in that they are qualifying through a unbiased third party (The JC College itself). Accepting partials at a university upfront can (not saying Doc does this) lead to academic fraud.

If I was a marginal kid and a school that doesn't accept partials was recruiting me and I didn't qualify, would I hold a grudge against them for not helping me out? Or if I was marginal and a college said I will give you a scholarship, you can't play a down but can practice with our team (at least they could in the past not sure about now) and then our staff/administration will decide if you can make it or not. Of course I'd go that route. It seems like it is basically a forced redshirt assuming they can still play 4 years. I'd have to say there is an advantage to taking partial qualifiers.

I'm all for giving kids 2nd chances, but seeing these kids at UNC really bothers me. To think that their starting QB failed out after his first semester and somehow qualified in time for fall practice before his 2nd year? At some point we need to say the world needs ditch diggers too.

(10-02-2014 01:47 PM)WEARE Wrote:  If you are of a recruiting violation, I would suggest you report it immediately. A partial qualifier cannot play.

The real cause of your angst is that we have a HELP program that is excellent at assisting underprivileged kids with learning disabilities. Contrary to all the rhetoric, Marshall's players have qualified according to NCAA regulations. Those who do not--don't play.

Personally, I think it is commendable to give kids with obstacles a fighting chance at a college education regardless of their ability to play football. There are no rules disallowing ODU from doing the exact same. If you take JUCO kids, you are doing exactly what is being done at Marshall.

I never said anything about a violation. I simply stated that Marshall takes partial qualifiers (and yes, they must sit a year before they play), but we do not. Honestly, I don't even have any angst about it. It's just a fact of life. It's perfectly within the rules and I don't knock Doc for giving kids a chance. I'm simply saying that it is an advantage Marshall has that we do not, as our administration simply won't do it. I'm not saying one way is better than the other. I see both sides of the argument.

(10-02-2014 02:13 PM)NCDad Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 01:47 PM)WEARE Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 10:14 AM)ODUCoach Wrote:  While I'm not one to play into the academics argument, it cannot be denied that Marshall will take partial-qualifiers who would not be able to gain admission to ODU.

If you are of a recruiting violation, I would suggest you report it immediately. A partial qualifier cannot play.

The real cause of your angst is that we have a HELP program that is excellent at assisting underprivileged kids with learning disabilities. Contrary to all the rhetoric, Marshall's players have qualified according to NCAA regulations. Those who do not--don't play.

Personally, I think it is commendable to give kids with obstacles a fighting chance at a college education regardless of their ability to play football. There are no rules disallowing ODU from doing the exact same. If you take JUCO kids, you are doing exactly what is being done at Marshall.

I'd have to argue that JUCO kids are different in that they are qualifying through a unbiased third party (The JC College itself). Accepting partials at a university upfront can (not saying Doc does this) lead to academic fraud.

If I was a marginal kid and a school that doesn't accept partials was recruiting me and I didn't qualify, would I hold a grudge against them for not helping me out? Or if I was marginal and a college said I will give you a scholarship, you can't play a down but can practice with our team (at least they could in the past not sure about now) and then our staff/administration will decide if you can make it or not. Of course I'd go that route. It seems like it is basically a forced redshirt assuming they can still play 4 years. I'd have to say there is an advantage to taking partial qualifiers.

I'm all for giving kids 2nd chances, but seeing these kids at UNC really bothers me. To think that their starting QB failed out after his first semester and somehow qualified in time for fall practice before his 2nd year? At some point we need to say the world needs ditch diggers too.

I might agree, but we do take chances that don't pan out every year. Marshall doesn't just allow them to advance without qualifying. If they did, we would have an even more impressive amount of talent.

Huntington is a small community. It is not the same as a big school serving a large area. If there was anything nefarious transpiring, like pressure to pass students from our administration, it would be known. Our professors are very vocal, and our news outlets will listen. For example, my parents (still residing in the area) are neighbors on both sides to Marshall professors. Trust me, they could care less about football or any college team. Keep in mind, we are a small school in a small community. Collusion is not likely to be kept under the radar for long.

I also understand that not every kid is made for college. The world does need ditch diggers too; however, a kid who grew up too poor to get a proper diagnosis for a learning disability or was worried about housing and food instead of his or her high school GPA, may be no less intelligent or successful in college than someone like me who had all the opportunities of a very comfortable middle class lifestyle. Allowing someone the chance to prove where they fall is shrewd. In the end, the community and society will benefit.

(10-02-2014 01:47 PM)WEARE Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 10:14 AM)ODUCoach Wrote:  While I'm not one to play into the academics argument, it cannot be denied that Marshall will take partial-qualifiers who would not be able to gain admission to ODU.

If you are of a recruiting violation, I would suggest you report it immediately. A partial qualifier cannot play.

The real cause of your angst is that we have a HELP program that is excellent at assisting underprivileged kids with learning disabilities. Contrary to all the rhetoric, Marshall's players have qualified according to NCAA regulations. Those who do not--don't play.

Personally, I think it is commendable to give kids with obstacles a fighting chance at a college education regardless of their ability to play football. There are no rules disallowing ODU from doing the exact same. If you take JUCO kids, you are doing exactly what is being done at Marshall.

Not really arguing about whether it is a good story to help these kids or not, but taking JUCOs is completely different than taking partial qualifiers.

(10-02-2014 02:41 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 01:47 PM)WEARE Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 10:14 AM)ODUCoach Wrote:  While I'm not one to play into the academics argument, it cannot be denied that Marshall will take partial-qualifiers who would not be able to gain admission to ODU.

If you are of a recruiting violation, I would suggest you report it immediately. A partial qualifier cannot play.

The real cause of your angst is that we have a HELP program that is excellent at assisting underprivileged kids with learning disabilities. Contrary to all the rhetoric, Marshall's players have qualified according to NCAA regulations. Those who do not--don't play.

Personally, I think it is commendable to give kids with obstacles a fighting chance at a college education regardless of their ability to play football. There are no rules disallowing ODU from doing the exact same. If you take JUCO kids, you are doing exactly what is being done at Marshall.

Not really arguing about whether it is a good story to help these kids or not, but taking JUCOs is completely different than taking partial qualifiers.

Okay....

Again, partial qualifiers can't play. No, they can't practice with the team either. Some kids go to a JC to qualify. Marshall has a program to help them in-house. Big difference in allowing only qualified athletes, as the NCAA requires, to play...I guess??

To end the discussion, Marshall is doing nothing illegal. If it gives you comfort and consolation if you lose, by all means, swear it was the reason. It won't matter, and it won't change the results.

I will not say Marshall fans are as bad as the useless slobs from Richmond, but damn...yall have some terrible trolls. As with any fan base, there have been some nice Marshall insight/banter, but jokers like WEARE needs to take a hike. No one said it was illegal. No one said this will be the reason we will lose this game. I will take plenty of solace in the fact that we have played a total of 61 football games compared to Marshall's 1123. I can stomach a loss and don't need any bs excuses.

We have no business winning this game. If it is even close, shame on Marshall. Have some perspective (and ability to comprehend some posts). No one said it was illegal. Just like we can get students in that Stanford can't, you might be able to get a player in that we can't. Doesn't make a program better or worse, but it does help explain some schools ability to land recruits that don't qualify elsewhere.

(10-02-2014 02:55 PM)WEARE Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 02:41 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 01:47 PM)WEARE Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 10:14 AM)ODUCoach Wrote:  While I'm not one to play into the academics argument, it cannot be denied that Marshall will take partial-qualifiers who would not be able to gain admission to ODU.

If you are of a recruiting violation, I would suggest you report it immediately. A partial qualifier cannot play.

The real cause of your angst is that we have a HELP program that is excellent at assisting underprivileged kids with learning disabilities. Contrary to all the rhetoric, Marshall's players have qualified according to NCAA regulations. Those who do not--don't play.

Personally, I think it is commendable to give kids with obstacles a fighting chance at a college education regardless of their ability to play football. There are no rules disallowing ODU from doing the exact same. If you take JUCO kids, you are doing exactly what is being done at Marshall.

Not really arguing about whether it is a good story to help these kids or not, but taking JUCOs is completely different than taking partial qualifiers.

Okay....

Again, partial qualifiers can't play. No, they can't practice with the team either. Some kids go to a JC to qualify. Marshall has a program to help them in-house. Big difference in allowing only qualified athletes, as the NCAA requires, to play...I guess??

To end the discussion, Marshall is doing nothing illegal. If it gives you comfort and consolation if you lose, by all means, swear it was the reason. It won't matter, and it won't change the results.

Just curious, how many of the other 124 FBS institutions offer this type of '2nd chance' to student athletes that don't meet the full NCAA Clearinghouse eligibility standards?

(10-02-2014 03:08 PM)BigBlue23 Wrote:  I will not say Marshall fans are as bad as the useless slobs from Richmond, but damn...yall have some terrible trolls. As with any fan base, there have been some nice Marshall insight/banter, but jokers like WEARE needs to take a hike. No one said it was illegal. No one said this will be the reason we will lose this game. I will take plenty of solace in the fact that we have played a total of 61 football games compared to Marshall's 1123. I can stomach a loss and don't need any bs excuses.

We have no business winning this game. If it is even close, shame on Marshall. Have some perspective (and ability to comprehend some posts). No one said it was illegal. Just like we can get students in that Stanford can't, you might be able to get a player in that we can't. Doesn't make a program better or worse, but it does help explain some schools ability to land recruits that don't qualify elsewhere.

+1

(10-02-2014 02:55 PM)WEARE Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 02:41 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 01:47 PM)WEARE Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 10:14 AM)ODUCoach Wrote:  While I'm not one to play into the academics argument, it cannot be denied that Marshall will take partial-qualifiers who would not be able to gain admission to ODU.

If you are of a recruiting violation, I would suggest you report it immediately. A partial qualifier cannot play.

The real cause of your angst is that we have a HELP program that is excellent at assisting underprivileged kids with learning disabilities. Contrary to all the rhetoric, Marshall's players have qualified according to NCAA regulations. Those who do not--don't play.

Personally, I think it is commendable to give kids with obstacles a fighting chance at a college education regardless of their ability to play football. There are no rules disallowing ODU from doing the exact same. If you take JUCO kids, you are doing exactly what is being done at Marshall.

Not really arguing about whether it is a good story to help these kids or not, but taking JUCOs is completely different than taking partial qualifiers.

Okay....

Again, partial qualifiers can't play. No, they can't practice with the team either. Some kids go to a JC to qualify. Marshall has a program to help them in-house. Big difference in allowing only qualified athletes, as the NCAA requires, to play...I guess??

To end the discussion, Marshall is doing nothing illegal. If it gives you comfort and consolation if you lose, by all means, swear it was the reason. It won't matter, and it won't change the results.

No one has said Marshall is doing anything illegal. No one has said we would feel better about losing because you guys take kids we can't.

As someone else posted, if we lose, we really are supposed it. I will give Wilder a full FBS recruiting class plus a year or 2 before I start putting expectations on him. As of this point, they are far exceeded my expectations. Beating Rice is insane to me. We were just competing with JMU

Change Marshall to odu and odu to rice and this conversation sounds strangely familiar. OK continue.... :)

(10-02-2014 06:38 PM)Cr8n Wrote:  Change Marshall to odu and odu to rice and this conversation sounds strangely familiar. OK continue.... :)

+1, this is not a winning argument for us.

Good luck on Saturday

This post is not meant to be confrontational, but rather informational.

The difference between Marshall taking props and other schools taking JUCOs is minute. The main difference would be with kids who went the JUCO route for reasons other than grades. A kid that goes to JUCO for grades is more often than not placed at that JUCO by the school recruiting him. The school usually places those kids at JUCOs with which they have a strong relationship. The reason for this is two fold, they know the school will do what is necessary to get those kids qualified and they know the coaches at those schools will pressure the kids to stay with the school that placed them there and work to keep other schools away.

So a kid comes out of HS with bad grades or bad test scores, but is a beast DT that Alabama really wants. They get him to sign then knowing he won't qualify place him at a friendly JUCO. They get to watch him develop for two years and if they still like him, they offer him a spot. If they don't like him, they forget about him and move on.

The alternative for that kid is to look at schools that take non-qualifiers, like Marshall. The kid can commit to Marshall, but they can't accept his commitment. The deal is that he can come to Marshall on his own dime, focus on school, and if he can make grades then he is eligible for a scholarship. During that year he can not participate in any team functions or training and can't have regular interaction with the staff.

There are advantages to both routes. I personally think the non-qualifier route is better:

- it takes the kid away from football for a year and let's him fully focus on academics. I'm more suspicious that a kid can go from a bad student to a 3.0 at a JUCO than I am that a kid can improve that much as a prop. At the JUCO he is still practicing, training, watching film, playing games, etc. As a prop it's all about school and focusing on grades.

- if you go JUCO you are typically only going to have 2 years to play college ball. If you prop you are guaranteed to get three and, if you are on track to graduate, you get your 4th year of eligibility back.

- if you prop instead of JUCO you don't have to go through the transition of changing schools, which could cause an academic setback. You can acclimate to university life and get the freshman distractions out of the way.

To me, the only advantage of going JUCO is if it has always been your goal to play for a certain team, or in a certain conference, that doesn't allow non-qualifiers.

With all that said, Marshall has 7-9 former non-qualifiers that are significant contributors this season. By that, I mean guys that are in the 2 deep. What's interesting is that the guys who come in and prop under Doc are graduating at a higher rate than the qualifiers, and that's significant because we have a very good football APR overall. I really think that is because those guys spend their first year in college focused on school and getting proper instruction on how to have good study habits.

Sorry for the book, just a topic I'm fairly passionate about.

There is no such thing as partial qualifiers and haven't been since the beginning of the 2005 season. Since then you are either qualified or not.

Marshall can take NQers but most of those who are not qualified fall into 1 of 2 categories:

1) A student with a real learning disability that wasn't caught within the school system for 13 years.
2) A kid that was the star of the community and was passed just so he could play football/basketball. And then not prepared at all when its time.

When grades came out the last semester, every last student athlete that signed a LOI with Marshall that was listed as a NQer had a 3.35 or better. With Rodney Allen posting a 4.0.

We have also picked up high rated kids because they just wanted to play for Marshall like Kendall Gant. Then we've had kids fully qualified that couldn't get into their 1st choice like AJ Leggett. Leggett had a 22 on his ACT and a 3.2 GPA (Marshall requires a 21 on the ACT for student athletes). He wanted to go to Miami but Miami requires a 26 on the ACT.

And there is no difference between a JuCo and a NQer, except for 2 or 4 years. NQers can't play, practice (Formal) or train in athletic facilities. A NQer has to either train in the REC center or get a gym membership. NQers don't count against the APR and have to pay their year of school out of pocket. They are also not allowed to have any contact with coaches.

Since Doc has arrived on campus only 2 kids have not made it and those 2 never made it to campus. Every kid that's started out as a NQer that's made it to campus has made the field.

(10-02-2014 07:59 PM)HerdZoned Wrote:  There is no such thing as partial qualifiers and haven't been since the beginning of the 2005 season. Since then you are either qualified or not.

Marshall can take NQers but most of those who are not qualified fall into 1 of 2 categories:

1) A student with a real learning disability that wasn't caught within the school system for 13 years.
2) A kid that was the star of the community and was passed just so he could play football/basketball. And then not prepared at all when its time.

When grades came out the last semester, every last student athlete that signed a LOI with Marshall that was listed as a NQer had a 3.35 or better. With Rodney Allen posting a 4.0.

We have also picked up high rated kids because they just wanted to play for Marshall like Kendall Gant. Then we've had kids fully qualified that couldn't get into their 1st choice like AJ Leggett. Leggett had a 22 on his ACT and a 3.2 GPA (Marshall requires a 21 on the ACT for student athletes). He wanted to go to Miami but Miami requires a 26 on the ACT.

And there is no difference between a JuCo and a NQer, except for 2 or 4 years. NQers can't play, practice (Formal) or train in athletic facilities. A NQer has to either train in the REC center or get a gym membership. NQers don't count against the APR and have to pay their year of school out of pocket. They are also not allowed to have any contact with coaches.

Since Doc has arrived on campus only 2 kids have not made it and those 2 never made it to campus. Every kid that's started out as a NQer that's made it to campus has made the field.

There are partial qualifiers. Like kids that have the gpa for instance but not the test scores or vice versa. They partially qualify. Hence the term. Bigger conferences usually allow taking a certain number of partial qualifiers.
http://sports.findlaw.com/student_athlete/elig_summ/

(10-02-2014 02:55 PM)WEARE Wrote:  To end the discussion, Marshall is doing nothing illegal. If it gives you comfort and consolation if you lose, by all means, swear it was the reason. It won't matter, and it won't change the results.

No one said it was illegal. That's a strawman. They said it's different and it is.

Trust us, we've heard similar things from William & Mary in the past so we get it.

(10-03-2014 07:11 AM)djnva Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 02:55 PM)WEARE Wrote:  To end the discussion, Marshall is doing nothing illegal. If it gives you comfort and consolation if you lose, by all means, swear it was the reason. It won't matter, and it won't change the results.

No one said it was illegal. That's a strawman. They said it's different and it is.

Trust us, we've heard similar things from William & Mary in the past so we get it.

We heard similar things from Rice 2 weeks ago which is what Cr8n just said. We shouldn't be using that as the reason we lose. It sounds like we are making excuses. Marshall is the better team at the moment and should win.

(10-02-2014 10:14 AM)ODUCoach Wrote:  While I'm not one to play into the academics argument, it cannot be denied that Marshall will take partial-qualifiers who would not be able to gain admission to ODU.

This is the post which started the conversation about Marshall taking non-qualifiers. When read in the context of its three or four previous posts it is clear that it was intended to show one reason why Marshalls' last recruiting class was ranked ahead of ODUs, and NOT to offer any possible excuse for what may be a loss to Marshall on Saturday. If Marshall loses to ODU at this point it would be a huge upset as Marshall clearly has superior depth and talent, and they were predicted by many to run the table. I'm not expecting that to happen, but if it does it will hasten ODU's rise. I believe all of the pressure is on MU in this particular game. I would like to add that I am very happy that ODU and Marshall are conferencemates, and that I appreciate the academic second-chance that they give some athletes. Good luck on Saturday. Hoping for a great game and no injuries for either squad.

GO MONARCHS!!!

I have been reading these posts all week and I am sick of hearing how good Marshall is.
Gees, can we agree that we have not played the game yet? Why are we annointing these guys as unbeatable? I understand the stats and what Marshall has done, but the game is not played on paper. Footballs take funny bounces for everyone. Will it take the same kind of effort the boys put into the Rice and NC State games? Absolutely, but you still have to line up and see what happens. I submit that Marshall is no unbeatable.

1 - With all due respect, Marshall is not Alabama, Oklahoma or Florida State
2 - They are not a top 25 team at this point and because of their schedule they may not get there. Voters can be fickle and not logical in their voting.
3 - To date I believe we have played a harder schedule, thus far than Marshall has and fared ok?
4 - Who is to say if we had their schedule we would not be 4-0?
5 - I am sure their coach is very good and has a great pettigree. With all of that experience, knowledge and connections why is he not at a Power 5 school?
6 - Let's see what happens tomorrow and enjoy the game. If they beat us, they beat us and we will shake hands afterward, but can we please at least start the game before we crown unbeatable.
7 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwpTj_Z9v-c (you get the meaning)