(09-23-2014 10:19 PM)Brokeback Flamer Wrote:  

(09-23-2014 10:02 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Popping the sound barrier might have dispersed some of the crowd, but not the hard core that were carrying out the executions. And if they're flying dirty, they're either not doing 1200 or they're gobbling fuel so fast that we'd have have tankers in place along almost every step of the route. And we don't have anywhere to launch those tankers from.

I guess what I don't understand is do people really think our military just has unlimited powers that transcend the laws of physics? There's only so much that can be done, and in this case we were likely to do more harm than good. I'm not of the "do something, even if it is idiotic" school of thought.

I don't see trying to help our people in dire straights as idiotic. These people were calling for the last resort,they knew that without action they were already dead.
Knowing what I know, I find it difficult to believe,that from the first call for help until the end of the conflict, nothing could have been cobbled together. I did not say that only fly overs would solve the problem. But if a flight of 2 dispersed some of the 'less committed' how is that a bad thing? It would buy time until more assets, perfect to not, could have been allocated. I'm just using that as the first option off the top of my head. And by saying it would have dispersed some of the crowd it sounds like a good first, not only, step.
Yes,the distances were great, and probably much greater than they should have been, but doing nothing should not have been an option. Why there were assets so far away is another question that should be answered.

I used to plan these kinds of operations when I was on active duty. The people saying that we should do whatever have some really unrealistic ideas about what actual capabilities are. I tend to think that maybe showing off all these nifty gadgets during Desert Storm got people to thinking that we could do anything. We can't.

Have you seen the map that the navy provided to Judicial Watch in response to a FOIA request? There was no carrier anywhere in the Med. There was no large amphib anywhere in the Med. There was no amphib, period, anywhere in the Med. That deployment of assets is astounding to me. It's almost as if they WANTED something like this to happen. That's a terrible thing to say, I realize. But there simply is no other believable explanation that fits. I hope there is one. I'd like to know what it is.

It's sort of similar to what people think we can do forensically or technologically just because they saw it on CSI. You can't just will forces into place anymore than you can magically 'enhance' an image and up it's resolution exponentially.

(09-23-2014 10:19 PM)Brokeback Flamer Wrote:  I don't see trying to help our people in dire straights as idiotic. These people were calling for the last resort,they knew that without action they were already dead.
Knowing what I know, I find it difficult to believe,that from the first call for help until the end of the conflict, nothing could have been cobbled together.

I've deployed to the Med in amphibs. I've developed evacuation plans for evacuating Americans from Tel Aviv and Beirut. I wasn't involved when we actually did evacuate Beirut, but that evacuation followed our plan. I know something about what is involved here. However difficult it is to believe that nothing could have been cobbled together, I'm telling you very seriously that nothing could have been cobbled together.

But I'm also saying that, rather than excuse the failure to do something, that merely provokes the question of how in the hell did we end up in a position where nothing could have been done? That to me is far more damning that any stand down order.

And we couldn't have responded if a similar event had occurred in Beirut, or Tel Aviv, or Alexandria, or Cairo, or Tripoli, or Tunis. To be that ill prepared to respond borders on criminal negligence IMO.

(09-23-2014 10:33 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  It's sort of similar to what people think we can do forensically or technologically just because they saw it on CSI. You can't just will forces into place anymore than you can magically 'enhance' an image and up it's resolution exponentially.

Exactly.

(09-23-2014 10:33 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(09-23-2014 10:19 PM)Brokeback Flamer Wrote:  I don't see trying to help our people in dire straights as idiotic. These people were calling for the last resort,they knew that without action they were already dead.
Knowing what I know, I find it difficult to believe,that from the first call for help until the end of the conflict, nothing could have been cobbled together.

I've deployed to the Med in amphibs. I've developed evacuation plans for evacuating Americans from Tel Aviv and Beirut. I wasn't involved when we actually did evacuate Beirut, but that evacuation followed our plan. I know something about what is involved here. However difficult it is to believe that nothing could have been cobbled together, I'm telling you very seriously that nothing could have been cobbled together.

But I'm also saying that, rather than excuse the failure to do something, that merely provokes the question of how in the hell did we end up in a position where nothing could have been done? That to me is far more damning that any stand down order.

And we couldn't have responded if a similar event had occurred in Beirut, or Tel Aviv, or Alexandria, or Cairo, or Tripoli, or Tunis. To be that ill prepared to respond borders on criminal negligence IMO.

On this we agree.
I was unaware that there was no carrier in the Med. That is absolutely amazing. And I agree a much bigger issue than Stand Down. You obviously have experience on a different scope and area than 'a friend of mine'.
I'm not doubting you or saying your information is incorrect, but I'm just finding hard to believe there was nothing available. I can't say of ever being in that type of situation. My line of thinking is along the lines of the authors of the new Benghazi book, that I haven't read, do something to buy time to allow more assets to arrive or make extraction possible. Granted this is on a smaller scale and operating on the assumption that help IS coming.

(09-23-2014 10:46 PM)Brokeback Flamer Wrote:  

(09-23-2014 10:33 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(09-23-2014 10:19 PM)Brokeback Flamer Wrote:  I don't see trying to help our people in dire straights as idiotic. These people were calling for the last resort,they knew that without action they were already dead.
Knowing what I know, I find it difficult to believe,that from the first call for help until the end of the conflict, nothing could have been cobbled together.

I've deployed to the Med in amphibs. I've developed evacuation plans for evacuating Americans from Tel Aviv and Beirut. I wasn't involved when we actually did evacuate Beirut, but that evacuation followed our plan. I know something about what is involved here. However difficult it is to believe that nothing could have been cobbled together, I'm telling you very seriously that nothing could have been cobbled together.

But I'm also saying that, rather than excuse the failure to do something, that merely provokes the question of how in the hell did we end up in a position where nothing could have been done? That to me is far more damning that any stand down order.

And we couldn't have responded if a similar event had occurred in Beirut, or Tel Aviv, or Alexandria, or Cairo, or Tripoli, or Tunis. To be that ill prepared to respond borders on criminal negligence IMO.

On this we agree.
I was unaware that there was no carrier in the Med. That is absolutely amazing. And I agree a much bigger issue than Stand Down. You obviously have experience on a different scope and area than 'a friend of mine'.
I'm not doubting you or saying your information is incorrect, but I'm just finding hard to believe there was nothing available. I can't say of ever being in that type of situation. My line of thinking is along the lines of the authors of the new Benghazi book, that I haven't read, do something to buy time to allow more assets to arrive or make extraction possible. Granted this is on a smaller scale and operating on the assumption that help IS coming.

Go here to see a copy of the map that Judical Watch obtained from the navy via a FOIA request. There is nothing there that could respond. The entire Med is amazingly devoid of assets. I don't think there was anything in a position to even buy time, and nothing for it to buy time for.

http://www.judicialwatch.org/wp-content/...nghazi.pdf

There was a destroyer in Souda Bay (300 NM), a destroyer and tanker somewhere in the Greek islands (400-450 NM), two destroyers off Lebanon (850 NM), the Mt. Whitney (of no use in this situation) in Gaeta (600 NM), and a destroyer near Gibraltar (1400 NM). That's it. As far as ground, we have some NATO forces in Italy, but no real way to get them there. That's maybe one destroyer within 24 hours, although the one with the tanker could have topped off and that would have allowed it to run down there at something approaching flank speed.

I've watched 24, I know Jack Bauer would have found a way.

On a similar note related to the industry I'm getting into, don't believe what you see about CPR in TV/Movies. It's not nearly as effective as you'd imagine based on those outlets, and in all legitimacy, the majority of those 'saved' by CPR at most get a few months lingering until another co-morbidity eventually does the job.

(09-23-2014 04:24 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  

(09-23-2014 03:13 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(09-23-2014 01:50 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  Commietom, you live in a fantasy liberal world. The reality is that people like ttom have pegged you as dishonest, a liar and a broker of false information. You are living in a dream world, neo.

No one cares about what you say.

Tell me one false thing I have said about Benghazi. And back it up with some facts proving I'm wrong please.

I've asked you time and time again for a source...for names...for anything. And you continually provide NOTHING!

Who gave the stand down order, who received the stand down order. What are their names?

Waiting...

Or are YOU the fraud living in fantasy land? Sorry old man, but no honest person will say that I'm the one being dishonest here. Not one. I have sourced and provided back up information for every single claim I've made on Benghazi.

You step on your own d!ck with every post. I don't have to do anything, to prove what you are. Mark "OZ" Geist (USMC). You are the water carrier for Obama, you can't help yourself, suck it. Kris "Tanto" Paronto (Army Ranger). You are as dishonest as anyone who has ever posted here. John "Tig" Tiegen (USMC). You are just trolling, go back to the DU where you came from. You know nothing about what being in the military means. B!tch.

It must really suck getting old huh?

And it's really not that hard to admit that you're wrong.

Nobody is defending you here. Nobody. You're just wrong.

Your only somewhat defender is Owl #'s, and he's apparently totally oblivious to all the hearings on this matter as he keeps claiming that only one side has testified or something. What other side is there?

You've got the White House, the military, the CIA on the ground, the contractors helping the CIA on the ground. None of them have said there was any stand down order other than the CIA team leader making the decision to wait a half hour to see if they get some help from some Libya forces before risking the lives of more Americans by charging into an unsecure situation.

There's been like 6 or 7 reports and investigations on the matter. None of them have said there was any stand down order. No matter how hard you try to insist there was one, until you have proof of it, you really need to just shut up and let it go. You're doing nothing but looking like a fool here. But go ahead and ignore my advice and post your idiotic gif and a smilie. It's really all you have left as a comeback. Sorry.