(08-05-2014 09:25 AM)Latilleon Wrote:  

(08-05-2014 09:07 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  Bob Orton:

In 1981, Orton competed in the World Wrestling Federation. Competing as a heel and using the dreaded superplex as his finisher, he challenged Bob Backlund for the WWF Heavyweight Championship, winning by count-out (the title can't change of hands by disqualification or count-out), the first match. They had a lumberjack match a month later but was unsuccessful.

Orton also competed in the main event against WWF Champion Hulk Hogan on the premiere episode of Saturday.
Night's Main Event on NBC broadcast May 11, 1985, which he lost by disqualification due to the interference of Piper.

Orton remained with Piper for the remainder of 1985, feuding with Orndorff and a variety of partners, such as Hogan, André the Giant, and Bruno Sammartino. In early 1986, Orndorff began wearing a cast as a neutralizer and the WWF ordered both men to remove the cast. Also in late 1985 and early 1986, Orton challenged Hogan for the WWF Heavyweight Championship; like his matches four years earlier against Backlund, Orton was not successful.


I'm not arguing he's an all time great, but he surely wasn't a flunky. I have no idea how old you are, but if you are 40+ you would remember Orton being a prominent figure in the WWF for a solid 5-6 years.

So was Koko B. Ware...

Okay?

Koko was a high energy guy who never really even had a run for the IC title. Did do a helluva job on the Piledriver song. I still have that cassette.

(08-05-2014 09:25 AM)Latilleon Wrote:  

(08-05-2014 09:07 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  I'm not arguing he's an all time great, but he surely wasn't a flunky. I have no idea how old you are, but if you are 40+ you would remember Orton being a prominent figure in the WWF for a solid 5-6 years.

So was Koko B. Ware...

Several people, like 1-2-3 Kid and Doink the clown come to mind.

(08-05-2014 11:04 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(08-05-2014 09:07 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  Bob Orton:

In 1981, Orton competed in the World Wrestling Federation. Competing as a heel and using the dreaded superplex as his finisher, he challenged Bob Backlund for the WWF Heavyweight Championship, winning by count-out (the title can't change of hands by disqualification or count-out), the first match. They had a lumberjack match a month later but was unsuccessful.

Orton also competed in the main event against WWF Champion Hulk Hogan on the premiere episode of Saturday.
Night's Main Event on NBC broadcast May 11, 1985, which he lost by disqualification due to the interference of Piper.

Orton remained with Piper for the remainder of 1985, feuding with Orndorff and a variety of partners, such as Hogan, André the Giant, and Bruno Sammartino. In early 1986, Orndorff began wearing a cast as a neutralizer and the WWF ordered both men to remove the cast. Also in late 1985 and early 1986, Orton challenged Hogan for the WWF Heavyweight Championship; like his matches four years earlier against Backlund, Orton was not successful.


I'm not arguing he's an all time great, but he surely wasn't a flunky. I have no idea how old you are, but if you are 40+ you would remember Orton being a prominent figure in the WWF for a solid 5-6 years.

Flunkie's can have HOF runs as well. Good flunkies even get a world title matches. Remember The Genius? Even he got a world title shot on Saturday nights main event. Thats the oldest play in the WWE playbook. If your rival has flunkies, you typically take them on before the final showdown. We still see that angle used today.

Orton was Pipers shadow during the golden era of the 80's WWE explosion.

But Orton was just a mid-carder who was Piper and Adonis' Bodyguards during that era.

Yes, that is still a flunkie.

No one can factually argue otherwise. All you can do is split hairs over it.

Difference between a title shot and a title run. In those days, the story arc would last for months not weeks and because of lack of tv coverage the matches would be run from one coast to the next.So when Orton fought Backlund in 81 it was a multi-month run, as I was with Hogan in the mid 80's. It's not like today's wrestling where belts change every 10 seconds and schmuks are 18 time champs after 5 years in the business.

Again, devil's in the details...BIGGER points:

Name isn't a killer, it is the push that the company gives that makes one over or not.

(08-05-2014 11:19 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(08-05-2014 09:25 AM)Latilleon Wrote:  

(08-05-2014 09:07 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  I'm not arguing he's an all time great, but he surely wasn't a flunky. I have no idea how old you are, but if you are 40+ you would remember Orton being a prominent figure in the WWF for a solid 5-6 years.

So was Koko B. Ware...

Several people, like 1-2-3 Kid and Doink the clown come to mind.

With WORLD TITLE Runs? Pshaw. Cruiserweight Champ perhaps.

Doinks 1st run in the WWF was basically for one story arc with Lawler and the other clowns/midgets. He then would come back a few years later in nostalgia bits. Hardly a 5-6 year run.

(08-03-2014 02:36 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(08-03-2014 12:32 PM)tigernole79 Wrote:  Yes, Orton has talent. I never said that, but he also didn't come out as a character either. He came out stritctly on the family name. You also left The Rock off that list, because while he did come out as a character, it wasn't until they pushed his namesake that he started to get over (yes, I know it was in large part due to his storyline and his own talent, but the point was people getting over using their family name NOT anything else).

I just don't understand what you are trying to argue here. You might as well argue that water is not wet.

The Rock got over when they pushed his namesake? lol Wut? You must have been watching a different WWE than me, because that is the a55 opposite of what happened.

Orton and Rocky were both introduced as their fathers sons and flopped badly during that run. It wasn't until both guys characters were repackaged as "The Legend killer/Viper" and "THE ROCK" that both guys careers began to take off.

That's not a debatable point, its just part of history.

The list of guys trying to live off their fathers name and flopping is a MILE long. Cowboy Bob and Rocky were nothing but regional stars at their peaks.

The Rock and Randy Orton are (WORLDWIDE) two of the biggest wresting superstars OF ALL TIME.

Rocky and Cowboy Bob never held any major singles in the WWE. The Rock and Randy Orton have 19 WWE world heavyweight championships combined.

Who is the biggest worldwide name ever in wrestling? Hulk Hogan? The Rock? Andre the Giant? The Undertaker? Ric Flair? Or someone very current?

(08-05-2014 11:22 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  Difference between a title shot and a title run. In those days, the story acr would last for months not weeks and because of lack of tv coverage the sam matched would be run from one coast to the next.So when Orton fought Backlund in 81 it was a multi-month run, as I was with Hogan in the mid 80's. It's not like today's wrestling where belts change every 10 seconds and schmuks are 18 time champs after 5 years in the business.

Again, devil's in the details...BIGGER points:

Name isn't a killer, it is the push that the company gives that makes one over or not.

I think you are just arguing to argue now.

WWE was just a regional promotion in 1981. One regional program with Bob Backlund in 1981 doesn't change the fact that Orton is known best for his mid 80's run when the WWE expanded and went nation/world wide.

Again, this is just hair splitting stuff.

Orton was Pipers shadow and bodyguard. A classic wrestling flunkie.

A mid card talent who had a long career and was part of a very famous era.

(08-05-2014 11:23 AM)Tiger46 Wrote:  Who is the biggest worldwide name ever in wrestling? Hulk Hogan? The Rock? Andre the Giant? The Undertaker? Ric Flair? Or someone very current?

Pretty debatable point depending on the criteria used.

I'd say Hogan is the biggest name in wresting history. He was a chitty wrestler, but he had the charisma and could cut a promo. he worked the crowd really well also.

Obviously the Rock has became a big mainstream movie star.

Okay, I guess I split hairs over what the definition of "flunkie" is. I don't consider someone that held multiple titles and main evented Wrestlemania to be a flunkie. Both Rocky and Cowboy Bob were known as tag-team specialist. There were many wrestlers that made their names off of that, because during that era it was more of a pushed thing. How often did the Road Warriors ever hold single titles? Or the list goes on and on... Would you consider Arn Anderson to be a mid card flunkie?

Once again, storylines make or break a wrestler. The WWE has been famous for following the crowds wishes. Very few wrestlers that didn't get over got much of a push and the wrestlers that did get the fans reactions usually got solid pushes.

Whenever you have videos pushing wrestlers, you will know if they push their family name or not. Both in the case of Randy Orton and The Rock, their family wrestling heritage is always mentioned. Is it a major part of their character, not really, but it is mentioned as many times as not.

JC Ice started and has wrestled many times as Jamie Dundee. Many people have no clue who Jeff Jarrett's father was, but he still used the family name.

(08-05-2014 12:30 PM)tigernole79 Wrote:  Okay, I guess I split hairs over what the definition of "flunkie" is. I don't consider someone that held multiple titles and main evented Wrestlemania to be a flunkie. Both Rocky and Cowboy Bob were known as tag-team specialist. There were many wrestlers that made their names off of that, because during that era it was more of a pushed thing. How often did the Road Warriors ever hold single titles? Or the list goes on and on... Would you consider Arn Anderson to be a mid card flunkie?

Once again, storylines make or break a wrestler. The WWE has been famous for following the crowds wishes. Very few wrestlers that didn't get over got much of a push and the wrestlers that did get the fans reactions usually got solid pushes.

Whenever you have videos pushing wrestlers, you will know if they push their family name or not. Both in the case of Randy Orton and The Rock, their family wrestling heritage is always mentioned. Is it a major part of their character, not really, but it is mentioned as many times as not.

JC Ice started and has wrestled many times as Jamie Dundee. Many people have no clue who Jeff Jarrett's father was, but he still used the family name.

They booked Jeff Jarrett as Jerry Jarrett's kid and Eddie Marlin's grand kid in Memphis when he was introduced. He didn't leave until he left for WWF were the name "Jerry Jarrett" meant nothing to the fans. Dundee was always recognized as Bill's kid. His breakout angle was him turning heel on his dad.

Brian Christopher Lawler and Kevin Christian Lawler were never promoted as Jerry Lawler's kids, or as brothers. From the things Scott Bowden wrote, Brian Christopher kind of went behind Jerry's back to get into the business. I don't know if Brian was ever fully acknowledged as Lawler's kid on Memphis TV. WWF would always make jokes about it while Jerry Lawler would deny.

Using a last name that isn't iconic won't work for helping for popularity. Unless you're from a well known family (I.e. harts, guerros, Von erichs).

(08-05-2014 12:30 PM)tigernole79 Wrote:  Okay, I guess I split hairs over what the definition of "flunkie" is. I don't consider someone that held multiple titles and main evented Wrestlemania to be a flunkie.

Bob Orton did not Main event a wrestlemainia.

I'm sorry, but it never happened.

Bob Orton never had one single match at any wrestlemainia EVER. Main event or otherwise.

The only thing he ever did at WM was come out as Pipers flunkie bodyguard.

(08-05-2014 12:30 PM)tigernole79 Wrote:  Okay, I guess I split hairs over what the definition of "flunkie" is. I don't consider someone that held multiple titles and main evented Wrestlemania to be a flunkie. Both Rocky and Cowboy Bob were known as tag-team specialist. There were many wrestlers that made their names off of that, because during that era it was more of a pushed thing. How often did the Road Warriors ever hold single titles? Or the list goes on and on... Would you consider Arn Anderson to be a mid card flunkie?

Once again, storylines make or break a wrestler. The WWE has been famous for following the crowds wishes. Very few wrestlers that didn't get over got much of a push and the wrestlers that did get the fans reactions usually got solid pushes.

Whenever you have videos pushing wrestlers, you will know if they push their family name or not. Both in the case of Randy Orton and The Rock, their family wrestling heritage is always mentioned. Is it a major part of their character, not really, but it is mentioned as many times as not.

JC Ice started and has wrestled many times as Jamie Dundee. Many people have no clue who Jeff Jarrett's father was, but he still used the family name.

There's a huge difference between getting over in front of a few thousand people in Memphis (Jamie Dundee and Jeff Jarrett), and getting over on a national level such as WWE.

And you said it yourself, nobody outside of the Mid South region has a clue who Jerry Jarrett is, so Jeff was able to get away with it. As far as a wrestling fan in New York is concerned, Jeff Jarrett's dad was never in the business.

This is actually a good debate. But really, historical facts point to the conclusion that, 9 times out of 10, second generation wrestlers whose fathers achieved a huge level of success on a national level have a nearly impossible path to becoming a superstar themselves, unless they create a completely brand new character.

(08-05-2014 12:58 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(08-05-2014 12:30 PM)tigernole79 Wrote:  Okay, I guess I split hairs over what the definition of "flunkie" is. I don't consider someone that held multiple titles and main evented Wrestlemania to be a flunkie.

Bob Orton did not Main event a wrestlemainia.

I'm sorry, but it never happened.

Bob Orton never had one single match at any wrestlemainia EVER. Main event or otherwise.

The only thing he ever did at WM was come out as Pipers flunkie bodyguard.

Bob Orton primarily worked in the NWA and AWA. So he would not have a big history in the WWE. People must remember that the WWE is not the only wrestling organization especially 30 years ago.

(08-05-2014 04:49 PM)ncrdbl1 Wrote:  

(08-05-2014 12:58 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(08-05-2014 12:30 PM)tigernole79 Wrote:  Okay, I guess I split hairs over what the definition of "flunkie" is. I don't consider someone that held multiple titles and main evented Wrestlemania to be a flunkie.

Bob Orton did not Main event a wrestlemainia.

I'm sorry, but it never happened.

Bob Orton never had one single match at any wrestlemainia EVER. Main event or otherwise.

The only thing he ever did at WM was come out as Pipers flunkie bodyguard.

Bob Orton primarily worked in the NWA and AWA. So he would not have a big history in the WWE. People must remember that the WWE is not the only wrestling organization especially 30 years ago.

Actually, before 1984, there was no true national or world wide promotion. They were all still under the old territories.

The AWA back then was basically just the upper midwest states and NWA was mostly just the east coast states, broke up into multiple territories and promotions.

The discussion was what , if anything , Bob Orton is remembered for today by the average fan. His AWA & NWA days are almost unknown by todays fans.

(08-05-2014 06:46 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(08-05-2014 04:49 PM)ncrdbl1 Wrote:  

(08-05-2014 12:58 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(08-05-2014 12:30 PM)tigernole79 Wrote:  Okay, I guess I split hairs over what the definition of "flunkie" is. I don't consider someone that held multiple titles and main evented Wrestlemania to be a flunkie.

Bob Orton did not Main event a wrestlemainia.

I'm sorry, but it never happened.

Bob Orton never had one single match at any wrestlemainia EVER. Main event or otherwise.

The only thing he ever did at WM was come out as Pipers flunkie bodyguard.

Bob Orton primarily worked in the NWA and AWA. So he would not have a big history in the WWE. People must remember that the WWE is not the only wrestling organization especially 30 years ago.

Actually, before 1984, there was no true national or world wide promotion. They were all still under the old territories.

The AWA back then was basically just the upper midwest states and NWA was mostly just the east coast states, broke up into multiple territories and promotions.

The discussion was what , if anything , Bob Orton is remembered for today by the average fan. His AWA, NWA days are almost unknown to todays fans.

AWA and NWA were not promotions they were sanctioning bodies. True there were dozens of regional promotions. Some were indie promotions and others had ties to national sanctioning bodies.

AWA worked with promotions in Minneapolis, Milwaukee, Chicago, Omaha, Winnipeg, Denver, Salt Lake City, Las Vegas, San Francisco, Phoenix Houston San Antonio and here in Memphis after breaking away from the NWA in 1968.

The WWWF was also once a part of the NWA and broke away in 1963.

From 1948 to the 1960s the NWA was the National Wrestling sanctioning body. Disputes with promoters in the midwest and northeast over title reigns caused them to break away and form their own organizations. Today the NWA is still a national sanctioning body among the remaining regional promotions. There is in the neighborhood of 30 regional promotions today which are sanctioned by the NWA.

(08-05-2014 08:53 PM)ncrdbl1 Wrote:  AWA and NWA were not promotions they were sanctioning bodies. True there were dozens of regional promotions. Some were indie promotions and others had ties to national sanctioning bodies.

AWA worked with promotions in Minneapolis, Milwaukee, Chicago, Omaha, Winnipeg, Denver, Salt Lake City, Las Vegas, San Francisco, Phoenix Houston San Antonio and here in Memphis after breaking away from the NWA in 1968.

The WWWF was also once a part of the NWA and broke away in 1963.

From 1948 to the 1960s the NWA was the National Wrestling sanctioning body. Disputes with promoters in the midwest and northeast over title reigns caused them to break away and form their own organizations. Today the NWA is still a national sanctioning body among the remaining regional promotions. There is in the neighborhood of 30 regional promotions today which are sanctioned by the NWA.

Since this is turning into a Wikipedia page on pro wrestling, I'll continue the theme.

The way it worked in those days was each territory had its champion. If you were involved in a collective like the NWA, the NWA champion would tour all the different promotions and fight their local champions.

This was typically a boom for each individual territory and gave the champion himself more of a national feel, even though there was no true single national promotion.

Hardcore fans in those days kept up with the different territories thru the wrestling magazines like PWI and The Wrestler. They would cover all the different promotions and have rankings for each territory or promotion.

Its subjective, but I always thought that the NWA/Crockett promotions had a big majority of the talent in the 80's. WWe, even at its 1980's peak had the biggest name in Hulk Hogan and a colorful cast of characters like Andre and Piper, but the NWA was loaded with most of the big time talent.

Ric Flair, The 4 horsemen, Dusty Rhodes, The Road Warriors, Midnight Express, R&R Express, Nikita Koloff, Lex Lugar, Ronnie and Jim Garvin, Magnum TA, Barry Windham, Tully Blanchard.

Crockett was LOADED in the mid 80's.

(08-05-2014 01:39 PM)HornLakeTiger Wrote:  

(08-05-2014 12:30 PM)tigernole79 Wrote:  Okay, I guess I split hairs over what the definition of "flunkie" is. I don't consider someone that held multiple titles and main evented Wrestlemania to be a flunkie. Both Rocky and Cowboy Bob were known as tag-team specialist. There were many wrestlers that made their names off of that, because during that era it was more of a pushed thing. How often did the Road Warriors ever hold single titles? Or the list goes on and on... Would you consider Arn Anderson to be a mid card flunkie?

Once again, storylines make or break a wrestler. The WWE has been famous for following the crowds wishes. Very few wrestlers that didn't get over got much of a push and the wrestlers that did get the fans reactions usually got solid pushes.

Whenever you have videos pushing wrestlers, you will know if they push their family name or not. Both in the case of Randy Orton and The Rock, their family wrestling heritage is always mentioned. Is it a major part of their character, not really, but it is mentioned as many times as not.

JC Ice started and has wrestled many times as Jamie Dundee. Many people have no clue who Jeff Jarrett's father was, but he still used the family name.

There's a huge difference between getting over in front of a few thousand people in Memphis (Jamie Dundee and Jeff Jarrett), and getting over on a national level such as WWE.

And you said it yourself, nobody outside of the Mid South region has a clue who Jerry Jarrett is, so Jeff was able to get away with it. As far as a wrestling fan in New York is concerned, Jeff Jarrett's dad was never in the business.

This is actually a good debate. But really, historical facts point to the conclusion that, 9 times out of 10, second generation wrestlers whose fathers achieved a huge level of success on a national level have a nearly impossible path to becoming a superstar themselves, unless they create a completely brand new character.

I will mostly agree with your post, other than the fact that getting over in Memphis in the 70s and 80s was NOT getting over in front of a few thousand fans. They were one of the three larger regional promotions and EVERYBODY that was anybody in wrestling made their way through Memphis at one point in time.

Anything that happens in the WWE happened in Memphis first for the most part.

(08-05-2014 12:58 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(08-05-2014 12:30 PM)tigernole79 Wrote:  Okay, I guess I split hairs over what the definition of "flunkie" is. I don't consider someone that held multiple titles and main evented Wrestlemania to be a flunkie.

Bob Orton did not Main event a wrestlemainia.

I'm sorry, but it never happened.

Bob Orton never had one single match at any wrestlemainia EVER. Main event or otherwise.

The only thing he ever did at WM was come out as Pipers flunkie bodyguard.

Wrestlmania 3. While it was the opening match, EVER was wrong.

I was wrong as he was the bodyguard, which I was thinking it was Orndorff. I admit I was wrong.

(08-06-2014 08:31 AM)tigernole79 Wrote:  

(08-05-2014 12:58 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(08-05-2014 12:30 PM)tigernole79 Wrote:  Okay, I guess I split hairs over what the definition of "flunkie" is. I don't consider someone that held multiple titles and main evented Wrestlemania to be a flunkie.

Bob Orton did not Main event a wrestlemainia.

I'm sorry, but it never happened.

Bob Orton never had one single match at any wrestlemainia EVER. Main event or otherwise.

The only thing he ever did at WM was come out as Pipers flunkie bodyguard.

Wrestlmania 3. While it was the opening match, EVER was wrong.

I was wrong as he was the bodyguard, which I was thinking it was Orndorff. I admit I was wrong.

This is true