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Evidence of Israel targeting civilians.
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I45owl Offline
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Post: #241
RE: Evidence of Israel targeting civilians.
(07-21-2014 05:41 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  The other part is that Hamas is essentially a front for Iran, and Arabs fear Iran more than they hate Israel. For that matter, most of the Arabs probably hate the Palestinians as much as they hate Israel.

Historically, Hamas was not strictly an Iranian client. I can't recall any mention of Iranian involvement with Hamas until the mid-2000s, after Saddam and Qadafi quit contributing so much to them, for one reason or another. I think they've always had diverse funding, including from here in Texas, so their Iranian client status is fairly recent, IMHO. And, much of the problem with Israeli soldiers getting killed is due to arms (anti-tank weapons) imported from Egypt during the Morsi regime. Thus far, there is a considerable difference between 2009 and 2014, with Morsi (Muslim Brotherhood) probably making the difference (and this is also why Egypt wants to see Israel and Hamas beat the crap out of each other, in spite of their peacemaker role).

(07-21-2014 06:21 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  The problem with Palestine and Israel is not so much that they are neighbors but that there's not enough there to support both of them, barely enough to support either one. Israel becomes indefensible before Palestine has enough land--or water--to make a go of it economically. With the water infrastructure I'm outlining above, Palestine could work and Israel could work.

One area where I disagree with you is the extent to which dogma plays a role in the conflict. The problem here has never been that Palestinians were displaced from their homes. It's that non-Muslims are in control of the government in a once-Muslim ruled land. That's why I don't think there is a solution to this beyond creating states where people are comfortable enough that they don't seek out war. I think Hamas believes the same way, which is why the culture of death would rather keep Palestinians miserable, dependent on Hamas charity, and at constantly at death's door.

To wit, your suggestion itself makes a lot of sense in this context. Getting the Palestians to move from Gaza to Sinai is a problem bigger than fixing the landscape, IMHO. Maybe we can get the Canadians to do that part of the heavy lifting.
07-22-2014 01:25 PM
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QuestionSocratic Offline
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Post: #242
RE: Evidence of Israel targeting civilians.
(07-22-2014 03:45 AM)chargeradio Wrote:  
(07-16-2014 07:05 AM)Paul M Wrote:  A different bomb would be ok?
Are nuclear weapons OK? Perhaps a couple of real small ones in the range of a few kilotons would be enough to mortally wound Hamas without irradiating the entire region.

Probably why Israel has not ratified the Ottawa Treaty, the Anti-Personnel Mine Ban Convention.
07-22-2014 01:31 PM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #243
RE: Evidence of Israel targeting civilians.
Civilian death numbers prove the allegation.
07-22-2014 01:33 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #244
RE: Evidence of Israel targeting civilians.
(07-22-2014 01:33 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Civilian death numbers prove the allegation.

No, they don't.
07-22-2014 02:01 PM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #245
RE: Evidence of Israel targeting civilians.
(07-22-2014 02:01 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(07-22-2014 01:33 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Civilian death numbers prove the allegation.

No, they don't.

So Israelis are just really poor shots?
07-22-2014 02:03 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #246
RE: Evidence of Israel targeting civilians.
(07-22-2014 02:03 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(07-22-2014 02:01 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(07-22-2014 01:33 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Civilian death numbers prove the allegation.

No, they don't.

So Israelis are just really poor shots?

No.
07-22-2014 02:04 PM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #247
RE: Evidence of Israel targeting civilians.
(07-22-2014 02:04 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(07-22-2014 02:03 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(07-22-2014 02:01 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(07-22-2014 01:33 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Civilian death numbers prove the allegation.

No, they don't.

So Israelis are just really poor shots?

No.

So they hit exactly who they intend to, civilians.

Thanks for clearing it up for everybody.
07-22-2014 02:06 PM
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Crebman Offline
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Post: #248
RE: Evidence of Israel targeting civilians.
(07-22-2014 02:06 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(07-22-2014 02:04 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(07-22-2014 02:03 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(07-22-2014 02:01 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(07-22-2014 01:33 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Civilian death numbers prove the allegation.

No, they don't.

So Israelis are just really poor shots?

No.

So they hit exactly who they intend to, civilians.

Thanks for clearing it up for everybody.

How about Hamas fighters hiding themselves and their weapons amongst the civilian population, so when the Israelis go after them - there are civilian casualties as part of the collateral damage.

What would you expect the Israelis to do? Stand down and just allow Hamas to lob missiles into Israel - which they are doing now? Maybe if the Palestinians forced Hamas to move their weapons and fighters away from civilians there wouldn't be as many civilians hurt.
07-22-2014 02:13 PM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #249
RE: Evidence of Israel targeting civilians.
(07-22-2014 02:13 PM)Crebman Wrote:  
(07-22-2014 02:06 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(07-22-2014 02:04 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(07-22-2014 02:03 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(07-22-2014 02:01 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  No, they don't.

So Israelis are just really poor shots?

No.

So they hit exactly who they intend to, civilians.

Thanks for clearing it up for everybody.

How about Hamas fighters hiding themselves and their weapons amongst the civilian population, so when the Israelis go after them - there are civilian casualties as part of the collateral damage.

What would you expect the Israelis to do? Stand down and just allow Hamas to lob missiles into Israel - which they are doing now? Maybe if the Palestinians forced Hamas to move their weapons and fighters away from civilians there wouldn't be as many civilians hurt.

I don't disagree but I expect and demand more from a supposedly civilized democracy.
07-22-2014 02:14 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #250
RE: Evidence of Israel targeting civilians.
(07-22-2014 02:06 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(07-22-2014 02:04 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(07-22-2014 02:03 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(07-22-2014 02:01 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(07-22-2014 01:33 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Civilian death numbers prove the allegation.
No, they don't.
So Israelis are just really poor shots?
No.
So they hit exactly who they intend to, civilians.

No. Quit playing dumb***.
07-22-2014 02:17 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #251
RE: Evidence of Israel targeting civilians.
(07-22-2014 02:14 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(07-22-2014 02:13 PM)Crebman Wrote:  
(07-22-2014 02:06 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(07-22-2014 02:04 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(07-22-2014 02:03 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  So Israelis are just really poor shots?
No.
So they hit exactly who they intend to, civilians.
Thanks for clearing it up for everybody.
How about Hamas fighters hiding themselves and their weapons amongst the civilian population, so when the Israelis go after them - there are civilian casualties as part of the collateral damage.
What would you expect the Israelis to do? Stand down and just allow Hamas to lob missiles into Israel - which they are doing now? Maybe if the Palestinians forced Hamas to move their weapons and fighters away from civilians there wouldn't be as many civilians hurt.
I don't disagree but I expect and demand more from a supposedly civilized democracy.

Why?
07-22-2014 02:18 PM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #252
RE: Evidence of Israel targeting civilians.
(07-22-2014 02:17 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(07-22-2014 02:06 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(07-22-2014 02:04 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(07-22-2014 02:03 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(07-22-2014 02:01 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  No, they don't.
So Israelis are just really poor shots?
No.
So they hit exactly who they intend to, civilians.

No. Quit playing dumb***.

03-lmfao

Don't get your little feelings hurt.
07-22-2014 02:19 PM
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JMUDunk Offline
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Post: #253
RE: Evidence of Israel targeting civilians.
(07-22-2014 01:33 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Civilian death numbers prove the allegation.

Hardly.

Would it make you feel better if the Israelis let a couple hundred of the thousands of missiles Hamas is lobbing their way through, so as to even the "score" a bit?

Is it the Israels fault they have better technology and better weapon and weapon defense systems? Should more Jews die, just to make it fair?
(This post was last modified: 07-22-2014 02:23 PM by JMUDunk.)
07-22-2014 02:21 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #254
RE: Evidence of Israel targeting civilians.
(07-22-2014 02:19 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(07-22-2014 02:17 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(07-22-2014 02:06 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(07-22-2014 02:04 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(07-22-2014 02:03 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  So Israelis are just really poor shots?
No.
So they hit exactly who they intend to, civilians.
No. Quit playing dumb***.
03-lmfao
Don't get your little feelings hurt.

Who is getting feelings hurt? Not me.
07-22-2014 02:21 PM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #255
RE: Evidence of Israel targeting civilians.
(07-22-2014 02:21 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  
(07-22-2014 01:33 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Civilian death numbers prove the allegation.

Hardly.

Would it make you feel better if the Israelis let a couple hundred of the thousands of missile Hamas is lobbing their way through, so as to even the "score" a bit?

Is it the Israels fault they have better technology and better weapon and weapon defense systems? Should more Jews die, just to make it fair?

Not at all.

The more civilians that die the more rockets end up raining down on Israel.

It's a cycle of violence and one I'd hope a civilized democracy would find a way to break. The fact they are only interested in intensifying the violence says there is more at play here.
07-22-2014 02:23 PM
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Brokeback Flamer Offline
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Post: #256
RE: Evidence of Israel targeting civilians.
(07-22-2014 02:23 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(07-22-2014 02:21 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  
(07-22-2014 01:33 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Civilian death numbers prove the allegation.

Hardly.

Would it make you feel better if the Israelis let a couple hundred of the thousands of missile Hamas is lobbing their way through, so as to even the "score" a bit?

Is it the Israels fault they have better technology and better weapon and weapon defense systems? Should more Jews die, just to make it fair?

Not at all.

The more civilians that die the more rockets end up raining down on Israel.

It's a cycle of violence and one I'd hope a civilized democracy would find a way to break. The fact they are only interested in intensifying the violence says there is more at play here.

Do you believe that Hamas are using civilians as human shields?
07-22-2014 02:40 PM
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JMUDunk Offline
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Post: #257
RE: Evidence of Israel targeting civilians.
(07-22-2014 02:23 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(07-22-2014 02:21 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  
(07-22-2014 01:33 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Civilian death numbers prove the allegation.

Hardly.

Would it make you feel better if the Israelis let a couple hundred of the thousands of missile Hamas is lobbing their way through, so as to even the "score" a bit?

Is it the Israels fault they have better technology and better weapon and weapon defense systems? Should more Jews die, just to make it fair?

Not at all.

The more civilians that die the more rockets end up raining down on Israel.

It's a cycle of violence and one I'd hope a civilized democracy would find a way to break. The fact they are only interested in intensifying the violence says there is more at play here.

So unilateral disarmament even when Hamas wouldn't or couldn't adhere to TWO separate cease fires, proposed by both Egypt AND Israel. One so Israel could truck in medical supplies and food and water stocks.

Right. Got it. Boy are you on the wrong side of who's wrong in this one.

Who's to blame here?
07-22-2014 03:24 PM
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I45owl Offline
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Post: #258
RE: Evidence of Israel targeting civilians.
(07-22-2014 02:23 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  The more civilians that die the more rockets end up raining down on Israel.

I think that you will find that the inverse is true by the end of this conflict. One unjust murder begat hundreds of missiles launched into Israel. Hundreds of deaths (both justified as combatants and incidental civilian deaths as a consequence of just and necessary attempts to destroy Hamas's military capabilities) will be the only thing - including cease fires agreed to by Israel but violated by Hamas - will drastically reduce the missile attacks if not end them altogether.
07-22-2014 03:47 PM
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I45owl Offline
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Post: #259
RE: Evidence of Israel targeting civilians.
(07-22-2014 12:11 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  And what is international law, anyway? There is no formal code of international laws that all must obey. There are things that are customary, traditional, and expected. And there are treaties which obligate signatory nations. Generally, when your enemy doesn't play by the rules, you get a bye.

None of this has slowed down "international criminal courts".
07-22-2014 04:49 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #260
RE: Evidence of Israel targeting civilians.
There has been a lot of talk about violations of international law on here. International law is a bit of a nebulous concept because there is not some code of laws that must be followed. It is based on custom, tradition, treaties (which govern the ratifying parties), and the rulings of international organizations. There is no black letter international law.

The most relevant regarding the use of human shields would be the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949, which is essentially a statement of what has been custom and tradition (international "common law," for want of a better term).

Article 28 of the Fourth Geneva Convention provides: "The presence of a protected person (i.e., a civilian) may not be used to render certain... areas immune from military operations." Article 51 of the 1977 amendment to the 1949 Geneva Convention elaborated, "The presence... of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain... areas immune from military operations, in particular in attempts to shield military objects from attacks or to shield, favor or impede military operations." Keeping in mind that the presumption is dealing with prisoners in wartime, the principle stated in Article 83 is also relevant, "The Detaining Power shall not set up places of internment in areas particularly exposed to the dangers of war."

Section 51(7) of Protocol I of 1977 states, "The presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular in attempts to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield, favour or impede military operations. The Parties to the conflict shall not direct the movement of the civilian population or individual civilians in order to attempt to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield military operations."

Article 58 of Protocol I provides, "Precautions against the effects of attacks. The Parties to the conflict shall, to the maximum extent feasible: (a) without prejudice to Article 49 of the Fourth Convention, endeavour to remove the civilian population, individual civilians and civilian objects under their control from the vicinity of military objectives; (b) avoid locating military objectives within or near densely populated areas; © take the other necessary precautions to protect the civilian population, individual civilians and civilian objects under their control against the dangers resulting from military operations."

The actions of Hamas and the Palestinian authorities would clearly appear to violate several of the above provisions.

What are the attacker's duties when the defender is using human shields?

Sections 4 and 5 of Article 51 of Protocol I provide, "4. Indiscriminate attacks are prohibited. Indiscriminate attacks are: (a) those which are not directed at a specific military objective; (b) those which employ a method or means of combat which cannot be directed at a specific military objective; or © those which employ a method or means of combat the effects of which cannot be limited as required by this Protocol; and consequently, in each such case, are of a nature to strike military objectives and civilians or civilian objects without distinction.
"5. Among others, the following types of attacks are to be considered as indiscriminate: (a) an attack by bombardment by any methods or means which treats as a single military objective a number of clearly separated and distinct military objectives located in a city, town, village or other area containing a similar concentration of civilians or civilian objects; and (b) an attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated."

The proportionality provision of section 5 would seem to apply here. It is a bit troublesome to apply because the factual issues are difficult to prove. The International Committee of the Red Cross’ model manual provides what may be a more useful standard, "The attacking commander is required to do his best to protect [civilians used to shield] but he is entitled to take the defending commander’s actions into account when considering the rule of proportionality." But even that is hardly clear cut.

I would tend to give Israel the benefit of the doubt here, although others may differ.

What is really needed is an agreed standard. The customs and traditions upon which the Geneva Conventions were based have developed over centuries, driven primarily by European nobles playing by the rules. Those rules don't really apply here. This is a very different kind of warfare, fought by people whose customs and traditions are not those of western Europe. The only way to stop the practice is to make human shielded targets fair game, which greatly limits the effectiveness of human shields. That's harsh, but in the long run less harsh than any other approach. Even if legal, the party which attacks a human shielded target will have to endure the TV images of dead civilians, and question whether the price paid in the international court of public opinion is worth the gain.

There is no good answer. I'm not a fan of the proportionality standard in international law generally, because history has proved repeatedly that proportionality breeds quagmire, and almost certainly more death and destruction in the long run than simply using overwhelming force and getting it over.
07-22-2014 06:20 PM
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