(06-15-2014 01:07 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  

(06-14-2014 10:45 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  I think overall, Notre Dame has underachieved in the last quarter century, the year they overachieved by advancing to the national title game not withstanding.

In the last 20 years ND is 3-14 in bowls, 0-4 in BCS Bowls.

ND's BCS Bowl record:
L 41-9 v Oregon, 2001
L 34-20 v Ohio State, 2006
L 41-14 v LSU, 2007
L 42-13 v Alabama, 2013

3 of ND's 4 BCS Bowl losses make the list of top 10 biggest blowouts in BCS Bowl history.

There is no team that is consistently more over rated than Notre Dame.

Very well put.

The NC shot season didn't herald a major change in direction.

(06-14-2014 06:12 PM)ken d Wrote:  If I have my numbers correct, the top ten programs over the past 4 seasons were:

Oregon 47-6
Alabama 46-7
Stanford 46-8
LSU 44-9
Florida St 45-10
Oklahoma 43-10
Ohio State 42-10
South Carolina 42-11
Wisconsin 39-15
Nebraska 38-16

The first 8 were relatively easy to identify. I may well have missed a team or two that won more games than Wisconsin and Nebraska. If anyone has better info, please correct.

Several of these teams have been mentioned as underachievers. Which shows how much expectations play into our perceptions.

I'm surprised nobody noticed that I left Boise State of my list. They were fourth in winning percentage at 43-8 (.843).

(06-13-2014 06:47 PM)1845 Bear Wrote:  

(06-13-2014 06:43 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(06-13-2014 04:29 PM)ChrisLords Wrote:  Reading this board, has taught me a few underachieving schools that I wouldn't have thought about.

Cal - as previously mentioned
UVA - as previously mentioned
Texas - as previously mentioned
UNC - as previously mentioned
UMD - Their only in-state competition is Navy in a state that produces a good amount of FBS prospects every year and they're the most media covered in D.C. They should be decent to very good every year.

Ones I don't agree with :
Clemson - as previously mentioned by Kaplony
USC-E - This has been their best 4 year period in over 125 years of football, how is that underachieving
LSU - Played for a NC in the last 4 years
Penn State - I believe is way over achieving considering the sanctions against the program.
USC - They were on probation too.
Ole Miss - I wouldn't expect them to be good although they've had some good recruiting classes.
Arizona - I wouldn't expect them to be good either.
WVU - They do very well for their in state recruiting limitations.
Michigan - Won 11 games 3 years ago
Florida - won 11 games 2 years ago
Nebraska - Have won 10 9 10 9 games the last 4 years. That's not underachieving for any one.

But in the other three seasons, they were only a combined 19-19. For a team that is a perennial top ten in both recruiting and in NFL draftees (only five schools put more in the NFL) it's hard to say they didn't under achieve.

Georgia Southern beat them. One of the biggest programs in the SEC should not be losing to the So Con.

SEC powers shouldn't even be scheduling Southern Conference teams. Vandy maybe, not Alabama, Florida and Georgia.

(06-13-2014 03:49 PM)goofus Wrote:  4 years is such a short period of time. A more interesting discussion would be all time underachievers

All these have had some recent success, but have a long history of underachieving,

Kansas state, Baylor, Northwestern,
Vanderbilt, Duke, Wake Forest, Rutgers, Iowa State, Indiana

Then there are programs you just expect to be better given their location and resources.

Illinois, North Carolina, Cal

Fair enough. I was focused on such a brief period because I was struck by the disparity between the number of players drafted and the mediocre records of several teams during that same period. Notably, UNC and Florida ranked T6 in draftees (20), and only won 30 and 29 games, respectively. Also, Miami was right behind them with 19 players drafted (T8) and also won only 29.

Frankly, it's too much work to go back ten years of NFL drafts. But I did try to identify the teams with the best winning% during that time. That list looks a little different.

1. Boise State 112-18 (.862)
2. Ohio State 104-24 (.813)
3. LSU 104-27 (.794)
4. Oklahoma 105-28 (.790)
5. USC 101-27 (.789)
6. Alabama 101-30 (.771)
7. Texas 99-30 (.767)
8. Oregon 98-30 (.766)
9. Virginia Tech 99-35 (.739)
10. TCU 93-33 (.738)

Stanford, which is third in the four year ranking, doesn't even crack the top 30 over ten years. And it's not a coincidence that several of these teams faced heavy NCAA sanctions as a result of those wins. My numbers reflect what actually happened on the field. The official records are different, with a lot of those wins eventually vacated.

Several schools you might expect to rank higher are bunched together between #25 and #29). These were:

Notre Dame 76-48 (.613)
Michigan 77-49 (.611)
Michigan St 78-50 (.609)
Iowa 76-50 (.603)
Miami 75-50 (.600)

Two other schools who will play at the G5 level next year made the top 30: #19 BYU at 87-40 (.685) and #20 Cincinnati at 85-41 (.675).

There were six SEC teams in the top 30, but they were all in the top 15 as well. Florida, Georgia, South Carolina and Auburn all won more than 70% of their games.

The B1G had the most teams in the top 30 (8), followed by the SEC (6), ACC (5), Big 12 (4) and PAC (3).

Six schools on the list will play next year in a different conference than the one in which they won most of their games.

Once again, I must make a disclaimer that I may have overlooked somebody. I don't have a list of all 126 FBS schools.

(06-14-2014 10:21 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(06-13-2014 11:44 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  No one has mentioned Notre Dame? The exclusive NBC television contract football school and all-around national media darlings? They would be #1 on my list based on recent history, brand recognition, recruiting strength and students/alumni/fans expectations that include bowl wins and national championships....Lost 9 straight bowls from 1994-2006 and 11 out of their last 14 bowls including getting smoked by Bama in the 2012 BCS Championship. Last national championship 1988.

Recent history?

Do you mean the 37-15 record the last four years under Kelly, 21-5 the past two seasons?

The 12-0 regular season and a title game appearance two years ago?

(06-15-2014 01:07 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  In the last 20 years ND is 3-14 in bowls, 0-4 in BCS Bowls.

ND's BCS Bowl record:
L 41-9 v Oregon, 2001
L 34-20 v Ohio State, 2006
L 41-14 v LSU, 2007
L 42-13 v Alabama, 2013

3 of ND's 4 BCS Bowl losses make the list of top 10 biggest blowouts in BCS Bowl history.

There is no team that is consistently more over rated than Notre Dame.

TerryD - recent history meant the past 20 years as I stated in my bowl stats for ND and as perimeterpost covered in more detail. I agree that ND is doing better from a win/loss standpoint under Coach Kelly and he is a great coach no doubt. However, the thread is regarding underachieving teams and not necessarily teams that can win games. My point is with all of Notre Dame's resources and notoriety they have not been successful when it counts IMO - the BCS appearance against Bama (when they were blown out) notwithstanding.

(06-15-2014 01:07 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  

(06-14-2014 10:45 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  I think overall, Notre Dame has underachieved in the last quarter century, the year they overachieved by advancing to the national title game not withstanding.

In the last 20 years ND is 3-14 in bowls, 0-4 in BCS Bowls.

ND's BCS Bowl record:
L 41-9 v Oregon, 2001
L 34-20 v Ohio State, 2006
L 41-14 v LSU, 2007
L 42-13 v Alabama, 2013

3 of ND's 4 BCS Bowl losses make the list of top 10 biggest blowouts in BCS Bowl history.

There is no team that is consistently more over rated than Notre Dame.

Ancient history. I thought ND fans were the ones accused of living in the past. ?

How was Alabama under Mike Shula ?

(06-15-2014 03:36 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  

(06-14-2014 10:21 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(06-13-2014 11:44 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  No one has mentioned Notre Dame? The exclusive NBC television contract football school and all-around national media darlings? They would be #1 on my list based on recent history, brand recognition, recruiting strength and students/alumni/fans expectations that include bowl wins and national championships....Lost 9 straight bowls from 1994-2006 and 11 out of their last 14 bowls including getting smoked by Bama in the 2012 BCS Championship. Last national championship 1988.

Recent history?

Do you mean the 37-15 record the last four years under Kelly, 21-5 the past two seasons?

The 12-0 regular season and a title game appearance two years ago?

(06-15-2014 01:07 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  In the last 20 years ND is 3-14 in bowls, 0-4 in BCS Bowls.

ND's BCS Bowl record:
L 41-9 v Oregon, 2001
L 34-20 v Ohio State, 2006
L 41-14 v LSU, 2007
L 42-13 v Alabama, 2013

3 of ND's 4 BCS Bowl losses make the list of top 10 biggest blowouts in BCS Bowl history.

There is no team that is consistently more over rated than Notre Dame.

TerryD - recent history meant the past 20 years as I stated in my bowl stats for ND and as perimeterpost covered in more detail. I agree that ND is doing better from a win/loss standpoint under Coach Kelly and he is a great coach no doubt. However, the thread is regarding underachieving teams and not necessarily teams that can win games. My point is with all of Notre Dame's resources and notoriety they have not been successful when it counts IMO - the BCS appearance against Bama (when they were blown out) notwithstanding.

Self defined recent history?

Why not 30 years? 5 years?

(06-15-2014 01:12 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(06-15-2014 01:07 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  

(06-14-2014 10:45 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  I think overall, Notre Dame has underachieved in the last quarter century, the year they overachieved by advancing to the national title game not withstanding.

In the last 20 years ND is 3-14 in bowls, 0-4 in BCS Bowls.

ND's BCS Bowl record:
L 41-9 v Oregon, 2001
L 34-20 v Ohio State, 2006
L 41-14 v LSU, 2007
L 42-13 v Alabama, 2013

3 of ND's 4 BCS Bowl losses make the list of top 10 biggest blowouts in BCS Bowl history.

There is no team that is consistently more over rated than Notre Dame.

Very well put.

The NC shot season didn't herald a major change in direction.

Says who? Do you have a crystal ball?

(06-15-2014 01:07 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  

(06-14-2014 10:45 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  I think overall, Notre Dame has underachieved in the last quarter century, the year they overachieved by advancing to the national title game not withstanding.

In the last 20 years ND is 3-14 in bowls, 0-4 in BCS Bowls.

ND's BCS Bowl record:
L 41-9 v Oregon, 2001
L 34-20 v Ohio State, 2006
L 41-14 v LSU, 2007
L 42-13 v Alabama, 2013

3 of ND's 4 BCS Bowl losses make the list of top 10 biggest blowouts in BCS Bowl history.

There is no team that is consistently more over rated than Notre Dame.

Michigan?

(06-15-2014 03:41 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(06-15-2014 01:12 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(06-15-2014 01:07 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  

(06-14-2014 10:45 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  I think overall, Notre Dame has underachieved in the last quarter century, the year they overachieved by advancing to the national title game not withstanding.

In the last 20 years ND is 3-14 in bowls, 0-4 in BCS Bowls.

ND's BCS Bowl record:
L 41-9 v Oregon, 2001
L 34-20 v Ohio State, 2006
L 41-14 v LSU, 2007
L 42-13 v Alabama, 2013

3 of ND's 4 BCS Bowl losses make the list of top 10 biggest blowouts in BCS Bowl history.

There is no team that is consistently more over rated than Notre Dame.

Very well put.

The NC shot season didn't herald a major change in direction.

Says who? Do you have a crystal ball?

You miss last season?

Clearly this whole convo has stirred up the ND homer.

(06-15-2014 03:47 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Clearly this whole convo has stirred up the ND homer.

Yep.

Not really. I am a lawyer. Debates and arguments are my stock in trade. I like it, but no emotion involved. Its a hobby here.

I only get to debate ND topics because, frankly, I don't give a damn about other schools, all conferences or college sports in general.

My perspective is just a bit different.

ND went 100-30-1 from 1986-96 (Holtz) and went 37-15 from 2010-2013 (Kelly). Nobody seems wants to acknowledge that.

The 15 years in between? The worst stretch in ND football history, without doubt.

A hiccup or down period due to poor coaching hires (the three worst ever?). That has since been corrected.

Have a good day, guys. My three adult kids are taking me out to dinner. Happy Father's Day.

So in 3 years Kelley has lost half as many games as it took Holtz to lose in 10. That's not good.

Have fun with your kids.

(06-15-2014 03:47 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(06-15-2014 03:41 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(06-15-2014 01:12 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(06-15-2014 01:07 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  

(06-14-2014 10:45 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  I think overall, Notre Dame has underachieved in the last quarter century, the year they overachieved by advancing to the national title game not withstanding.

In the last 20 years ND is 3-14 in bowls, 0-4 in BCS Bowls.

ND's BCS Bowl record:
L 41-9 v Oregon, 2001
L 34-20 v Ohio State, 2006
L 41-14 v LSU, 2007
L 42-13 v Alabama, 2013

3 of ND's 4 BCS Bowl losses make the list of top 10 biggest blowouts in BCS Bowl history.

There is no team that is consistently more over rated than Notre Dame.

Very well put.

The NC shot season didn't herald a major change in direction.

Says who? Do you have a crystal ball?

You miss last season?

I just saw this post before I head out the door.

The 9-4 one? Part of the 21-5 the past two years? (Where does that put ND...top five during that time?).

No, I didn't miss it, but ND's starting quarterback (Everett Golson) missed it because of suspension. QB Gunner Kiel did too, due to transfer to Cincy.

9-4 was pretty good with a weak armed statue (who would have been third string) named Tommy Rees at QB.

Dual threat QB's Everett Golson and Malik Zaire are under center this year.

Top ten finish?

(06-15-2014 04:54 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  So in 3 years Kelley has lost half as many games as it took Holtz to lose in 10. That's not good.

Have fun with your kids.

Holtz was 13-10 in his first two years at ND.....

Kelly was 16-10 in his first two years at ND.

It was 11 years for Holtz and 4 years so far for Kelly (no second "e" in his name).

Thanks. Take care.

(06-15-2014 04:56 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(06-15-2014 03:47 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(06-15-2014 03:41 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(06-15-2014 01:12 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(06-15-2014 01:07 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  In the last 20 years ND is 3-14 in bowls, 0-4 in BCS Bowls.

ND's BCS Bowl record:
L 41-9 v Oregon, 2001
L 34-20 v Ohio State, 2006
L 41-14 v LSU, 2007
L 42-13 v Alabama, 2013

3 of ND's 4 BCS Bowl losses make the list of top 10 biggest blowouts in BCS Bowl history.

There is no team that is consistently more over rated than Notre Dame.

Very well put.

The NC shot season didn't herald a major change in direction.

Says who? Do you have a crystal ball?

You miss last season?

I just saw this post before I head out the door.

The 9-4 one? Part of the 21-5 the past two years? (Where does that put ND...top five during that time?).

No, I didn't miss it, but ND's starting quarterback (Everett Golson) missed it because of suspension. QB Gunner Kiel did too, due to transfer to Cincy.

9-4 was pretty good with a weak armed statue (who would have been third string) named Tommy Rees at QB.

Dual threat QB's Everett Golson and Malik Zaire are under center this year.

Top ten finish?

9-4 and no stir.

I wish I could say I knew who all you lost to but ND just doesn't make the news much anymore.

(06-15-2014 04:13 PM)TerryD Wrote:  Not really. I am a lawyer. Debates and arguments are my stock in trade. I like it, but no emotion involved. Its a hobby here.

I only get to debate ND topics because, frankly, I don't give a damn about other schools, all conferences or college sports in general.

My perspective is just a bit different.

ND went 100-30-1 from 1986-96 (Holtz) and went 37-15 from 2010-2013 (Kelly). Nobody seems wants to acknowledge that.

The 15 years in between? The worst stretch in ND football history, without doubt.

A hiccup or down period due to poor coaching hires (the three worst ever?). That has since been corrected.

Have a good day, guys. My three adult kids are taking me out to dinner. Happy Father's Day.

true Terry but it was that 15 year stretch and the fact that it 'seems' like ND was preseason top 15 every one of those years that is what is sticking with most of the people voting for ND and the underachieving label right now.....me included

(06-15-2014 04:13 PM)TerryD Wrote:  Not really. I am a lawyer. Debates and arguments are my stock in trade. I like it, but no emotion involved. Its a hobby here.

I only get to debate ND topics because, frankly, I don't give a damn about other schools, all conferences or college sports in general.

My perspective is just a bit different.

ND went 100-30-1 from 1986-96 (Holtz) and went 37-15 from 2010-2013 (Kelly). Nobody seems wants to acknowledge that.

The 15 years in between? The worst stretch in ND football history, without doubt.

A hiccup or down period due to poor coaching hires (the three worst ever?). That has since been corrected.

Have a good day, guys. My three adult kids are taking me out to dinner. Happy Father's Day.

O'Leary probably would have been successful if not for the graduate degree résumé fiasco. That would have spared you the Wies fiasco.

(06-15-2014 03:37 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(06-15-2014 01:07 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  

(06-14-2014 10:45 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  I think overall, Notre Dame has underachieved in the last quarter century, the year they overachieved by advancing to the national title game not withstanding.

In the last 20 years ND is 3-14 in bowls, 0-4 in BCS Bowls.

ND's BCS Bowl record:
L 41-9 v Oregon, 2001
L 34-20 v Ohio State, 2006
L 41-14 v LSU, 2007
L 42-13 v Alabama, 2013

3 of ND's 4 BCS Bowl losses make the list of top 10 biggest blowouts in BCS Bowl history.

There is no team that is consistently more over rated than Notre Dame.

Ancient history. I thought ND fans were the ones accused of living in the past. ?

How was Alabama under Mike Shula ?

I didn't know a game played on 1/7/13 was part of "ancient history".

Ok then, here's ND's ranking in Week 1 vs end of season and record, for the last 5 years-

2009
#23/NR (6-6)

2010
NR/NR (8-5)

2011
#16/NR (8-5)

2012
NR/#1 (12-1)

2013
#14/NR (9-4)

You can keep going back a long way and you still won't find an example of ND finishing the season ranked higher than they were in the pre season. 2012 is the lone exception to this trend but is still a shining example of how grossly ND was over rated. 42-13 in a NCG? And to think that everyone was upset that Northern Illinois was in a BCS bowl that year, they lost, but not that bad. Embarrassing.