(06-11-2014 09:26 AM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 09:14 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  So this post was to troll people with religious values? Color me surprised.

Not at all. I'm interested in discussion on the topic. Maybe you have something to add?

I added a clear, concise and honest comment on the topic up thread. You must have missed it in your search for anything that isn't perfect so that you can sneer and reject with typical liberal smugness.

I swear you do nothing but read through links grunting impatiently at all the clever, interesting, or thought-provoking bits, waiting until you find a statement or opinion that your think you can take strong exception to whereupon you hit the reply button and launch your BS.

You never posting in good faith is getting tiring as all hell.

You posted the exact same thread topic last year. I bet all the answers you received then are the same as what you see in this thread. I don't even have to read the thread.

(06-11-2014 09:47 AM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 09:39 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 09:11 AM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  Do you believe that god is totally omniscient? Does god, as you believe, have a perfect knowledge of everything? If so, that's a real problem. If not, that's a real problem too.

Not really since you're trying to ascribe logical proofs to a deity. That hurdle is overcome for Christians via faith. As faith is belief in absence of proof, such constraints are invalid.

When faith crosses into willful ignorance, then it no longer makes you a better person. It makes you a fool.

Willful ignorance of what, the unwinnable argument you've constructed above? The belief in God ultimately boils down to faith, whether you like it or not. An omniscient, eternal God is not constrained to the learning principles you've used to troll us.

(06-11-2014 09:48 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 09:26 AM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 09:14 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  So this post was to troll people with religious values? Color me surprised.

Not at all. I'm interested in discussion on the topic. Maybe you have something to add?

I added a clear, concise and honest comment on the topic up thread. You must have missed it in your search for anything that isn't perfect so that you can sneer and reject with typical liberal smugness.

I swear you do nothing but read through links grunting impatiently at all the clever, interesting, or thought-provoking bits, waiting until you find a statement or opinion that your think you can take strong exception to whereupon you hit the reply button and launch your BS.

You never posting in good faith is getting tiring as all hell.

There was nothing to respond to in your previous post. I invited you to add more if you wanted. Maybe you could do that with less bitterness? That would be great. Thanks.

(06-11-2014 09:54 AM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  There was nothing to respond to in your previous post. I invited you to add more if you wanted. Maybe you could do that with less bitterness? That would be great. Thanks.

Your reputation leads myself and others to believe that nothing you post is in good faith. I hope that helps you reflect a bit upon yourself and to perhaps encourage you to make honest comments.

Best of luck to you /

All of Society

(06-11-2014 09:47 AM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 09:39 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 09:11 AM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 09:06 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 09:02 AM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  Catholics tried to solve this problem long ago by just going with the "god is mysterious" line of thought. Mormons go with the "philosophies of men can't fathom god" schtick. Some christians went so far as to devise a "total omniscience" versus "inherent omniscience" argument. I'm not surprised that most of you religious righties don't get the issue. Most things are beyond that ilk.

Again, I'm willing to talk, but I don't think you've clarified your question. It's the equivalent of asking what was the universe like before the Big Bang? Or more appropriately, what experiment can you conduct that proves the Big Bang is the method that created the universe we inhabit today?

Do you believe that god is totally omniscient? Does god, as you believe, have a perfect knowledge of everything? If so, that's a real problem. If not, that's a real problem too.

Not really since you're trying to ascribe logical proofs to a deity. That hurdle is overcome for Christians via faith. As faith is belief in absence of proof, such constraints are invalid.

When faith crosses into willful ignorance, then it no longer makes you a better person. It makes you a fool.

Willful ignorance of what? Science makes the same blind leaps all the time. You are unaware of the motivations that led me to Christianity and blithely assume that I could be that same person without it. More over, why do you care so much about faith if you don't believe? Are you under the impression that somehow the world will be a better place without religion?

(06-11-2014 10:01 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 09:54 AM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  There was nothing to respond to in your previous post. I invited you to add more if you wanted. Maybe you could do that with less bitterness? That would be great. Thanks.

Your reputation leads myself and others to believe that nothing you post is in good faith. I hope that helps you reflect a bit upon yourself and to perhaps encourage you to make honest comments.

Best of luck to you /

All of Society

There's nothing more brutal than ideas. If someone can't handle a prickly personality, then they surely can't handle the ideas wrapped within. Best of luck to you too.

(06-11-2014 10:13 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 09:47 AM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 09:39 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 09:11 AM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 09:06 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  Again, I'm willing to talk, but I don't think you've clarified your question. It's the equivalent of asking what was the universe like before the Big Bang? Or more appropriately, what experiment can you conduct that proves the Big Bang is the method that created the universe we inhabit today?

Do you believe that god is totally omniscient? Does god, as you believe, have a perfect knowledge of everything? If so, that's a real problem. If not, that's a real problem too.

Not really since you're trying to ascribe logical proofs to a deity. That hurdle is overcome for Christians via faith. As faith is belief in absence of proof, such constraints are invalid.

When faith crosses into willful ignorance, then it no longer makes you a better person. It makes you a fool.

Willful ignorance of what? Science makes the same blind leaps all the time. You are unaware of the motivations that led me to Christianity and blithely assume that I could be that same person without it. More over, why do you care so much about faith if you don't believe? Are you under the impression that somehow the world will be a better place without religion?

Let's say someone starts with a conclusion. They believe the conclusion is true with all their heart. So much so, that they disregard anything that suggests the conclusion is false. That's willful ignorance, and it's sad.

(06-11-2014 10:22 AM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 10:13 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 09:47 AM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 09:39 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 09:11 AM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  Do you believe that god is totally omniscient? Does god, as you believe, have a perfect knowledge of everything? If so, that's a real problem. If not, that's a real problem too.

Not really since you're trying to ascribe logical proofs to a deity. That hurdle is overcome for Christians via faith. As faith is belief in absence of proof, such constraints are invalid.

When faith crosses into willful ignorance, then it no longer makes you a better person. It makes you a fool.

Willful ignorance of what? Science makes the same blind leaps all the time. You are unaware of the motivations that led me to Christianity and blithely assume that I could be that same person without it. More over, why do you care so much about faith if you don't believe? Are you under the impression that somehow the world will be a better place without religion?

Let's say someone starts with a conclusion. They believe the conclusion is true with all their heart. So much so, that they disregard anything that suggests the conclusion is false. That's willful ignorance, and it's sad.

Not that I need your pity, but what evidence do you have that my conclusion is false?

(06-11-2014 10:18 AM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  There's nothing more brutal than ideas. If someone can't handle a prickly personality, then they surely can't handle the ideas wrapped within. Best of luck to you too.

Our problem is not your ideas, it is that no one can ever be sure if you are posting in good faith. Your current reputation should be disappointing to you if you are, as you say, honestly in search discussion.

If I understand correctly, you are perhaps involved in education. My guess is that you would never take seriously a student or peer who communicates to you in the way you communicate here. Or are you this prickly a personality in real life?

(06-11-2014 10:22 AM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 10:13 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 09:47 AM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 09:39 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 09:11 AM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  Do you believe that god is totally omniscient? Does god, as you believe, have a perfect knowledge of everything? If so, that's a real problem. If not, that's a real problem too.

Not really since you're trying to ascribe logical proofs to a deity. That hurdle is overcome for Christians via faith. As faith is belief in absence of proof, such constraints are invalid.

When faith crosses into willful ignorance, then it no longer makes you a better person. It makes you a fool.

Willful ignorance of what? Science makes the same blind leaps all the time. You are unaware of the motivations that led me to Christianity and blithely assume that I could be that same person without it. More over, why do you care so much about faith if you don't believe? Are you under the impression that somehow the world will be a better place without religion?

Let's say someone starts with a conclusion. They believe the conclusion is true with all their heart. So much so, that they disregard anything that suggests the conclusion is false. That's willful ignorance, and it's sad.

I certainly get your point USM. I've grappled with my own spiritual beliefs and continue to do so. One thing I believe is that God cannot be understood. Some christians disagree with that, thats fine. But if I'm going to be really honest, I have to admit I don't understand everything and thus cannot say with absolute certainty the fundamentalist belef system is wrong. I do not personally believe it, but it's OK because I know what I do believe and it brings me comfort. I think we need to make a distinction between whjat is spiritual and what is religious. They are 2 different things. My problem with fundamentalists (of all persuasions) is they rely on dogma rather than developing their own personal belief system. The idea that someone knows, absolutely, what is right not only for them selves but for you also is what pisses me off.

(06-11-2014 10:22 AM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 10:13 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 09:47 AM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 09:39 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 09:11 AM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  Do you believe that god is totally omniscient? Does god, as you believe, have a perfect knowledge of everything? If so, that's a real problem. If not, that's a real problem too.

Not really since you're trying to ascribe logical proofs to a deity. That hurdle is overcome for Christians via faith. As faith is belief in absence of proof, such constraints are invalid.

When faith crosses into willful ignorance, then it no longer makes you a better person. It makes you a fool.

Willful ignorance of what? Science makes the same blind leaps all the time. You are unaware of the motivations that led me to Christianity and blithely assume that I could be that same person without it. More over, why do you care so much about faith if you don't believe? Are you under the impression that somehow the world will be a better place without religion?

Let's say someone starts with a conclusion. They believe the conclusion is true with all their heart. So much so, that they disregard anything that suggests the conclusion is false. That's willful ignorance, and it's sad.

Bottom Line, I guess we will all find out one way or another when the time comes. You choose your beliefs, I'll choose mine. Eventually we will get our answers.

You can label it as willful ignorance if you choose, others will call it faith.

It's really pretty simple.

(06-11-2014 10:27 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 10:22 AM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 10:13 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 09:47 AM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 09:39 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  Not really since you're trying to ascribe logical proofs to a deity. That hurdle is overcome for Christians via faith. As faith is belief in absence of proof, such constraints are invalid.

When faith crosses into willful ignorance, then it no longer makes you a better person. It makes you a fool.

Willful ignorance of what? Science makes the same blind leaps all the time. You are unaware of the motivations that led me to Christianity and blithely assume that I could be that same person without it. More over, why do you care so much about faith if you don't believe? Are you under the impression that somehow the world will be a better place without religion?

Let's say someone starts with a conclusion. They believe the conclusion is true with all their heart. So much so, that they disregard anything that suggests the conclusion is false. That's willful ignorance, and it's sad.

Not that I need your pity, but what evidence do you have that my conclusion is false?

Could you define for me what you conclusion is first? Do you believe there is an omnipotent, omniscient, loving god that is engaged with this world and with each person?

(06-11-2014 10:36 AM)Crebman Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 10:22 AM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 10:13 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 09:47 AM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 09:39 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  Not really since you're trying to ascribe logical proofs to a deity. That hurdle is overcome for Christians via faith. As faith is belief in absence of proof, such constraints are invalid.

When faith crosses into willful ignorance, then it no longer makes you a better person. It makes you a fool.

Willful ignorance of what? Science makes the same blind leaps all the time. You are unaware of the motivations that led me to Christianity and blithely assume that I could be that same person without it. More over, why do you care so much about faith if you don't believe? Are you under the impression that somehow the world will be a better place without religion?

Let's say someone starts with a conclusion. They believe the conclusion is true with all their heart. So much so, that they disregard anything that suggests the conclusion is false. That's willful ignorance, and it's sad.

Bottom Line, I guess we will all find out one way or another when the time comes. You choose your beliefs, I'll choose mine. Eventually we will get our answers.

You can label it as willful ignorance if you choose, others will call it faith.

It's really pretty simple.

Not when you need to pad your ego by finding someone or some thing to look down your nose at and try and ridicule. Kinda sad, really.

(06-11-2014 10:39 AM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 10:27 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 10:22 AM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 10:13 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 09:47 AM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  When faith crosses into willful ignorance, then it no longer makes you a better person. It makes you a fool.

Willful ignorance of what? Science makes the same blind leaps all the time. You are unaware of the motivations that led me to Christianity and blithely assume that I could be that same person without it. More over, why do you care so much about faith if you don't believe? Are you under the impression that somehow the world will be a better place without religion?

Let's say someone starts with a conclusion. They believe the conclusion is true with all their heart. So much so, that they disregard anything that suggests the conclusion is false. That's willful ignorance, and it's sad.

Not that I need your pity, but what evidence do you have that my conclusion is false?

Could you define for me what you conclusion is first? Do you believe there is an omnipotent, omniscient, loving god that is engaged with this world and with each person?

Why do you care? Are you going to somehow prove there isn't?

(06-11-2014 10:39 AM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 10:36 AM)Crebman Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 10:22 AM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 10:13 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 09:47 AM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  When faith crosses into willful ignorance, then it no longer makes you a better person. It makes you a fool.

Willful ignorance of what? Science makes the same blind leaps all the time. You are unaware of the motivations that led me to Christianity and blithely assume that I could be that same person without it. More over, why do you care so much about faith if you don't believe? Are you under the impression that somehow the world will be a better place without religion?

Let's say someone starts with a conclusion. They believe the conclusion is true with all their heart. So much so, that they disregard anything that suggests the conclusion is false. That's willful ignorance, and it's sad.

Bottom Line, I guess we will all find out one way or another when the time comes. You choose your beliefs, I'll choose mine. Eventually we will get our answers.

You can label it as willful ignorance if you choose, others will call it faith.

It's really pretty simple.

Not when you need to pad your ego by finding someone or some thing to look down your nose at and try and ridicule. Kinda sad, really.

Good lord, pot meet kettle.

(06-11-2014 10:39 AM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 10:36 AM)Crebman Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 10:22 AM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 10:13 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 09:47 AM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  When faith crosses into willful ignorance, then it no longer makes you a better person. It makes you a fool.

Willful ignorance of what? Science makes the same blind leaps all the time. You are unaware of the motivations that led me to Christianity and blithely assume that I could be that same person without it. More over, why do you care so much about faith if you don't believe? Are you under the impression that somehow the world will be a better place without religion?

Let's say someone starts with a conclusion. They believe the conclusion is true with all their heart. So much so, that they disregard anything that suggests the conclusion is false. That's willful ignorance, and it's sad.

Bottom Line, I guess we will all find out one way or another when the time comes. You choose your beliefs, I'll choose mine. Eventually we will get our answers.

You can label it as willful ignorance if you choose, others will call it faith.

It's really pretty simple.

Not when you need to pad your ego by finding someone or some thing to look down your nose at and try and ridicule. Kinda sad, really.

He had made a habit of this kind of behavior. UMGrad's actions scream elitist, academic who thinks he knows it all.

On this topic, all of us - Grad included - will eventually find out the answer. This is one of those debates that won't be answered until our actions have already determine our fate.

We had a terrible torpedo at the beginning of World War II. It had only
been tested twice, in perfect conditions. It failed time after time and
cost sailors their lives. Because of budget restraints. Further testing
would have saved untold lives. So yes.

(06-11-2014 10:36 AM)Crebman Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 10:22 AM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 10:13 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 09:47 AM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 09:39 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  Not really since you're trying to ascribe logical proofs to a deity. That hurdle is overcome for Christians via faith. As faith is belief in absence of proof, such constraints are invalid.

When faith crosses into willful ignorance, then it no longer makes you a better person. It makes you a fool.

Willful ignorance of what? Science makes the same blind leaps all the time. You are unaware of the motivations that led me to Christianity and blithely assume that I could be that same person without it. More over, why do you care so much about faith if you don't believe? Are you under the impression that somehow the world will be a better place without religion?

Let's say someone starts with a conclusion. They believe the conclusion is true with all their heart. So much so, that they disregard anything that suggests the conclusion is false. That's willful ignorance, and it's sad.

Bottom Line, I guess we will all find out one way or another when the time comes. You choose your beliefs, I'll choose mine. Eventually we will get our answers.

You can label it as willful ignorance if you choose, others will call it faith.

It's really pretty simple.

I think OldDominion did a good job of laying out the issue. It's not that faith necessarily represents willful ignorance, and faith isn't a bad trait at all. Even if someone of faith encounters something that contradicts their conclusion, that doesn't necessarily mean they should stop their faith. The problem is when they face contradictions time after time, yet the refuse to acknowledge that the thing they have faith in might be false.

Then, as OldDominon described, they want to push that faith on others through public policy decisions. I couldn't care less what someone else wants to believe, but when that belief affects my life, then I have no choice but to care. Then we have to have discussions on why I reject dogmatic religion and why that religion shouldn't be used to set policy for those who don't accept it as undeniable truth.

So I'm not out to tell others to revoke their faith. I'm just trying to get others to grasp why some see their faith as misguided and why it shouldn't be used as a basis for public policy. And it is an interesting intellectual endeavor.

(06-11-2014 09:02 AM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  Catholics tried to solve this problem long ago by just going with the "god is mysterious" line of thought. Mormons go with the "philosophies of men can't fathom god" schtick. Some christians went so far as to devise a "total omniscience" versus "inherent omniscience" argument. I'm not surprised that most of you religious righties don't get the issue. Most things are beyond that ilk.

The issue is simply you don't understand logic. You've presented no conundrum, except in your own simple mind.