(06-09-2014 09:54 AM)TPBlaze84 Wrote:  

(06-09-2014 09:35 AM)EagleX Wrote:  

(06-09-2014 09:29 AM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  America does not have the fortitude to "win" any war. Our military is being slashed, our borders are being overrun and the Republic is being whipped into submission by the socialist/communists. Our leadership are a bunch of hapless failures.

politely, I couldn't disagree more.

it wasn't a failure of leadership. the failure was ours; the american public. we simply don't have the stamina for a prolonged shooting war, even after our homeland is attacked by radicals that admit in stark terms that they want to exterminate us from the face of the earth. we thought we were playing a video game, or watching a movie, or something. we're pampered, spoiled, and simply not used to really having to work for very much -- not even our very survival.

There may be elements of truth about the attitude that you have described in certain sectors of American society, (I would hasten to add they have existed for at least a century), but I don't think that attitude exists in those who actually do the fighting. I would emphatically argue that those in the US military are very used to having to work for a lot and are no where near "spoiled."

As others have mentioned, in my opinion, the main problem with our Middle Eastern experience was its asymmetrical nature against ideas rather than nations.

I very clearly and quite specifically said the american public couldn't hack it.

(06-09-2014 09:55 AM)EagleX Wrote:  

(06-09-2014 09:54 AM)TPBlaze84 Wrote:  

(06-09-2014 09:35 AM)EagleX Wrote:  

(06-09-2014 09:29 AM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  America does not have the fortitude to "win" any war. Our military is being slashed, our borders are being overrun and the Republic is being whipped into submission by the socialist/communists. Our leadership are a bunch of hapless failures.

politely, I couldn't disagree more.

it wasn't a failure of leadership. the failure was ours; the american public. we simply don't have the stamina for a prolonged shooting war, even after our homeland is attacked by radicals that admit in stark terms that they want to exterminate us from the face of the earth. we thought we were playing a video game, or watching a movie, or something. we're pampered, spoiled, and simply not used to really having to work for very much -- not even our very survival.

There may be elements of truth about the attitude that you have described in certain sectors of American society, (I would hasten to add they have existed for at least a century), but I don't think that attitude exists in those who actually do the fighting. I would emphatically argue that those in the US military are very used to having to work for a lot and are no where near "spoiled."

As others have mentioned, in my opinion, the main problem with our Middle Eastern experience was its asymmetrical nature against ideas rather than nations.

I very clearly and quite specifically said the american public couldn't hack it.

Okay, what should the public have done that they didn't do? (Serious question) Accept ever-increasing casualty numbers for a war that was fought increasingly ineffectively against a foe/cause that is never going to go away short of complete annihilation?

(06-09-2014 09:58 AM)TPBlaze84 Wrote:  

(06-09-2014 09:55 AM)EagleX Wrote:  

(06-09-2014 09:54 AM)TPBlaze84 Wrote:  

(06-09-2014 09:35 AM)EagleX Wrote:  

(06-09-2014 09:29 AM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  America does not have the fortitude to "win" any war. Our military is being slashed, our borders are being overrun and the Republic is being whipped into submission by the socialist/communists. Our leadership are a bunch of hapless failures.

politely, I couldn't disagree more.

it wasn't a failure of leadership. the failure was ours; the american public. we simply don't have the stamina for a prolonged shooting war, even after our homeland is attacked by radicals that admit in stark terms that they want to exterminate us from the face of the earth. we thought we were playing a video game, or watching a movie, or something. we're pampered, spoiled, and simply not used to really having to work for very much -- not even our very survival.

There may be elements of truth about the attitude that you have described in certain sectors of American society, (I would hasten to add they have existed for at least a century), but I don't think that attitude exists in those who actually do the fighting. I would emphatically argue that those in the US military are very used to having to work for a lot and are no where near "spoiled."

As others have mentioned, in my opinion, the main problem with our Middle Eastern experience was its asymmetrical nature against ideas rather than nations.

I very clearly and quite specifically said the american public couldn't hack it.

Okay, what should the public have done that they didn't do? (Serious question) Accept ever-increasing casualty numbers for a war that was fought increasingly ineffectively against a foe/cause that is never going to go away short of complete annihilation?

Change the ROE and let our military mop up the mess, no press.

(06-09-2014 10:07 AM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  

(06-09-2014 09:58 AM)TPBlaze84 Wrote:  

(06-09-2014 09:55 AM)EagleX Wrote:  

(06-09-2014 09:54 AM)TPBlaze84 Wrote:  

(06-09-2014 09:35 AM)EagleX Wrote:  politely, I couldn't disagree more.

it wasn't a failure of leadership. the failure was ours; the american public. we simply don't have the stamina for a prolonged shooting war, even after our homeland is attacked by radicals that admit in stark terms that they want to exterminate us from the face of the earth. we thought we were playing a video game, or watching a movie, or something. we're pampered, spoiled, and simply not used to really having to work for very much -- not even our very survival.

There may be elements of truth about the attitude that you have described in certain sectors of American society, (I would hasten to add they have existed for at least a century), but I don't think that attitude exists in those who actually do the fighting. I would emphatically argue that those in the US military are very used to having to work for a lot and are no where near "spoiled."

As others have mentioned, in my opinion, the main problem with our Middle Eastern experience was its asymmetrical nature against ideas rather than nations.

I very clearly and quite specifically said the american public couldn't hack it.

Okay, what should the public have done that they didn't do? (Serious question) Accept ever-increasing casualty numbers for a war that was fought increasingly ineffectively against a foe/cause that is never going to go away short of complete annihilation?

Change the ROE and let our military mop up the mess, no press.

NO PRESS???


Who else is going to tell the entire nation, step by step, what's going on over there and what our next move is, as though our enemy can't see it plain as day on CNN and MSNBC?

/sarcasm



The press is an absolute fuucking retard when it comes to our war, they need to stay the hell out of all things dealing with it until it's all finished.

(06-09-2014 09:54 AM)EagleX Wrote:  

(06-09-2014 09:48 AM)gdunn Wrote:  Iraq and Afghanistan were quagmires.

We declared war on Terrorism, which is basically a countryless war. A war that will never be won by either side.

we were attacked. unprovoked. we didn't declare sh!t. I can't believe people have already forgotten how this started.

I hadn't forgotten. The problem lies in where the terrorists are. We declared war on Terrorism. At that time OBL was in Afghanistan. Then we declared war on Iraq. Let's face it, when our troops leave Afghanistan, the Taliban will rise and AQ will strengthen again. We haven't completely wiped them out.

(06-09-2014 01:12 PM)gdunn Wrote:  

(06-09-2014 09:54 AM)EagleX Wrote:  

(06-09-2014 09:48 AM)gdunn Wrote:  Iraq and Afghanistan were quagmires.

We declared war on Terrorism, which is basically a countryless war. A war that will never be won by either side.

we were attacked. unprovoked. we didn't declare sh!t. I can't believe people have already forgotten how this started.

I hadn't forgotten. The problem lies in where the terrorists are. We declared war on Terrorism. At that time OBL was in Afghanistan. Then we declared war on Iraq. Let's face it, when our troops leave Afghanistan, the Taliban will rise and AQ will strengthen again. We haven't completely wiped them out.

Yes, and we wouldn't no matter what we did. It's like killing ants in a large area. If you take drastic measures you can kill tons of them, but you won't get them all, and you'll spend the rest of your life hunting for them.

(06-09-2014 03:08 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  

(06-09-2014 01:12 PM)gdunn Wrote:  

(06-09-2014 09:54 AM)EagleX Wrote:  

(06-09-2014 09:48 AM)gdunn Wrote:  Iraq and Afghanistan were quagmires.
We declared war on Terrorism, which is basically a countryless war. A war that will never be won by either side.

we were attacked. unprovoked. we didn't declare sh!t. I can't believe people have already forgotten how this started.

I hadn't forgotten. The problem lies in where the terrorists are. We declared war on Terrorism. At that time OBL was in Afghanistan. Then we declared war on Iraq. Let's face it, when our troops leave Afghanistan, the Taliban will rise and AQ will strengthen again. We haven't completely wiped them out.

Yes, and we wouldn't no matter what we did. It's like killing ants in a large area. If you take drastic measures you can kill tons of them, but you won't get them all, and you'll spend the rest of your life hunting for them.

We declared a countryless war and then tried to win it by occupying territory. How stupid is that?

You take drastic measures and kill enough of them that the rest lose interest and change their minds, or else you are wasting your time, effort, and worst of all, casualties. This war should have been about killing people and breaking things, not occupying territory. That's pretty terrible to contemplate. War is terrible to contemplate. That's why warfare should never be anything but a last resort. And trying to have a war without it being terrible should be taken completely off the table. I think the difference between people who have fought a war and people who haven't, is that the former understand this.

It is entirely possible that Americans don't have the stomach for the level of killing required. If so, then fighting a half-assed war for 12 years is not the correct solution.