Now that's a little more honest. You "just want access"

but access to what?

access to the P5s money and exposure.

If there is a split, you no longer have access to either and that's what you are afraid of losing.

You say that's its "only fair" that you continue to have access to the P5's money and exposure...why?

(05-30-2014 02:21 AM)Tallgrass Wrote:  All of this, of course, should not come as a surprise to anyone. It has been coming down the pike for some time now. What is surprising to me, however, is the NonBCS conferences inability to organize themselves and respond to BCS conference moves in a thoughtful and productive manner.

The people who lead the G5 schools and conferences mostly see themselves getting that P5 job offer some day and aren't going to do their jobs and potentially blackball themselves.

Being a college hockey fan I can translate what many are not thinking about if the P5 takes their ball and goes home. Unless your are a Top 10 program, rankings are meaningless and with only 65 teams, you can bet the bowls will be gone!

Being ranked #20 with only 65 teams in your pool, whoopdie doo- who cares at that point? And with no bowls, you might see the P5 go to a 16 team playoff,then how will they feel when say the #19 team in the country doesn't even get a postseason berth. I see it in college hockey-you get a Top 25 ranked program that doesn't make the tournament with only 16 teams in the tournament. No reward for a good season???

Hockey needs more programs and if the P5 "starts over" with only the 65, they will be clamoring for more teams real quick, especially when Steve Spurrier and the Gamecocks start going 4-8 every year 'cause there are no "softies" to play OOC.

(05-29-2014 06:15 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(05-29-2014 06:12 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  

(05-29-2014 03:51 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  The quest for greed and power ultimately destroys things. Removing tradition, fun, and amateurism doesn't actually help the tens of thousands of student-athletes. It helps an elite few...maybe.

I do like how the G5 likes to pretend this isn't about losing YOUR access to the P5's money and exposure.

Just be honest and say "If we don't get to nominally be in the same division as the P5 and lose access to the money and exposure they generate that we cant generate for ourselves, our fans will lose interest and our programs are going to be in serious trouble!"

Strangely, from the G5 its not about the money at all. My guess is if the P5 offered a 16 team play off where every conference was AQ, but the P5 kept all the money---I suspect the G5 would take that deal in an instant. I KNOW the G5 fans would accept the deal. The funny thing is, from a TV standpoint, the P5 should actually be promoting interaction with the G5. The P5 are mostly nearing the upper end of what they can realistically be. The growth in any industry is in the new markets. The biggest potential lies in the FBS schools in the G5. If you could get rid of the in-fighting and turf battles---if there were a college football commisioner over all of FBS---I wonder what he would do to maximize the value of the sport over the long haul.

Why would the P5 offer a 16 team playoff where every conference was AQ? Would you?

Think about it--you are saying that a school from the much easier schedules of the AAC, MWC, Sunbelt, MAC, CUSA should have the same access to make a playoff as schools from the SEC, Big 12, Pac 12, Big Ten or ACC?-when the P5 schools are going to be playing 10 or more P5 level programs and the G5 might perhaps play one in a given year?

They should have the same financial access when the G5 schools don't generate the viewing or advertising $$ that the P5 schools do?

Its just not going to happen. Some schools have been investing in infrastructure and athletics for decades or even over a century at the highest possible levels and others just started really making a commitment in the last decade or so--which they did, as some have said, in order to gain revenues and exposure the AQ schools had built up.

No one is just handing over that equity--even the P5 conferences that have built up value are having schools buy into what has been built up. A&M, Missouri, CU, Utah, Nebraska, WVU, TCU all have had to take lesser shares to buy into the equity of their conferences and they all came from AQ conferences except for Utah and TCU. The power conferences aren't just going to hand over what they've built up because someone else wants to join the party late.

(05-30-2014 07:38 AM)10thMountain Wrote:  Now that's a little more honest. You "just want access"
but access to what?
access to the P5s money and exposure.
If there is a split, you no longer have access to either and that's what you are afraid of losing.
You say that's its "only fair" that you continue to have access to the P5's money and exposure...why?

Because College football is a national pasttime! Even the Rose Bowl is now in the public domain; the popularity of these games are for all Americans not soley for the PAC and B1G or P5's. Just like the NCAA's, all are invited and the best participate. If you start arbitrarily locking schools out, then you open up a can of anti-trust possibilites.

Even the current play-off system leaves room through the polls for any FBS member to get in (though clearly, highly unlikely). When you make rules to lock others out you have formed a Cartel.

Wow, you really are sitting there trying to justify that you deserve an equal slice of a cake you didn't help make but showed up right as it was finished and demanded your fair slice.

(05-30-2014 08:27 AM)10thMountain Wrote:  Wow, you really are sitting there trying to justify that you deserve an equal slice of a cake you didn't help make but showed up right as it was finished and demanded your fair slice.

Fair slice or fair opportunity. Maybe you need to rethink the reason you served this country.

(05-29-2014 09:17 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  

(05-29-2014 07:12 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(05-29-2014 06:12 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  

(05-29-2014 03:51 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  The quest for greed and power ultimately destroys things. Removing tradition, fun, and amateurism doesn't actually help the tens of thousands of student-athletes. It helps an elite few...maybe.

I do like how the G5 likes to pretend this isn't about losing YOUR access to the P5's money and exposure.

Just be honest and say "If we don't get to nominally be in the same division as the P5 and lose access to the money and exposure they generate that we cant generate for ourselves, our fans will lose interest and our programs are going to be in serious trouble!"

If there is a total split in all sports and governance I can deal. It's not like the P5 school in our state is ever going to man up and play us.

What will damage us all in G5 is being in a sports league where half the league does everything in its power to make the other half completely uncompetitive with them on the field in order to convince their fans that they've had a successful season and to buy more t-shirts.

It is no longer about sports or student-athletes or fun. It is about marketing, branding, and consuming. If competition, traditions, sports, student-athletes, or institutions of higher education need to be stabbed in the neck to assure the pie remains undivided..oh well.

Accusing the G5 of being the money grubbers here is amusing.

Again you act like the G5 is the sacred defender of all that is right in sports when in fact the only thing you're trying to protect is your own bottom line because you know a G5 on its own will have no money, no fans and no exposure.

You have zip understanding of how FBS works.

Take away the CFP money or before that the BCS money and few if any G5 schools have to alter their budget.

You have argued over and over and over and over and over that if there is a split the games continue, so... no losing the game guarantee income.

Cut game guarantees and CFP money and Arkansas State starts paying its football coaches more like a MAC school and hoop coaches more like the Southland and.... nothing else much happens.

Now let's cut Ole Miss and Miss St off the gravytrain. How much of the TV revenue you get now would you get as an indy not being attached to Bama, Florida and LSU?

Everyone is a sucker fish some just aren't able to admit it.

Here's what I think could happen:

1. The P5 split in a planned reaction to the current sports climate.

2. In 2-4 years, the bottom of the P5 begin to slowly suffocate. The TV money will be in a great spot, but ticket sales and apparel sales will be down as teams struggle to post 3 wins a season at times.

3. The TV networks - who by now control EVERYTHING - have three options to address the "new bottom" and the "new top":

a. Include new product that is built up to NEAR P5 standard - and put in requirements that they develop going forward. This will allow those schools that were at the bottom to creep closer to the middle of the pack.

b. Eliminate product that is suddenly obsolete and substandard.

c. Modify TV deals to benefit those schools that really do carry weight. I can see a program like Texas raising hell about this once the P5 make it so it is only themselves.

I think option C is most likely. If the P5 split, then they are NOT going to want to bring in any "old blood" from the G5. They're too arrogant to allow it.

------

The current climate is telling the P5 to split off completely. It's profitable to do so right now as well. Unfortunately, doing so will come at an ugly cost - and is that something they are willing to bear?

(05-29-2014 09:17 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  

(05-29-2014 07:12 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(05-29-2014 06:12 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  

(05-29-2014 03:51 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  The quest for greed and power ultimately destroys things. Removing tradition, fun, and amateurism doesn't actually help the tens of thousands of student-athletes. It helps an elite few...maybe.

I do like how the G5 likes to pretend this isn't about losing YOUR access to the P5's money and exposure.

Just be honest and say "If we don't get to nominally be in the same division as the P5 and lose access to the money and exposure they generate that we cant generate for ourselves, our fans will lose interest and our programs are going to be in serious trouble!"

If there is a total split in all sports and governance I can deal. It's not like the P5 school in our state is ever going to man up and play us.

What will damage us all in G5 is being in a sports league where half the league does everything in its power to make the other half completely uncompetitive with them on the field in order to convince their fans that they've had a successful season and to buy more t-shirts.

It is no longer about sports or student-athletes or fun. It is about marketing, branding, and consuming. If competition, traditions, sports, student-athletes, or institutions of higher education need to be stabbed in the neck to assure the pie remains undivided..oh well.

Accusing the G5 of being the money grubbers here is amusing.

Again you act like the G5 is the sacred defender of all that is right in sports when in fact the only thing you're trying to protect is your own bottom line because you know a G5 on its own will have no money, no fans and no exposure.

That's the assumption that always drives me nuts because its not true. G5 would have about 10% less money (if that much), about the same number of fans and exposure. Most G5 schools are subsidized by student fees or by the universities themselves. TV money represents around 1-10% of the average G5 budget. Most G5 schools only play one to two P5 schools a year anyway and rarely at home. Sure some fans may stop attending games, but it would be minimal drop at worst. With the number of sports channels its not as if there won't be opportunities to be on TV.

It's pretty amazing that P5 fans believe G5 schools are that fragile. Actually, most of us are pretty tough old birds.

We've survived for 100 seasons through much worse, while never being allowed to play the P5 school in our state and being obstructed financially. Many other G5's have survived similarly.

Would the P5 damage us? Yes. Would we survive to throw monkey wrenches into the works? Yes.

You keep saying how you'd be just fine

If that's true and it's not about access to P5 money and exposure then don't worry about what the P5 does.

(05-30-2014 09:20 AM)oliveandblue Wrote:  The current climate is telling the P5 to split off completely. It's profitable to do so right now as well. Unfortunately, doing so will come at an ugly cost - and is that something they are willing to bear?

A split off G5 wouldn't sit still. With totally independent governance they would learn pretty quickly how to carve out a niche and make money.

The P5 would still be Wal-Mart, but a G5 Walgreen's can still siphon off market share from the behemoth and be a pain forcing them to react.

(05-30-2014 11:38 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(05-30-2014 09:20 AM)oliveandblue Wrote:  The current climate is telling the P5 to split off completely. It's profitable to do so right now as well. Unfortunately, doing so will come at an ugly cost - and is that something they are willing to bear?

A split off G5 wouldn't sit still. With totally independent governance they would learn pretty quickly how to carve out a niche and make money.

The P5 would still be Wal-Mart, but a G5 Walgreen's can still siphon off market share from the behemoth and be a pain forcing them to react.

The G5 is essentially by and large not attractive to college football fans or viewers or casual sports fans. Its not something that has changed or will change.

The big boys are profiting of course, but they also want to maintain the success of college football into the future. G5 schools will still play P5 schools as away guarantee games and get on tv with those games--unless a break away is pushed. If the G5 has to create a league of their own, the revenues and exposure will be significantly less. Most g5 schools understand that probably -and aren't going to ruin what they do have (they can still make a CFP Bowl and other bowls).

(05-30-2014 11:37 AM)10thMountain Wrote:  You keep saying how you'd be just fine

If that's true and it's not about access to P5 money and exposure then don't worry about what the P5 does.

I didn't say we would be just fine. I said there would be damages....but we would survive and go forward.

(05-30-2014 11:59 AM)Tbringer Wrote:  

(05-30-2014 11:38 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(05-30-2014 09:20 AM)oliveandblue Wrote:  The current climate is telling the P5 to split off completely. It's profitable to do so right now as well. Unfortunately, doing so will come at an ugly cost - and is that something they are willing to bear?

A split off G5 wouldn't sit still. With totally independent governance they would learn pretty quickly how to carve out a niche and make money.

The P5 would still be Wal-Mart, but a G5 Walgreen's can still siphon off market share from the behemoth and be a pain forcing them to react.

The G5 is essentially by and large not attractive to college football fans or viewers or casual sports fans. Its not something that has changed or will change.

The big boys are profiting of course, but they also want to maintain the success of college football into the future. G5 schools will still play P5 schools as away guarantee games and get on tv with those games--unless a break away is pushed. If the G5 has to create a league of their own, the revenues and exposure will be significantly less. Most g5 schools understand that probably -and aren't going to ruin what they do have (they can still make a CFP Bowl and other bowls).

The G5 has never really been marketed or had the ability to make rules for themselves designed to compete with the P5 directly. That would no longer be the case after a split. We would not be able to "beat" the P5 but we wouldn't have to. We would just have to carve out more market share and profit than we are allowed now. Not an impossible task.

The P5 needs the G5 and they know it; without it some programs would become less entertaining over time. There would be too many losers if they only had themselves.

(05-30-2014 12:18 PM)Tigeer Wrote:  The P5 needs the G5 and they know it; without it some programs would become less entertaining over time. There would be too many losers if they only had themselves.

I really don't know how it would turn out. But some P5 fans have this fantasy that the P5 are all powerful and have a charmed existence. Immune to market forces, competition, judges, politicians, and media blowback.

It's all Big Rock Candy Mountain stuff.

If they were to split completely and go semi-pro it would basically send college sports into chaos. You never know how that will turn out. They might live happily ever after or the judges might decide they are an oligarchic trust and blow the whole thing up.

Like the politicians right before the first battle of the Civil War who stated that the amount of blood that was going to be spilled could be wiped up with a handkerchief.

This isn't a question of who 'deserves' what. It is about control.

And right now, who has control? The schools and clubs with the most money. Because you cannot convince the media as the Mid-American Conference to give you better publicity with a $10 million dollar check when the Big Ten can ask the same thing and multiply that by x1000 (to $10 billion dollars).

Money = power.

The SEC, Big Ten, Big 12, ACC, and PAC 12 have all the money. They dictate the future. And it is going to destroy what integrity remains in collegiate athletics.

(05-30-2014 12:52 PM)TampaKnight Wrote:  This isn't a question of who 'deserves' what. It is about control.

And right now, who has control? The schools and clubs with the most money. Because you cannot convince the media as the Mid-American Conference to give you better publicity with a $10 million dollar check when the Big Ten can ask the same thing and multiply that by x1000 (to $10 billion dollars).

Money = power.

The SEC, Big Ten, Big 12, ACC, and PAC 12 have all the money. They dictate the future. And it is going to destroy what integrity remains in collegiate athletics.

The only question I ask myself is, if both the schools I support were on the inside looking out, would I care.........I would hope so and I think so, but not 100% sure. I will say in the last three years or so I do not watch as much college FB and BB but I do not know if it is my age or if all this re-alignment stuff has caused me to lose interest. I can say I miss:

Pitt-WVU
Texas-Texas A&M
Kansas-Missouri
etc.

But I am middle age.