David Hall coached at Cy Creek before he got sick and passed away way too young. That probably would have been in the late 1990's - I know he coached Paul Janish there so this person may be younger than you think.

(05-15-2014 10:03 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  David Hall coached at Cy Creek before he got sick and passed away way too young. That probably would have been in the late 1990's - I know he coached Paul Janish there so this person may be younger than you think.

I know he was coached in high school, so it could've been before or after. My reason for saying before is the very little bit of information from my wife led me to think he was older than I. She was just tired and frustrated when I talked to her.

Law got in a few Wayne Graham blasts today in two espn insider posts regarding the misses of the 2004 first round and redrafting the 2004 first round...

"Niemann might be done as a big leaguer, or at least as a starter, but he had more of a big league career than I expected given the medical reports on him out of Rice in which one doctor told us he had "the elbow of a 35-year-old pitcher.""

"Niemann proved the most valuable of the ill-fated trio of Rice first-rounders, all of whom were so badly overpitched by coach Wayne Graham that injuries shortened or derailed their pro careers."

"We had Humber rated the highest of the three Rice starters (Humber, Jeff Niemann and Wade Townsend) taken in the first round, liking his stuff, command and medical history the most of the group, but Rice coach Wayne Graham worked them all so hard on the way to a national championship that they all got hurt."

(05-20-2014 12:30 PM)Scooter Wrote:  Law got in a few Wayne Graham blasts today in two espn insider posts regarding the misses of the 2004 first round and redrafting the 2004 first round...

"Niemann might be done as a big leaguer, or at least as a starter, but he had more of a big league career than I expected given the medical reports on him out of Rice in which one doctor told us he had "the elbow of a 35-year-old pitcher.""

"Niemann proved the most valuable of the ill-fated trio of Rice first-rounders, all of whom were so badly overpitched by coach Wayne Graham that injuries shortened or derailed their pro careers."

"We had Humber rated the highest of the three Rice starters (Humber, Jeff Niemann and Wade Townsend) taken in the first round, liking his stuff, command and medical history the most of the group, but Rice coach Wayne Graham worked them all so hard on the way to a national championship that they all got hurt."

The thing that I dislike about this sort of writing is that it isn't a FACT that their injuries were due to overwork. If there was evidence that the workload was THE reason for the injuries, then go ahead and blast away, but until there is irrefutable proof that their careers were not as good as they "should" have been because of Wayne's pitching decisions, he should not have such a definitive tone to his writing.

Writing something along on the lines of "but the popular theory is that they all were hurt because of how hard they were worked by Graham." It pisses me off not that he is calling out Wayne, but that there are so many theories about what causes Tommy John surgeries that it is not likely that workload is the ONLY cause.

(05-20-2014 12:43 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(05-20-2014 12:30 PM)Scooter Wrote:  Law got in a few Wayne Graham blasts today in two espn insider posts regarding the misses of the 2004 first round and redrafting the 2004 first round...

"Niemann might be done as a big leaguer, or at least as a starter, but he had more of a big league career than I expected given the medical reports on him out of Rice in which one doctor told us he had "the elbow of a 35-year-old pitcher.""

"Niemann proved the most valuable of the ill-fated trio of Rice first-rounders, all of whom were so badly overpitched by coach Wayne Graham that injuries shortened or derailed their pro careers."

"We had Humber rated the highest of the three Rice starters (Humber, Jeff Niemann and Wade Townsend) taken in the first round, liking his stuff, command and medical history the most of the group, but Rice coach Wayne Graham worked them all so hard on the way to a national championship that they all got hurt."

The thing that I dislike about this sort of writing is that it isn't a FACT that their injuries were due to overwork. If there was evidence that the workload was THE reason for the injuries, then go ahead and blast away, but until there is irrefutable proof that their careers were not as good as they "should" have been because of Wayne's pitching decisions, he should not have such a definitive tone to his writing.

Writing something along on the lines of "but the popular theory is that they all were hurt because of how hard they were worked by Graham." It pisses me off not that he is calling out Wayne, but that there are so many theories about what causes Tommy John surgeries that it is not likely that workload is the ONLY cause.

I agree, lots of unanswered questions. What was the workload of these 3 guys in high school? What was their workload playing summer ball? Did they have any injuries before becoming starting pitchers at Rice? Lots of factors at work other than just throwing a lot of pitches at Rice.

(05-20-2014 01:04 PM)mrbig Wrote:  

(05-20-2014 12:43 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(05-20-2014 12:30 PM)Scooter Wrote:  Law got in a few Wayne Graham blasts today in two espn insider posts regarding the misses of the 2004 first round and redrafting the 2004 first round...

"Niemann might be done as a big leaguer, or at least as a starter, but he had more of a big league career than I expected given the medical reports on him out of Rice in which one doctor told us he had "the elbow of a 35-year-old pitcher.""

"Niemann proved the most valuable of the ill-fated trio of Rice first-rounders, all of whom were so badly overpitched by coach Wayne Graham that injuries shortened or derailed their pro careers."

"We had Humber rated the highest of the three Rice starters (Humber, Jeff Niemann and Wade Townsend) taken in the first round, liking his stuff, command and medical history the most of the group, but Rice coach Wayne Graham worked them all so hard on the way to a national championship that they all got hurt."

The thing that I dislike about this sort of writing is that it isn't a FACT that their injuries were due to overwork. If there was evidence that the workload was THE reason for the injuries, then go ahead and blast away, but until there is irrefutable proof that their careers were not as good as they "should" have been because of Wayne's pitching decisions, he should not have such a definitive tone to his writing.

Writing something along on the lines of "but the popular theory is that they all were hurt because of how hard they were worked by Graham." It pisses me off not that he is calling out Wayne, but that there are so many theories about what causes Tommy John surgeries that it is not likely that workload is the ONLY cause.

I agree, lots of unanswered questions. What was the workload of these 3 guys in high school? What was their workload playing summer ball? Did they have any injuries before becoming starting pitchers at Rice? Lots of factors at work other than just throwing a lot of pitches at Rice.

Yup, especially with the recent findings about year-round ball as a youth.

Posted from my mobile device using the CSNbbs App

Big league teams spend a lot of money checking out the health of their top draft picks. All our guys were healthy when they turned pro. Blaming Wayne or anyone else for what happened later is crazy. Dave Duncan is supposed to be one of the all-time great pitching coaches, but Chris Carpenter and Adam Wainwright among many others had Tommy John under his watch. Don't think I've heard much about him abusing pitchers.

Interesting article on the topic: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-...ant-solve/

Exec summary: we've got more data than ever and still don't know squat.

(05-20-2014 04:20 PM)bobreinhold1 Wrote:  Big league teams spend a lot of money checking out the health of their top draft picks. All our guys were healthy when they turned pro. Blaming Wayne or anyone else for what happened later is crazy. Dave Duncan is supposed to be one of the all-time great pitching coaches, but Chris Carpenter and Adam Wainwright among many others had Tommy John under his watch. Don't think I've heard much about him abusing pitchers.

I don't think blaming Wayne is crazy if you have ample evidence to support the claim, but you're right, doctors evaluated and cleared them, and the obviously did not have any injury issues.

I more understand his argument about Lemond, since he can point to few hitters faced rapidly changing to a lot of pitchers faced, but even then there are other factors that could contribute to injury. Overuse is a serious concern, but he has fetishized it to gain readers.

(05-20-2014 04:29 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  ...doctors evaluated and cleared them, and the obviously did not have any injury issues.

I don't think this is particularly accurate for a couple reasons.

First, "cleared" and "did not have any injury issues" are probably bad phrases to describe pitcher injury risk. Lots of pitchers are going to have some wear-and-tear. Few will have the kind of injury that needs immediate attention before a player can even take the field. Most health evaluations will deal with risk of injury. Some guys will have more wear-and-tear and be at higher risk. Other guys will have lower risk.

Second, just because one doctor says a player isn't too big of a health risk doesn't mean other doctors aren't telling other teams to stay away. It only takes one team either deciding that the risk is fairly low or that the upside is worth ignoring significant risk to have a pitcher with some arm issues get drafted high. So just because a guy gets drafted high doesn't mean the pitcher had a clean bill of health or that he wasn't perceived to have an increased risk of injury.

I'm just speaking in generalities, obviously. I don't know anything about the specifics for any particular pitcher.

That's the point. No one knows for sure, so blaming one person without any evidence is foolish. I've never been able to get a handle on all this. Bob Feller came to the big leagues at 17 and routinely threw around 200 pitches a game. Now we baby Strausberg and Fernandez and they still come down with arm troubles. Guys like Dizzy Dean an Satchel Paige pitched all season and then went barnstorming all winter. I remember an 18 inning game where Warren Spahn and Juan Marichal pitched complete games, ending with Willie Mays walkoff homerun.

And for KLaw to continue to bring up-- and harp upon-- something that happened 10 years ago, and for which Coach Graham changed his approach ever since, is just bush league...and totally irresponsible on Law's part.

And, again, how Wayne used the Big 3 back in 2003 - '04 was no different than how the other top programs used their weekend starters. In fact, how Stanford's Marquess used Hudgens and Nebraska's (now A&M's) Childress used Jobu Chamberlain was even worse.

FFS, does anyone remember how Roger Clemens and Greg Swindell were used (at Texas)? They'd pitch a complete game on Friday and come back for four innings of relief on Sunday (literalists beware).

edit: clarified that I meant at Texas for the CWS. ... someone really should've warned the clubs that drafted those guys about the pitcher abuse that went on.

(05-21-2014 01:36 AM)I45owl Wrote:  FFS, does anyone remember how Roger Clemens and Greg Swindell were used (at Texas)? They'd pitch a complete game on Friday and come back for four innings of relief on Sunday (literalists beware).

edit: clarified that I meant at Texas for the CWS. ... someone really should've warned the clubs that drafted those guys about the pitcher abuse that went on.

I thought Wayne ruined them at San Jac. They were only able to last 15-20 years in the bigs.

(05-20-2014 04:41 PM)mrbig Wrote:  

(05-20-2014 04:29 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  ...doctors evaluated and cleared them, and the obviously did not have any injury issues.

I don't think this is particularly accurate for a couple reasons.

First, "cleared" and "did not have any injury issues" are probably bad phrases to describe pitcher injury risk. Lots of pitchers are going to have some wear-and-tear. Few will have the kind of injury that needs immediate attention before a player can even take the field. Most health evaluations will deal with risk of injury. Some guys will have more wear-and-tear and be at higher risk. Other guys will have lower risk.

Second, just because one doctor says a player isn't too big of a health risk doesn't mean other doctors aren't telling other teams to stay away. It only takes one team either deciding that the risk is fairly low or that the upside is worth ignoring significant risk to have a pitcher with some arm issues get drafted high. So just because a guy gets drafted high doesn't mean the pitcher had a clean bill of health or that he wasn't perceived to have an increased risk of injury.

I'm just speaking in generalities, obviously. I don't know anything about the specifics for any particular pitcher.

You're right, although since the big three all went within the first eight picks we know at least three of the top eight teams weren't overly concerned about their previous usage.

Also 2 of the other 5 pitchers drafted in the top 10 had major surgery within a year of being drafted. Anyway, no need for me to pile on. I think the point is made.

(05-21-2014 10:07 AM)NicevilleWRC Wrote:  You're right, although since the big three all went within the first eight picks we know at least three of the top eight teams weren't overly concerned about their previous usage.

And had enough concern that other teams felt unconcerned that they could not hold off until the sandwich or second round.

(05-21-2014 11:12 AM)texd Wrote:  

(05-21-2014 10:07 AM)NicevilleWRC Wrote:  You're right, although since the big three all went within the first eight picks we know at least three of the top eight teams weren't overly concerned about their previous usage.

And had enough concern that other teams felt unconcerned that they could not hold off until the sandwich or second round.

FWIW, this was not the point I was trying to make.

We don't know anything about what the drafting teams thought about the Big 3 or what teams that passed on them thought. All we know is there draft position. I was not trying to make the point that teams were not concerned. I was not trying to make the point that teams were overly concerned. I was just making the point that risk of injury (or health concerns) is a more important concept than actual health at the moment they were drafted. And that risk ultimately needs to get balanced with a player's upside, likelihood of reaching his upside, and many other factors. You can't simply point to draft position and ascribe value to the many different factors that went into a team's decision to draft that player at that time.

So just because a team drafts a player in the top 10 doesn't mean there aren't health concerns. It doesn't even mean there aren't huge health concerns. It just means that for that one team, those health concerns are overshadowed by the other, more positive factors.

At the same time, just because one team's physicians have extreme health concerns (which is what Klaw has written that the Blue Jays' doctors said about Niemann's health reports) doesn't mean other teams have the same opinion on a player's health concerns.

The fact that the Big 3 were drafted in the top 10 tells us nothing about how most MLB teams viewed their health concerns or risk of injury. It also doesn't tell us how any individual team viewed these players. It tells us nothing other than that any risks or concerns that might have been present were outweighed by other factors for the team that drafted each.

At the same time, Klaw writing about the Blue Jays' concerns tells us nothing about how other teams physicians' viewed these players. The Blue Jays could easily have been on the risk-averse end of the spectrum or had physicians that believed there was a higher risk based on their review of the medical records than other teams' physicians (because all doctors certainly will not agree when you are talking about gray areas like risk).

We just can't read too much into a single, isolated data point.

(05-21-2014 11:50 AM)mrbig Wrote:  

(05-21-2014 11:12 AM)texd Wrote:  

(05-21-2014 10:07 AM)NicevilleWRC Wrote:  You're right, although since the big three all went within the first eight picks we know at least three of the top eight teams weren't overly concerned about their previous usage.

And had enough concern that other teams felt unconcerned that they could not hold off until the sandwich or second round.

FWIW, this was not the point I was trying to make.

...

We just can't read too much into a single, isolated data point.

I understand what you're saying, and you're right we can't definitively say anything based on where they were drafted, I was just pointing out we have at least three data points (four if you include the Blue Jays).

Law was at it again yesterday in his NL team-by-team draft breakdown. I know someone mentioned the 'Streisand Effect' in the MLB Draft thread--and I tend to agree that Rice may not want to pursue anything publicly--but still, this guy never quits. Were his media credentials denied at Reckling at some point?

"Zech Lemond (Round 3) was a great value on day two, suffering from the well-deserved reputation that the Rice baseball program has for wearing out pitchers; Lemond missed a little time with an elbow injury but an MRI was clean and he came back healthy right before the draft. Lemond projects as a starter, 92-95 with a plus curveball, needing to improve his changeup and build up more innings -- safely, not the Rice way, which involved having him start the year in the pen and immediately throwing 110-plus pitches as a starter with no transition."

Insider link: http://insider.espn.go.com/blog/mlb-draft/post?id=2032

(06-10-2014 10:17 AM)Scooter Wrote:  Law was at it again yesterday in his NL team-by-team draft breakdown. I know someone mentioned the 'Streisand Effect' in the MLB Draft thread--and I tend to agree that Rice may not want to pursue anything publicly--but still, this guy never quits. Were his media credentials denied at Reckling at some point?

"Zech Lemond (Round 3) was a great value on day two, suffering from the well-deserved reputation that the Rice baseball program has for wearing out pitchers; Lemond missed a little time with an elbow injury but an MRI was clean and he came back healthy right before the draft. Lemond projects as a starter, 92-95 with a plus curveball, needing to improve his changeup and build up more innings -- safely, not the Rice way, which involved having him start the year in the pen and immediately throwing 110-plus pitches as a starter with no transition."

Insider link: http://insider.espn.go.com/blog/mlb-draft/post?id=2032

The guy is absolutely pathetic...and he did this latest ditty, which IMO was even worse than his tweet last week immediately after Zech was drafted, AFTER receiving an official letter from Dr. K late last week (on which I've received confirmation from a very reliable source).

I just sent an e-mail to Joe as an FYI, in case he hadn't yet seen KLaw's latest slander attack.