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Law on Pitcher Abuse at UNC
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gsloth Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Law on Pitcher Abuse at UNC
What I will say is "unnatural" about the throwing motion isn't that we can do it, but the stresses it puts on the body - shoulder, elbow, and otherwise. I think I saw where, in order to throw a fastball, a baseball pitcher is essentially sending the forearm through at an angular rate of approximately 720 degrees (arc) per second. You ask me, that's pretty hard to get my head around (spinning my forearm twice around the elbow in 1 second). It just doesn't feel natural, though the body can certain tolerate it for a long period of time.

My go to guy for learning about this stuff (especially on the training end) is Eric Cressey and his work, and they had a follow up article timed around the latest "rash" of surgeries.

http://www.ericcressey.com/long-term-bas...ent-part-1

The chart about youth and HS UCL surgery rate out of all UCL surgeries is scary.
05-08-2014 03:01 PM
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75src Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Law on Pitcher Abuse at UNC
In the old days they did not rely on pitch counts since the decision to yank a pitcher was based upon him looking tired.

(05-08-2014 08:26 AM)NicevilleWRC Wrote:  Meanwhile there's yet to be conclusive evidence that high pitch counts lead to injuries. Lots and lots of anecdotes are thrown around but no comprehensive study has shown high pitch counts lead to injuries. After all, there are plenty of countering anecdotes like Strasburg, who could not have been more carefully handled in Washington.

We don't even track pitch counts accurately - warm-up pitches between innings and in the bullpen still stress the body, but because we don't count those we act like they don't matter. If I was inclined I'd go look up the parliament post by a former player that said one of our former pitchers probably threw over 200 pitches one day if you include the ~10 or so before each inning, even though only ~130 were counted because they occurred with a batter in the box.

How can we even start to argue about this when we base our arguments on bad data when even good data might not be meaningful?
05-08-2014 11:08 PM
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CrabCake Away
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Post: #43
RE: Law on Pitcher Abuse at UNC
How much does "type" of pitch weigh into the decision to pull a pitcher? I would imagine you can't go on pitch count alone, especially given today's technology that is available to assess ball speed and placement.
05-08-2014 11:56 PM
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waltgreenberg Online
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Post: #44
RE: Law on Pitcher Abuse at UNC
And another one goes down-- this time the Friday ace of UNLV, requiring Tommy John Surgery, right on the heals of the Jeff Hoffman TJS announcemnt...

http://www.baseballamerica.com/college/u...n-surgery/
05-10-2014 11:11 AM
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dragon2owl Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Law on Pitcher Abuse at UNC
Quote:Zechariah Lemond ‏@ZechLemond 39m
I'm a competitor and have always asked to pitched, no one forced me to pitch while hurt because I've always said Im healthy

Rumors about me being forced to pitch while hurt are false, I compete for a reason because I want to for me and no one else.

Oh yea and for the teammates beside me.
(This post was last modified: 05-10-2014 11:42 PM by dragon2owl.)
05-10-2014 11:39 PM
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grol Offline
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Post: #46
RE: Law on Pitcher Abuse at UNC
05-13-2014 07:49 AM
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texd Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Law on Pitcher Abuse at UNC
(05-13-2014 07:49 AM)grol Wrote:  Rise in TJ surgeries

I don't doubt that we've seen a rise in injuries, but this chart is pretty worthless. Charting the frequency of any newly developed surgery is going to look EXACTLY like this as it sees improved outcomes, advances by marginal improvements, gains acceptance in the medical community, and is adopted by more surgeons. Then it will eventually have a similar dropoff when a new and better procedure comes along.

Now if the data were simply "ulnar cruciate ligament injuries" by year, then it would be more informative, but even then, going back to periods when diagnostic imaging or other diagnostic techniques weren't as precise would be of little value.

(And being first developed 40 years ago doesn't make a surgery old necessarily. There are a number of eye surgeries that were first done in the 1960s but only really took off in the 90's/2000s because they required techniques and technology to catch up with the novelty of the surgery before they could gain widespread medical acceptance.)
(This post was last modified: 05-13-2014 10:35 AM by texd.)
05-13-2014 10:31 AM
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Steven Herce Offline
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Post: #48
RE: Law on Pitcher Abuse at UNC
(05-08-2014 12:51 PM)I45owl Wrote:  
(05-08-2014 12:29 PM)At Ease Wrote:  Another article, sorry if already linked and I missed it:
Overuse of young pitchers fueling MLB's Tommy John surgery problem

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mlb/new...n-taillon/

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mlb/new...n-taillon/ Wrote:First, here is a basic understanding of how the arm works. It is "accepted wisdom" that pitchers break down because the act of throwing a baseball is "an unnatural motion." That is flat out bunk. The oldest skeleton ever found, the Nariokotome skeleton, which is about 1.5 million years old, showed the biomechanical adaptation for overhand throwing found in the modern Homo sapiens. Man has been throwing spears and rocks and such for eons.

If Keith Law gets to blaming Wayne Graham for that guy's injuries, then we need to picket his house...

I must wonder whether the Nariokotome were making hundreds of throws per day at maximum effort.
05-13-2014 10:50 AM
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texd Offline
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Post: #49
RE: Law on Pitcher Abuse at UNC
(05-13-2014 10:50 AM)Steven Herce Wrote:  
(05-08-2014 12:51 PM)I45owl Wrote:  
(05-08-2014 12:29 PM)At Ease Wrote:  Another article, sorry if already linked and I missed it:
Overuse of young pitchers fueling MLB's Tommy John surgery problem

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mlb/new...n-taillon/

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mlb/new...n-taillon/ Wrote:First, here is a basic understanding of how the arm works. It is "accepted wisdom" that pitchers break down because the act of throwing a baseball is "an unnatural motion." That is flat out bunk. The oldest skeleton ever found, the Nariokotome skeleton, which is about 1.5 million years old, showed the biomechanical adaptation for overhand throwing found in the modern Homo sapiens. Man has been throwing spears and rocks and such for eons.

If Keith Law gets to blaming Wayne Graham for that guy's injuries, then we need to picket his house...

I must wonder whether the Nariokotome were making hundreds of throws per day at maximum effort.

Depends on how bad their aim was.
05-13-2014 11:14 AM
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ausowl Offline
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Post: #50
RE: Law on Pitcher Abuse at UNC
(05-10-2014 11:39 PM)dragon2owl Wrote:  
Quote:Zechariah Lemond ‏@ZechLemond 39m
I'm a competitor and have always asked to pitched, no one forced me to pitch while hurt because I've always said Im healthy

Rumors about me being forced to pitch while hurt are false, I compete for a reason because I want to for me and no one else.

Oh yea and for the teammates beside me.

Exhibit A for pitch counts and coaches and trainers making the final decision.
05-13-2014 11:27 AM
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TJS_NYC Offline
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Post: #51
RE: Law on Pitcher Abuse at UNC
(05-13-2014 11:14 AM)texd Wrote:  
(05-13-2014 10:50 AM)Steven Herce Wrote:  
(05-08-2014 12:51 PM)I45owl Wrote:  
(05-08-2014 12:29 PM)At Ease Wrote:  Another article, sorry if already linked and I missed it:
Overuse of young pitchers fueling MLB's Tommy John surgery problem

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mlb/new...n-taillon/

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mlb/new...n-taillon/ Wrote:First, here is a basic understanding of how the arm works. It is "accepted wisdom" that pitchers break down because the act of throwing a baseball is "an unnatural motion." That is flat out bunk. The oldest skeleton ever found, the Nariokotome skeleton, which is about 1.5 million years old, showed the biomechanical adaptation for overhand throwing found in the modern Homo sapiens. Man has been throwing spears and rocks and such for eons.

If Keith Law gets to blaming Wayne Graham for that guy's injuries, then we need to picket his house...

I must wonder whether the Nariokotome were making hundreds of throws per day at maximum effort.

Depends on how bad their aim was.

Or how fast their targets were...
05-13-2014 01:44 PM
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I45owl Offline
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Post: #52
RE: Law on Pitcher Abuse at UNC
(05-13-2014 01:44 PM)TJS_NYC Wrote:  
(05-13-2014 11:14 AM)texd Wrote:  
(05-13-2014 10:50 AM)Steven Herce Wrote:  
(05-08-2014 12:51 PM)I45owl Wrote:  
(05-08-2014 12:29 PM)At Ease Wrote:  Another article, sorry if already linked and I missed it:
Overuse of young pitchers fueling MLB's Tommy John surgery problem

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mlb/new...n-taillon/

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mlb/new...n-taillon/ Wrote:First, here is a basic understanding of how the arm works. It is "accepted wisdom" that pitchers break down because the act of throwing a baseball is "an unnatural motion." That is flat out bunk. The oldest skeleton ever found, the Nariokotome skeleton, which is about 1.5 million years old, showed the biomechanical adaptation for overhand throwing found in the modern Homo sapiens. Man has been throwing spears and rocks and such for eons.

If Keith Law gets to blaming Wayne Graham for that guy's injuries, then we need to picket his house...

I must wonder whether the Nariokotome were making hundreds of throws per day at maximum effort.

Depends on how bad their aim was.

Or And how fast their targets were...

And how hungry they were...
05-13-2014 04:52 PM
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grol Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Law on Pitcher Abuse at UNC
05-15-2014 07:47 AM
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texd Offline
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Post: #54
RE: Law on Pitcher Abuse at UNC
So he's suggesting that maybe MLB teams shouldn't draft HS pitchers because elbow injuries are both inevitable and unpredictable, and if the teams wait 'til they go to college they'll get to see which ones are going to blow their elbows out? KLaw must be losing his **** reading this.
(This post was last modified: 05-15-2014 10:55 AM by texd.)
05-15-2014 10:54 AM
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grol Offline
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Post: #55
RE: Law on Pitcher Abuse at UNC
(05-15-2014 10:54 AM)texd Wrote:  So he's suggesting that maybe MLB teams shouldn't draft HS pitchers because elbow injuries are both inevitable and unpredictable, and if the teams wait 'til they go to college they'll get to see which ones are going to blow their elbows out? KLaw must be losing his **** reading this.

Right: Go to college young pitchers (so that we have 3 more years to see how durable your arms are) before we pay you the big bucks.

Of course, in a previous article (that you may have commented on) he seemed to be saying that less good players would be going to college...
05-15-2014 11:00 AM
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gsloth Offline
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Post: #56
RE: Law on Pitcher Abuse at UNC
Maybe this will cause Keith Law's head to explode. 194 pitches!

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/109356...14-innings
05-15-2014 12:39 PM
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At Ease Offline
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Post: #57
RE: Law on Pitcher Abuse at UNC
(05-15-2014 12:39 PM)gsloth Wrote:  Maybe this will cause Keith Law's head to explode. 194 pitches!

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/109356...14-innings

Quote:@DFosnacht5

People just don't understand. I'm not a ace pitcher, I'm a infielder who pitches every now and then. Not a prospect ruining there career

With those circumstances, I think the coach was fine to leave him in and congrats to the kid on an epic performance.
05-15-2014 12:51 PM
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temchugh Offline
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Post: #58
RE: Law on Pitcher Abuse at UNC
(05-15-2014 12:39 PM)gsloth Wrote:  Maybe this will cause Keith Law's head to explode. 194 pitches!

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/109356...14-innings

High school pitcher. The comments say that he is not a college or pro prospect. If that is true, I have a lot less problem with the pitch count.
05-15-2014 12:57 PM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #59
RE: Law on Pitcher Abuse at UNC
(05-15-2014 12:39 PM)gsloth Wrote:  Maybe this will cause Keith Law's head to explode. 194 pitches!

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/109356...14-innings

It did. He was freaking out about it on Twitter (rightly so).
05-15-2014 02:10 PM
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I45owl Offline
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Post: #60
RE: Law on Pitcher Abuse at UNC
I can remember a UH pitcher going about 15 or so innings against Rice in the late 80s/early 90s, IIRC.

In other news, my wife is working with someone who was coached by David Hall in high school, apparently before he came to Rice. I say apparently because I asked her how old he was and got "I don't know". I'll probably meet him sometime in the next couple of weeks and get a better picture....
05-15-2014 09:52 PM
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