for LAX, then why in the world would you not invite Boston University and Boston College for Hockey and Cornell for Hockey and Wrestling? With the BTN, the B1G surely has the profit margins to excite these universities' programs.

BU and BC are hockey royalty, and because the ACC does not include ice hockey BC should not have any issues with the ACC.

Similarly, Cornell should not have serious issues with the Ivy League because it does not sponsor these sports, though all six Ivy League schools that play collegiate hockey play in the ECAC, and six Ivy League schools compete in wrestling in the EIWA. Cornell is a power in ice hockey and wrestling for those not familiar.

All three are large research institutions and would bring a lot of Boston and New York eyeballs to the BTN.

As an additional plus, ND might no longer find Hockey East all that appealing without the two Boston schools and might consider putting their hockey team in the B1G while keeping all other sports except football in the ACC.

Why not?

(05-06-2014 11:29 PM)Lurker Above Wrote:  for LAX, then why in the world would you not invite Boston University and Boston College for Hockey and Cornell for Hockey and Wrestling? With the BTN, the B1G surely has the profit margins to excite these universities' programs.

BU and BC are hockey royalty, and because the ACC does not include ice hockey BC should not have any issues with the ACC.

Similarly, Cornell should not have serious issues with the Ivy League because it does not sponsor these sports, though all six Ivy League schools that play collegiate hockey play in the ECAC, and six Ivy League schools compete in wrestling in the EIWA. Cornell is a power in ice hockey and wrestling for those not familiar.

All three are large research institutions and would bring a lot of Boston and New York eyeballs to the BTN.

As an additional plus, ND might no longer find Hockey East all that appealing without the two Boston schools and might consider putting their hockey team in the B1G while keeping all other sports except football in the ACC.

Why not?

Hockey is completely fine as is --- I'm happy my school (PSU) started the sport but I am sympathetic toward how our starting the sport caused wholesale changes in the Western College Hockey world. Changes that are not net-positive for many schools (mainly those schools that are in the present-day WCHA).

Inviting BU and BC into the B1G tournament would cause similar large changes in the Eastern College Hockey world. There's no reason to disrupt Hockey East like the CCHA and WCHA were disrupted.

As for wrestling, the B1G already has "numbers" there as all 12 schools sponsor the sport. It's not at all like lacrosse, where we need Johns Hopkins just to get to the 6 needed for an automatic bid to the NCAA (U-M, PSU, OSU, Rutgers, Maryland being the other 5). Cornell's a fine wrestling school, but I don't think we mutually need each other --- the EIWA is a pretty good fit for Cornell right now.

To another point, does Cornell really bring a lot of NYC eye-balls? Very good school and all, and many of their alums end up in NYC. But would that many watch BTN for wrestling and hockey?

I wouldn't mind Boston University as a hockey and Olympics member if that is possible. Boston College? No thanks.

They would want full access. Nothing against the Jesuits but, they don't fit.

Don't feel bad, Nittany. Penn State's addition was welcome and sorely needed in college hockey, which was badly in need of a shakeup. The conferences were generally just too large in general for a sport that only fields about sixty teams. And the WCHA was one of the worst-run organizations in college sports. Barry Alvarez was desperate to get out of the league, even threatening a move to the CCHA a few years back.

because the appeal of b10 lax/hockey would be lost to b10 fans if you dilute the product with non b10 schools

JHU is the exception not the trend. they are a traditional lax power, a rival of UMD, and an excellent research brand. the only reason the b10 did it is because they had only 5 lax teams and needed 6 to start a conference.

(05-07-2014 12:07 AM)moo Wrote:  Don't feel bad, Nittany. Penn State's addition was welcome and sorely needed in college hockey, which was badly in need of a shakeup. The conferences were generally just too large in general for a sport that only fields about sixty teams. And the WCHA was one of the worst-run organizations in college sports. Barry Alvarez was desperate to get out of the league, even threatening a move to the CCHA a few years back.

I love psu but the hockey move came at the worst time.

psu needs to be heading in the direction of a BB-FB school not a FB-only school.

instead psu further buried BB on the winter sports food chain with the hockey move ==> but i can't blame them for accepting a 100 mill donation.

My two cents is that that 1) it would create issues with scheduling and 2) the conference has been around since 1896 and has had 1 affiliate member.
As far as the schedules, you'd be killing the non-conference schedules for the heavyweight in each sport. In Hockey (at least in current format) every new conf member equals 4 more non-conf games off of the schedule. If I'm Minnesota I want to play North Dakota and all of the Minnesota schools (5 of them) every year. Those will get squeezed. Similarly for Johns Hopkins, they've been independent forever. Every mandatory game on their schedule means one less traditional rival (Princeton, Syracuse, Virginia, Carolina, UMBC, Towson, Navy, Loyola). To sum this argument up, by keeping the conference small you get a total round robin conference without sacrificing traditional rivals in the non-conf slate.
My second point speaks for itself. It may not feel like it, but the B1G leadership is very traditional and slow to change membership. I'm mean how long did the league stay at 11? Hopkins fit in very nicely because 1. They are excellent at lacrosse. 2. The have been the #1 research school for the past 1000 years (by a country mile). 3. The B1G knew the importance of Lacrosse to Maryland and needed to keep the Terps happy. 4. Lacrosse is the fastest growing sport in America for the past decade. 5. Last but not least, Lacrosse is great spring content for the Big Ten Network.

(05-07-2014 12:12 AM)Big Ron Buckeye Wrote:  My two cents is that that 1) it would create issues with scheduling and 2) the conference has been around since 1896 and has had 1 affiliate member.
As far as the schedules, you'd be killing the non-conference schedules for the heavyweight in each sport. In Hockey (at least in current format) every new conf member equals 4 more non-conf games off of the schedule. If I'm Minnesota I want to play North Dakota and all of the Minnesota schools (5 of them) every year. Those will get squeezed. Similarly for Johns Hopkins, they've been independent forever. Every mandatory game on their schedule means one less traditional rival (Princeton, Syracuse, Virginia, Carolina, UMBC, Towson, Navy, Loyola). To sum this argument up, by keeping the conference small you get a total round robin conference without sacrificing traditional rivals in the non-conf slate.
My second point speaks for itself. It may not feel like it, but the B1G leadership is very traditional and slow to change membership. I'm mean how long did the league stay at 11? Hopkins fit in very nicely because 1. They are excellent at lacrosse. 2. The have been the #1 research school for the past 1000 years (by a country mile). 3. The B1G knew the importance of Lacrosse to Maryland and needed to keep the Terps happy. 4. Lacrosse is the fastest growing sport in America for the past decade. 5. Last but not least, Lacrosse is great spring content for the Big Ten Network.

very important point. JHU is the notre dame of lax. they still are not completely sold on the b10 move and as i understand it they are contracted for only 5 years in the b10 and have yet to fully commit on a permanent basis. clearly it is not a case of JHU doing naked cartwheels in the street when they got the call from the b10.

#4 is also a solid point. the acc, sec, & pac12 have all taken some rather extreme measures/sacrifices to protect their new additions/ease their transition. JHU seems like an obvious example of the b10 doing this for UMD.

(05-07-2014 12:12 AM)Big Ron Buckeye Wrote:  Hopkins fit in very nicely because 1. They are excellent at lacrosse. 2. The have been the #1 research school for the past 1000 years (by a country mile). 3. The B1G knew the importance of Lacrosse to Maryland and needed to keep the Terps happy. 4. Lacrosse is the fastest growing sport in America for the past decade. 5. Last but not least, Lacrosse is great spring content for the Big Ten Network.

This is the thing ... Big Ten hockey is a fine addition for the BTN, since there is a definite drop off once FB season is over with fans who watch FB but not BBall. However BBall is still the main one, driving a larger share of BTN value than it does for the tier 1 contract, and the six team hockey conference gives the BTN as much extra live content as interest in hockey in Big Ten schools justifies.

LAX is a fine addition, especially given that Big Ten baseball is perennially weak given the disadvantages northern schools face with the season and the fact that the Big Ten is located right in the heart of the pre-WWII MLB footprint, and the LAX conference season will be played entirely after the Big Ten BBall and Hockey conference tournaments have finished, moving Big Ten BBall and Hockey media values off of the BTN and onto NCAA tournament contracts ... but John Hopkins is a unique case in terms of being a genuine blue-blood in the sport and also having lacrosse as their only Division 1 sport, housed in a school that not only meets minimum Big Ten academic expectations, but improves Big Ten academic standing.

Even with John Hopkins retaining their home games, their away trips in Big Ten LAX play give the conference instant credibility in the sport. Plus the other really big rivalry in the conference is an "echo" rivalry, feeding of the intensity of feeling about The Game, while Maryland and Johns Hopkins is a rivalry that has grown up inside LAX.

And the Terps/Jays rivalry also puts the spotlight on another aspect of Big Ten Hockey, which is that the Big Ten already has genuine long-time hockey power schools. That's a big part of why the sixth Big Ten school establishing a hockey program sparked such dramatic conference realignment. You go to affiliates to fill in something that your conference lacks ... and the needs that JHU satisfies for Big Ten LAX are already satisfied by the Big Ten membership in Big Ten Hockey.

... it escapes me how the Northeast has not found a solution to solidify its major schools and programs into a major conference. So many good schools with so many good programs. Is it a public vs. private thing?

It's Johns Hopkins, not John Hopkins.

(05-07-2014 01:24 PM)bigblueblindness Wrote:  ... it escapes me how the Northeast has not found a solution to solidify its major schools and programs into a major conference. So many good schools with so many good programs. Is it a public vs. private thing?

Public v Private and FB v BBall ... the original dominant Northeastern FB schools were the Ivy League, and they mostly refused to play the water down academic standards game for scholarship athletes beyond the provision of intensive tutoring to athletes to try to keep them eligible ... so they've been fading in prominence ever since the 50's. Meanwhile the "Western Conference" that emerged in the late 1800's to compete against the Ivy League schools mostly (bar UChicago) made the decision to keep playing the game (though with the academic smoke cover of the CIC).

Add the fact that Northeastern FB swings below its weight in terms of player development, perhaps because of the historical presence of pro sporting leagues prevented the emergence of a big "Friday Night Lights" culture, while a greater diversity of youth sports than in many parts of the country sees some athletic talent going in different directions that would head into football if they grew up in Alabama or Texas or Ohio.

I think there really was one chance for a solid Northeastern conference, if the Big East had established its BBall powerhouse but also found a way to include Penn State in its FB side.

(05-07-2014 01:38 PM)Hitch Wrote:  It's Johns Hopkins, not John Hopkins.

Can we just call him Johnny, to avoid the confusion? No? How about Jay?

Does it matter that BC and BU hockey would have zero interest joining the B10?

(05-07-2014 02:02 PM)wavefan12 Wrote:  Does it matter that BC and BU hockey would have zero interest joining the B10?

My thoughts too. Hockey East is widely considered the best hockey conference in the country.

UCONN would leave in a hot second though if it meant a full B1G membership.

(05-07-2014 02:11 PM)HuskyU Wrote:  

(05-07-2014 02:02 PM)wavefan12 Wrote:  Does it matter that BC and BU hockey would have zero interest joining the B10?

My thoughts too. Hockey East is widely considered the best hockey conference in the country.

UCONN would leave in a hot second though if it meant a full B1G membership.

Absolutely! Have to get the AAU status, I really think that was one of the soft reasons TU got into the AAC because of Cowen.

(05-07-2014 02:02 PM)wavefan12 Wrote:  Does it matter that BC and BU hockey would have zero interest joining the B10?

Doesn't change the answer to the question, at least, given that Big Ten Hockey would have zero interest in adding them, but does firm up the answer to the original question ...

... why not add BC and BU Hockey? Because Big Ten Hockey wouldn't benefit from inviting them and BC and BU Hockey wouldn't benefit from accepting.

(05-07-2014 02:25 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(05-07-2014 02:02 PM)wavefan12 Wrote:  Does it matter that BC and BU hockey would have zero interest joining the B10?

Doesn't change the answer to the question, at least, given that Big Ten Hockey would have zero interest in adding them, but does firm up the answer to the original question ...

... why not add BC and BU Hockey? Because Big Ten Hockey wouldn't benefit from inviting them and BC and BU Hockey wouldn't benefit from accepting.

The B10 needs members and those are two elite programs, I think the net benefit would be positive to the conference. Hockey is a different animal and grabbing BC/BU would decimate the BE thus elevating the B10, but I do agree that focusing on regional hockey adds would probably be better for the B10 as there are plenty of great midwestern schools.

I can all but assure you that BC/BU would have zero interest in the B10, there isn't one compelling reason. They already are successful and sell tons of tickets in a long established regionally supported league.

(05-07-2014 03:18 PM)wavefan12 Wrote:  The B10 needs members and ....

Except that they don't. If one or two Big Ten members add hockey, they'll of course play in the conference league, but the western schools have clear reasons to prefer a six team Big Ten Hockey to an eight team Big Ten Hockey.

(05-07-2014 01:24 PM)bigblueblindness Wrote:  ... it escapes me how the Northeast has not found a solution to solidify its major schools and programs into a major conference. So many good schools with so many good programs. Is it a public vs. private thing?

1. large number of private schools

-already filled the need for more colleges

-their political influence prevented/weakened any public schools

-an abundance of schools particularly small publics/private schools made the development of conferences harder.

2. for economic & political reasons + the lack of established conferences/large state schools the northeast never produced a football craze in the same way that football culture developed in other parts of the country.

-lack of ample recruiting

-lack of ample fan support

3. having their best programs deemphasize sports

colgate, syracuse, cornell, army, navy, harvard, penn, yale, princeton, & pitt were all nationally relevant programs from the northeast in the 1910s through 1950s. a region simply can not start over from scratch after having 6 of its ten best programs drop down and 2 more being service academies. that is like the midwest losing michigan, osu, msu, purdue, IU, & wisconsin and expecting the leftover b10 schools + the mac to be on par with the SEC, pac, & acc.

in every other region we saw was that in general the strongest programs in a particular region in the 1890s or 1930s usually continued on to be the strongest programs in that specific region up to today

The Johns Hopkins addition made sense for many reasons:

- Although private, JHU is a research powerhouse, something valued by the B1G.
- Baltimore and DC are markets with weak connections to the B1G that make selling the BTN difficult. JHU Lax gives local cable providers another reason to pick up the BTN at full price.
- It gives the B1G an autobid to the NCAA Lax tourney, which the B1G definitely requires.

While an associate member in hockey could, hypothetically, provide the same kind of value, the B1G has no connection to Boston or New England and even adding BC and BU hockey is unlikely to get the BTN added to any cable systems at anything other than a nominal price. Last time I checked, NESN was paying $0 for the rights to Hockey East games. NESN picks up the cost of production and provides free advertising for the league.

If there were an appropriate affiliate member in the NYC or Philly area, where the B1G has existing presence, that might make sense. Someone like NYU would be HUGE if they would create from scratch a D1 hockey and/or lacrosse program.