(02-22-2015 07:23 PM)Bearcat04 Wrote:  Mick is constantly praising his assistants for finding guys, handling their recruitment, and ultimately selling him on why they deserve an offer.

Head coaches do that all the time. At the end of the day, prospects are signing on to play for Cronin and the program he's built. The head guy will always make the call on who to recruit, who to take commitments from, recruiting strategies and so on. Those aren't the assistants' recruits, they're his.

(02-22-2015 07:28 PM)Coopdaddy67 Wrote:  

(02-22-2015 07:23 PM)Bearcat04 Wrote:  Mick is constantly praising his assistants for finding guys, handling their recruitment, and ultimately selling him on why they deserve an offer.

Head coaches do that all the time. At the end of the day, prospects are signing on to play for Cronin and the program he's built. The head guy will always make the call on who to recruit, who to take commitments from, recruiting strategies and so on. Those aren't the assistants' recruits, they're his.

Sure. All the time. While a Cincy assist FB coach just got canned last summer. And why? Cause he wasn't bringing in the recruits. Of course coops response will be "that's football, it's different".

Uh, football is different. Congrats on the prediction...and even being right!

.

(02-22-2015 07:05 PM)Coopdaddy67 Wrote:  Without Mick Cronin, I'm surprised Huggins doesn't wet himself during games at WVU.

The head coach matters in basketball more than any other sport. Stop trying to give Cronin Huggins' credit. It would be like giving one of Cronin's assistants credit for the guys they "bring to the table". Or more accurately, are instructed to bring to the table.

Do you think it was a coincidence how much recruiting fell off at UC when Mick left for Louisville?

Also, Huggs isn't exactly tearing it up at WVU since Beilein's players left. Hasn't he missed the tournament 2 years in a row?

(02-22-2015 08:46 PM)Overrated Wrote:  Do you think it was a coincidence how much recruiting fell off at UC when Mick left for Louisville?

Also, Huggs isn't exactly tearing it up at WVU since Beilein's players left. Hasn't he missed the tournament 2 years in a row?

I think it was a number of factors. Go compare UC's recruiting classes post-Cronin under Huggins to those Cronin's gotten since he's taken over.

Huggins' recruiting at WVU was fine in the Big East, as their final four team had Jones, Bryant and Ebanks. What do all of those guys have in common? New York. Can't recruit the same guys as he could before, as a lot of them want to stay on the east coast. Similar situation UC would face, albeit more than acceptable with the amount of money a Big XII invite would provide the AD. And unlike Morgantown, Cincinnati isn't a dump in the middle of nowhere.

Bottom line, it's a lot easier to recruit players when you're doing it on behalf of a HoF coach.

I wonder if this debate will go on for another decade.

(02-22-2015 09:12 PM)Coopdaddy67 Wrote:  

(02-22-2015 08:46 PM)Overrated Wrote:  Do you think it was a coincidence how much recruiting fell off at UC when Mick left for Louisville?

Also, Huggs isn't exactly tearing it up at WVU since Beilein's players left. Hasn't he missed the tournament 2 years in a row?

I think it was a number of factors. Go compare UC's recruiting classes post-Cronin under Huggins to those Cronin's gotten since he's taken over.

Huggins' recruiting at WVU was fine in the Big East, as their final four team had Jones, Bryant and Ebanks. What do all of those guys have in common? New York. Can't recruit the same guys as he could before, as a lot of them want to stay on the east coast. Similar situation UC would face, albeit more than acceptable with the amount of money a Big XII invite would provide the AD. And unlike Morgantown, Cincinnati isn't a dump in the middle of nowhere.

Bottom line, it's a lot easier to recruit players when you're doing it on behalf of a HoF coach.

You didn't answer my question. Do you think it was a coincidence UC's recruiting took a massive nose dive when Cronin left?

No one disagrees with your last point. But it doesn't make it a done deal. Quite frankly, it's been 20 years since Huggins was recruiting elite classes consistently without Mick Cronin. A head coach might seal the deal with recruits, but it is up to assistants to find the players and get their initial interest.

(02-22-2015 09:20 PM)BeerCat Wrote:  I wonder if this debate will go on for another decade.

Don't worry, recruiting under Cronin will be compared to recruiting under UC's next basketball coach too, it's just a matter if that's happening in 3 years from now or 15.

50 posts in this class of 2016 thread and 8-9 are about 2016 recruits. Take it elsewhere.

He won't answer it. Cause there's only one answer and it doesn't fit his opinion

I'm not taking any position other than you're both acting like jerks and cluttering this thread. If you want to re-hash stuff that happened 20 years ago, by all means but it seems in the wrong place. Keep it out of the BB Class of 2016 thread. All I want to read here is about who we are recruiting and where things are going in the next few years. Compartmentalize things, guys. Get a grip.

(02-22-2015 08:46 PM)Overrated Wrote:  

(02-22-2015 07:05 PM)Coopdaddy67 Wrote:  Without Mick Cronin, I'm surprised Huggins doesn't wet himself during games at WVU.

The head coach matters in basketball more than any other sport. Stop trying to give Cronin Huggins' credit. It would be like giving one of Cronin's assistants credit for the guys they "bring to the table". Or more accurately, are instructed to bring to the table.

Do you think it was a coincidence how much recruiting fell off at UC when Mick left for Louisville?

Also, Huggs isn't exactly tearing it up at WVU since Beilein's players left. Hasn't he missed the tournament 2 years in a row?

You might want to rethink that one, those were the years with Hicks, Maxiell, James White, Bobbitt and Kirkland, doesn't sound like it fell off too much. Only when Kennedy quit recruiting a couple of years did this program go into a huge down turn.

He is in the Top 25.

(02-22-2015 09:37 PM)letharion Wrote:  50 posts in this class of 2016 thread and 8-9 are about 2016 recruits. Take it elsewhere.

Mods, perhaps a split?

One quick comment on this-

Recruiting was better in the early to mid 90's IMO because the Shoemaker center opened in 1989, and we had a fun final four and elite eight team.

I also think our lifting program hurt us more than helped us - early 90's = fit players over achieving in the tourney, late 90's became strong players under achieving in tourney.

Mick may have something to do with it, but the biggest bump in recruiting IMO will happen with a new arena. It's much easier to recruit to an arena just completed compared to a 26 year old arena.

You might want to rethink that one, those were the years with Hicks, Maxiell, James White, Bobbitt and Kirkland, doesn't sound like it fell off too much. Only when Kennedy quit recruiting a couple of years did this program go into a huge down turn.

James White was a transfer
Maxiell was great
I expect Caupain and Clark to be better than any of the other guys, and really I see very little difference between kirkland and shaq thomas, and bobbit and cobb

I expect next years team to be much better than the 05-06 team.

Troy Caupain is still the same age as a lot of recruits for next year (1 week older than Justin Jenifer), I think because he's a sophomore, you tend to forget how young he is. Gary Clark is a year older than Caupain. Clark, Moore, and Mormon are all older than Johnson and Caupain.

I still think Caupain has a NBA chance because of his age.
The UC (95,95,92,93,94) - XU (93,93,92,92,94) matchup starters birthyears

(02-23-2015 08:43 AM)CincyBro Wrote:  

(02-22-2015 08:46 PM)Overrated Wrote:  

(02-22-2015 07:05 PM)Coopdaddy67 Wrote:  Without Mick Cronin, I'm surprised Huggins doesn't wet himself during games at WVU.

The head coach matters in basketball more than any other sport. Stop trying to give Cronin Huggins' credit. It would be like giving one of Cronin's assistants credit for the guys they "bring to the table". Or more accurately, are instructed to bring to the table.

Do you think it was a coincidence how much recruiting fell off at UC when Mick left for Louisville?

Also, Huggs isn't exactly tearing it up at WVU since Beilein's players left. Hasn't he missed the tournament 2 years in a row?

You might want to rethink that one, those were the years with Hicks, Maxiell, James White, Bobbitt and Kirkland, doesn't sound like it fell off too much. Only when Kennedy quit recruiting a couple of years did this program go into a huge down turn.

He is in the Top 25.

No, I think you want to rethink your position.

After the team that was a 1 seed and lost to UCLA and was led by Logan (a Cronin recruit), here are how the last 3 teams under Huggins based on KenPom rank and NCAA seed:

2003: 44 (9) first round loss
2004: 20 (4) second round loss
2005: 22 (7) second round loss
2006: 44 (NIT) no depth, once Kirkland was hurt they finished the year 6-10

Recruiting really slipped when Mick left. Subsequently, so did performance. Early on under Huggins, if we had a poor tournament performance it was some freak play (being tackled by Iowa St and called for traveling, half court shot by West Virginia that was tipped and still went in, Kenyon broken leg). At the end, we just weren't nearly as good.

We had a 12 year run where we were a top 10 team 7 times, and it wasn't uncommon to be top 5. We weren't even close to that level once Logan graduated. Here is the roster the year after Logan's senior year:

Leonard Stokes (senior), Jason Maxiell (sophomore), Tony Bobbitt (first year junior), Armein Kirkland (freshman), Eric Hicks (freshman), Field Williams (junior), Chad Moore (freshman), Rod Flowers (no idea what year), Taron Barker (senior), Kareem Johnson (first year junior), Derek Hollman.

That is not a talented roster. At all. Quite frankly, the fact they made the tournament is a testament to the type of coach Huggins was.

There is an incredible thread going on at BearcatTalk.com about general basketball recruiting.

One thing really caught my eye: Since 2009-2015, 158 high school players from Ohio have signed D-1 scholarships. UC got one.

(02-24-2015 07:13 PM)CincyBro Wrote:  There is an incredible thread going on at BearcatTalk.com about general basketball recruiting.

One thing really caught my eye: Since 2009-2015, 158 high school players from Ohio have signed D-1 scholarships. UC got one.

And he's been pretty un-good.

(02-24-2015 08:54 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(02-24-2015 07:13 PM)CincyBro Wrote:  There is an incredible thread going on at BearcatTalk.com about general basketball recruiting.

One thing really caught my eye: Since 2009-2015, 158 high school players from Ohio have signed D-1 scholarships. UC got one.

And he's been pretty un-good.

I think there is a pretty good chance that changes in 2016. I guess we'll see.

But that stat is one that I just don't care about. Why does it matter where our recruits come from as long as they are good? Also, is Ohio basketball even that good of a state for recruiting? I've been plenty open about how poor our recruiting was from 2010-2012. I think the last 3 classes (including the one coming in) have been better, but that dead period of recruiting left us scrambling, which is why we just brought in 3 jucos last year. I wish it was even better, but there are a lot of things that UC has going against it right now. Facilities are not impressive, most notably 5/3 and the lockerroom. Small budget is another big one, quite frankly probably the biggest one. I believe our basketball budget is somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 of the top programs in the country. That is a huge difference. And now we are in a poor conference, although I don't think that matters too much.

So we are forced to focus on mostly under the radar recruits that our staff can identify early, and then even then sometimes they blow up and we lose out. I guess you could argue we need assistants with better connections, but I'd point you back to the basketball budget. We've had a lot of hits with this strategy, but recently the misses have been pretty glaring as well.

(02-25-2015 04:54 PM)Overrated Wrote:  Also, is Ohio basketball even that good of a state for recruiting?

Some years are better than others, but the 2015 class (2016 looks to have 8 or so within the Top 100 as of now) has 4 guys that are considered Top 100 prospects, two of which are in the top 25 (Kennard, Bragg).

Plus, there's a always going to be a couple that have Ohio ties and transferred to a basketball factory out-of-state.

So, Ohio isn't overflowing with talent, but there's always going to be a half dozen to a dozen guys that are more than worthy of an offer depending on recruiting needs and such.