(03-31-2014 06:48 PM)CincyBro Wrote:  

(03-31-2014 06:42 PM)chatcat Wrote:  

(03-31-2014 06:37 PM)CincyBro Wrote:  

(03-31-2014 06:29 PM)chatcat Wrote:  

(03-31-2014 05:35 PM)CincyBro Wrote:  That's what I always heard, only AP POY would get jerseys retired.

Jack Twyman was never player of the year.

Maurice Stokes ?

His humanitarian efforts for Maurice Stokes might be the reason, I don't think Jack was a first team All American.

Jack Twyman is enshrined in the National Basketball Hall of Fame, that's why.

True. So is Oscar, who was POY 3 times. Kenyon is not in the HOF but he was POY. It appears that there is more than one path to having your number retired.

There is no national POY requirement to have a jersey retired. Not sure where that started, but it doesn't exist...

You can sit there and debate numbers and awards but at the end of the day you should know whether a guy deserves to have his jersey retired not. For me the answer with SK is yes, hope the powers that be agree.

I think it's pretty obvious that the "requirement" is that that player had an especially significant impact on the landscape of the University of Cincinnati, both basketball-wise and otherwise. I believe Sean has done that by the boatload.

(03-31-2014 09:04 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  I think it's pretty obvious that the "requirement" is that that player had an especially significant impact on the landscape of the University of Cincinnati, both basketball-wise and otherwise. I believe Sean has done that by the boatload.

agreed

(03-31-2014 12:52 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  

(03-31-2014 12:23 PM)BearcatBeta Wrote:  Retired number? Jersey on the wall?
What a great representative of the University. Not a one and done, not
a "look at me" player, will graduate.
The AP writers got this one right.

Would love to see SK's jersey retired. However, if we retire SK's jersey I think Logan's needs to go up too.

Logan was arrested durig his tenure and also quit the team for a short while. #22 will not get retired.

I suspect it is the significant impact.

Big "O" enough said!

Kenyon Martin - POY!

Twyman - Younger fans might go to Wiki. Naismith BHOF. Great Humanitarian. NBA first to average over 30 PPG. NBA announcer. Business exec. Great representative for UC.

SK - 5 years on campus. Never even heard one negative. First Team AA. Seems least worthy of this group but I think most would say OK.

I'm fine with SK making it but he is a tier below those guys and to me if we retire his jersey we are opening to the next tier (which is fine, but as to be something we want to do). If Sk's number is retired Logan's has to be retired as well. Also guys like Paul Hogue and Danny Fortson should get serious consideration.

(04-01-2014 08:59 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  I'm fine with SK making it but he is a tier below those guys and to me if we retire his jersey we are opening to the next tier (which is fine, but as to be something we want to do). If Sk's number is retired Logan's has to be retired as well. Also guys like Paul Hogue and Danny Fortson should get serious consideration.

I agree with mark, he has been great for the program and a great citizen but not at a level to retire his jersey.

(04-01-2014 08:59 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  I'm fine with SK making it but he is a tier below those guys and to me if we retire his jersey we are opening to the next tier (which is fine, but as to be something we want to do). If Sk's number is retired Logan's has to be retired as well. Also guys like Paul Hogue and Danny Fortson should get serious consideration.

Ron Bonham, first and second team AP All American, and one of the best pure shooters UC ever had.

(04-01-2014 08:59 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  I'm fine with SK making it but he is a tier below those guys and to me if we retire his jersey we are opening to the next tier (which is fine, but as to be something we want to do). If Sk's number is retired Logan's has to be retired as well. Also guys like Paul Hogue and Danny Fortson should get serious consideration.

Opening it up to the next tier? The guy scored more than 2,000 points. I'm more than okay with setting the precedent that if you score 2,000 points and are a great character guy your jersey gets retired.

Fortson is easily IMO the best Shoemaker era Bearcat but if they want to require completing your eligibility I'm okay with that as well.

(04-01-2014 09:39 AM)RealDeal Wrote:  

(04-01-2014 08:59 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  I'm fine with SK making it but he is a tier below those guys and to me if we retire his jersey we are opening to the next tier (which is fine, but as to be something we want to do). If Sk's number is retired Logan's has to be retired as well. Also guys like Paul Hogue and Danny Fortson should get serious consideration.

Opening it up to the next tier? The guy scored more than 2,000 points. I'm more than okay with setting the precedent that if you score 2,000 points and are a great character guy your jersey gets retired.

Fortson is easily IMO the best Shoemaker era Bearcat but if they want to require completing your eligibility I'm okay with that as well.

Just think Logan and Fortson were better players than SK. SK was great. Probably put him as having the 4th best Bearcat career of my lifetime (and because Fortson only played 3 I can make a decent case for him above Fortson). I am fine with rewarding SK for his accomplishments. He was great and a pleasure to watch. I just think if that is where the bar is going to be Logan's number should certainly be up there and Fortson's number could easily be up there (depending about how you feel about player not finishing senior year).

No argument that Fortson was the best of the three, but I would take SK over Logan. I just think he overall had a more consistent career against superior competition and sometimes didn't have quite as good a supporting cast.

(04-01-2014 10:49 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  Just think Logan and Fortson were better players than SK. SK was great. Probably put him as having the 4th best Bearcat career of my lifetime (and because Fortson only played 3 I can make a decent case for him above Fortson). I am fine with rewarding SK for his accomplishments. He was great and a pleasure to watch. I just think if that is where the bar is going to be Logan's number should certainly be up there and Fortson's number could easily be up there (depending about how you feel about player not finishing senior year).

Mark, I know you like advanced stats. Here's a breakdown of the career win shares for both SK and Logan.

(04-01-2014 11:19 AM)Bearcat04 Wrote:  

(04-01-2014 10:49 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  Just think Logan and Fortson were better players than SK. SK was great. Probably put him as having the 4th best Bearcat career of my lifetime (and because Fortson only played 3 I can make a decent case for him above Fortson). I am fine with rewarding SK for his accomplishments. He was great and a pleasure to watch. I just think if that is where the bar is going to be Logan's number should certainly be up there and Fortson's number could easily be up there (depending about how you feel about player not finishing senior year).

Mark, I know you like advanced stats. Here's a breakdown of the career win shares for both SK and Logan.

Code:

Logan                                    
Season      G  TS% eFG%  OWS DWS   WS
1998-99    33 .547 .513  1.4 0.9  2.3
1999-00    33 .575 .521  2.0 1.3  3.3
2000-01    34 .566 .510  3.1 1.6  4.7
2001-02    35 .599 .537  5.1 2.8  8.0
Career    135 .577 .522 11.7 6.6 18.2

Code:

SK
Season      G  TS% eFG%  OWS DWS   WS
2010-11    35 .558 .525  2.2 1.3  3.5
2011-12    37 .557 .535  3.5 2.0  5.5
2012-13    34 .518 .482  3.2 2.3  5.5
2013-14    34 .577 .515  4.7 2.4  7.2
Career    140 .552 .512 13.7 8.0 21.7

SK was asked to do a lot more early in his career than Logan. Logan's first two years he played on the Kenyon Martin / Pete Mickael teams. Not surprised SK's has an advantage there. Lo's third year he and Satterfield basically shared the burden early, before it became clear Logan was the more important player and Logan really started to assert himself as the guy the 2nd half of the year.

Both SK and Logan played on very offensively deficient teams their senior year and asked to carry an enormous load. I guess where I separate them was I just thought Logan at his best was better than SK. I thought Logan got more out of his limited offensive players than SK did. Really the only other starter capable of scoring was Stokes (who was very streaky). He absolutely carried that team to a 1 seed. He was huge down the stretch in locking up a conference title then a Conference tournament title. He scored, he passed, he broke down the defense. SK was a better defender. In the end both were great, but if you gave me one of those guys to win a game with at their peak I would take Logan.

I take Logan all day every day over Kilpatrick. That isn't a slap at Kilpatrick, it's just that Logan was that good.

The Muncie Mortar is the best shooter every at UC Senior year averaged 24.4 and if the 3 point line was in place it would have been 30. Jumpers deep in the corner. SWISS!

(04-01-2014 09:36 AM)chatcat Wrote:  

(04-01-2014 08:59 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  I'm fine with SK making it but he is a tier below those guys and to me if we retire his jersey we are opening to the next tier (which is fine, but as to be something we want to do). If Sk's number is retired Logan's has to be retired as well. Also guys like Paul Hogue and Danny Fortson should get serious consideration.

Ron Bonham, first and second team AP All American, and one of the best pure shooters UC ever had.

(04-01-2014 04:41 PM)dossbig Wrote:  The Muncie Mortar is the best shooter every at UC Senior year averaged 24.4 and if the 3 point line was in place it would have been 30. Jumpers deep in the corner. SWISS!

(04-01-2014 09:36 AM)chatcat Wrote:  

(04-01-2014 08:59 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  I'm fine with SK making it but he is a tier below those guys and to me if we retire his jersey we are opening to the next tier (which is fine, but as to be something we want to do). If Sk's number is retired Logan's has to be retired as well. Also guys like Paul Hogue and Danny Fortson should get serious consideration.

Ron Bonham, first and second team AP All American, and one of the best pure shooters UC ever had.

Pretty good rebounder at 6'4" as well.