Nothing new, but interesting that the Dispatch is weighing in against the current status quo by the AD. Seems like the only ppl that don't want OSU to play in - state rivals are the employees of the AD.

http://buckeyextra.dispatch.com/content/...-foes.html

Quote:Rob Oller commentary: Ohio State should play more in-state foes

By Rob Oller
The Columbus Dispatch • MONDAY MARCH 24, 2014 5:30 AM

As Dayton advances deeper into March, the different reactions of Ohio State fans to the Flyers’ good fortune in the NCAA tournament is like that of patients recovering from flu shots.

Those in the first group took the needle — and needling — in stride. They felt only a momentary sting and moved on. They say good for No. 11 seed Dayton, which outplayed the sixth-seeded Buckeyes in Thursday’s 60-59 win in Buffalo, N.Y.

Patients in the second group still feel pain, especially after watching the Flyers knock off No. 3 Syracuse on Saturday to advance to this week’s Sweet 16. Dayton’s path to the Elite Eight seemingly became easier yesterday when No. 10 Stanford stunned No. 2 Kansas in the third round of the South Regional. These aching members of Buckeye Nation lament, “That coulda been us.”

The third group of patients, still rubbing their arms, are convinced the shot actually caused their current queasiness.

“And that’s why we should never play in-state teams like Dayton during the regular season,” they reason. “We have nothing to gain and everything to lose.”

The first patients are the healthiest, of course. The second still smart but will recover. The attitude of the third is injurious to their own well-being.

Since the able-bodied need no medicine and those in recovery need only be monitored, the focus here is on the unhealthy third group, which oddly enough includes decision-makers inside OSU. Unfortunately, within the men’s basketball program and athletic department there remains resistance to scheduling certain in-state schools, especially Cincinnati, Xavier and Dayton.

More than once I have suggested that Ohio State help establish a December tournament that would include some combination of the Buckeyes, Cincinnati, Xavier, Dayton and perhaps a Mid-American Conference school from Ohio. Nothing has come of it, and apparently nothing will. Last month, Dispatch reporter Bill Rabinowitz questioned Ohio State athletic director Gene Smith about the possibility of playing more in-state opponents.

When Rabinowitz correctly pointed out that Dayton and Xavier would draw more fans during the nonconference portion of the schedule, Smith shot down the idea.

“We’re not going to play those guys that much,” Smith said. “We’re happy with what we’re doing. No one’s ever going to be satisfied on that one.”

When I contacted Smith yesterday, he said nothing has changed.

The public debate — to play in-state schools or not? — usually is couched in the twofold terms of whether Ohio State should beef up its nonconference schedule to better prepare for the NCAA tournament; and do paying fans deserve better than the no-name opponents who visit Value City Arena?

Inside the program, the issue is more about recruiting. Historically, Ohio State’s basketball coaches have enjoyed the recruiting advantage that comes with being alpha dog in the state. They protect that advantage by refusing to play schools like Cincinnati and Xavier. They worry that losing to in-state schools, especially those with a tradition of success, would seriously lessen their recruiting advantage.

There is some weight to the recruiting issue, and it should be noted that OSU is not alone in avoiding awkward meetings; Dayton does not play Wright State, which is in its own backyard. But Thursday’s loss to the Flyers reveals two meaty reasons why playing in-state schools on a regular basis still would be a good idea.

First, playing Dayton (or UC or Xavier) outside of the NCAA tournament would diffuse the David vs. Goliath hype and lessen the fallout when the Buckeyes do take a stone to the forehead, as they did last week when the Dayton Daily News ran a headline “THE University of Dayton” that tweaked Ohio State following the Flyers’ win. Essentially, more familiarity would breed less contempt.

Second, losing to Dayton in March was the Buckeyes’ worst fear realized. The knife even got twisted, but the world did not end with the loss. And never will.

Rob Oller is a sports reporter for The Dispatch.

roller@dispatch.com

@rollerCD

When will the rest of Ohio wake up and realize how bad Ohio State had been for the other institutions in the state. Instead of supporting fellow public and private colleges and universities, Ohio State continues to protect their alpha male status. This philosophy permeates all the way through academics and athletics.

Ohio State will always be the state flagship no matter if they play Cincinnati, Dayton, Ohio University, Xavier, or Toledo in a major athletic contest. Ohio State will not lessen their academic reputation if the state legislature provided more funding to the other public institutions. Citizens from all parts of the State of Ohio will actually have greatest respect for the school in the state capital if that institution treated its fellow neighbors like a brother and not an enemy of the state.

The funniest thing about this is that OSU thinks they're alpha dog in Ohio basketball.

They have a solid program, to be sure. They had a great run in the 60s, and Thad Motta has definitely turned them around. But are they forgetting that they went 15 years without a Sweet 16 banner until 2007? Are they forgetting that Xavier and UC recruit on the same level as them for in-state players? Are they forgetting that Xavier and Dayton have similar attendance as them over the last decade? Are they forgetting that UC's program has been superior to theirs historically by almost any metric?

They're clearly one of 4 elite basketball programs in Ohio, but pretending that they're the alpha-dog is self-delusion. This is basketball, not football.

I'm as much a homer as anyone here, and I HATE their AD/Board/etc. But their team is coming off a run of four straight Sweet 16s (Thad has 5 total), and 8 Sweet 16s since '91.

You do realize we have to go 21 years back to the Elite 8 loss to UNC to get to our 4th sweet 16. The final four in '92 is our 5th Sweet 16, meaning you have to go back to Gale Catlett in '75 to get to our 6th.

We will always have the NC's over them, and we certainly have had individual years recently where we have been the better team, but they have consistently been better.

(03-24-2014 11:34 AM)Teakwood Wrote:  I'm as much a homer as anyone here, and I HATE their AD/Board/etc. But their team is coming off a run of four straight Sweet 16s (Thad has 5 total), and 8 Sweet 16s since '91.

You do realize we have to go 21 years back to the Elite 8 loss to UNC to get to our 4th sweet 16. The final four in '92 is our 5th Sweet 16, meaning you have to go back to Gale Catlett in '75 to get to our 6th.

We will always have the NC's over them, and we certainly have had individual years recently where we have been the better team, but they have consistently been better.

They have had a better run of tournament success in the last decade but UC had a better run in the 1990's. At the end of the day there a bunch of really good basketball schools in Ohio that should play each other every season. I wish UC would do their part again with Dayton. An Ohio basketball classic could still be fun with or without Ohio State.

Too bad the thought of an annual Ohio tourney makes too much sense for schools' admins to participate in. It would be great to have that much scheduling known up front. I'd like to see it have eight teams with UC, x, OSU, & UD always protected matched up against 1st round games against a rotation of MAC, Wright State and Cleveland State. Everyone gets three games against a good mix of competition.

I think, all the other Ohio schools should have the tournament and invite ohio state... If ohio state does not show up, expose them for
what they are and that they duck the other Ohio schools.. When the
UD - ohio state match was announced,, one of the guys on the set said
"you can't duck them now Thad"... Either ohio state plays or the
rest of the state turns against them...

(03-24-2014 11:59 AM)Teakwood Wrote:  Too bad the thought of an annual Ohio tourney makes too much sense for schools' admins to participate in. It would be great to have that much scheduling known up front. I'd like to see it have eight teams with UC, x, OSU, & UD always protected matched up against 1st round games against a rotation of MAC, Wright State and Cleveland State. Everyone gets three games against a good mix of competition.

i think that the problem is there isn't enough variety if everyone is invited. Three teams from the Horizon (Wright State, Youngstown State and Cleveland State), six teams from the MAC (Toledo, Kent State, Miami, OH, Bowling Green and Akron). Obviously, Dayton, X and Cincy (i'm excluding OSU for obvious reasons), would add to the variety, but if the conference teams end up playing one another, it means that they could potentially play each other three or four times in a season depending on the draw. if you limit the invitational to the top "ranked" MAC and Horizon league OH team, then something might be done about it, but throwing them all into the mix makes for a scheduling nightmare.

Should have it in Columbus and not invite them.

(03-24-2014 11:00 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  The funniest thing about this is that OSU thinks they're alpha dog in Ohio basketball.

They have a solid program, to be sure. They had a great run in the 60s, and Thad Motta has definitely turned them around. But are they forgetting that they went 15 years without a Sweet 16 banner until 2007? Are they forgetting that Xavier and UC recruit on the same level as them for in-state players? Are they forgetting that Xavier and Dayton have similar attendance as them over the last decade? Are they forgetting that UC's program has been superior to theirs historically by almost any metric?

They're clearly one of 4 elite basketball programs in Ohio, but pretending that they're the alpha-dog is self-delusion. This is basketball, not football.

I went to a game at OSU last year. They are on another level up from UC. Money, conference, arena, talent level. Since Matta has taken over 10 years ago they've been to a Championship Game, a Final Four, an Elite 8, and two Sweet 16s, and three other times made the tournament. They've won 5 conference championships. He's signed 10 McDonald's All Americans. You really don't think they are the alpha dog in Ohio?

The most logical tournament or classic would include Dayton, Cincinnati, Xavier, one MAC school, and one Horizon league school every season. That way you maximize the events potential without giving away games on your schedule. Either the MAC or Horizon league school would be the fifth team that would be subject to three road game and one home game.

For example Wright State is the Horizon league rep while Miami is the MAC rep. The classic takes place in Cincinnati. Wright State is not invited to the event in Cincinnati but instead plays road games at Dayton, Cincinnati, and Xavier while hosting Miami. UC, UD, Xavier, and Miami play each over a three game weekend in Cincinnati.

(Things could be worked out where the team not invited plays two homes and two road games. I could see Ohio, Akron, or Kent State as the MAC rep with an agreement to play UC, UD, or XU in Columbus or Cleveland.)

Friday: Cincinnati-Xavier, Dayton-Miami
Saturday: Cincinnati-Dayton, Xavier-Miami
Sunday: Cincinnati-Miami, Dayton-Xavier

The chances of something like this getting done would be nearly impossible, even though it would spark local basketball interest during a time of year when football is still king.

(03-24-2014 11:00 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  The funniest thing about this is that OSU thinks they're alpha dog in Ohio basketball.

They have a solid program, to be sure. They had a great run in the 60s, and Thad Motta has definitely turned them around. But are they forgetting that they went 15 years without a Sweet 16 banner until 2007? Are they forgetting that Xavier and UC recruit on the same level as them for in-state players? Are they forgetting that Xavier and Dayton have similar attendance as them over the last decade? Are they forgetting that UC's program has been superior to theirs historically by almost any metric?

They're clearly one of 4 elite basketball programs in Ohio, but pretending that they're the alpha-dog is self-delusion. This is basketball, not football.

Having lived in Central Ohio for the time I did, I would tell you that not only do Ohio State fans think they are the Alpha-Dog, they believe they are a Top 10 program all time (they admit they are closer to 10 than to 5). They will cite 22 B10 Titles, 11 Final Fours (6th Most in CBB History), and dozens of Elite Eights and Final Fours.

Their response to the successes at UC, Xavier and UD is the success the programs had came as the result of playing in inferior conferences.

Regarding our own program I disagree that we recruit on the same level in-state that they do and have similar attendance. They can still out recruit us for any player in the state if they want to (especially kids outside of Cincinnati). OSU's home attendance average is 15-16K over the past decade (even in the early 2000s they were hitting that mark). Our attendance issues have been well documented, especially early on in the season.

While I despise OSU I can't say I'm enamored with the oft discussed Ohio Tourney either. We already play X and it's reasonable to believe Dayton would agree to a new series. Who else matters?

I just can't get excited about driving to Toledo, Cleveland or Columbus, being forced to buy an overpriced bundle of tournament tickets for otherwise meaningless games and then watching UC beat Youngstown to earn the right to play Bowling Green the next day. If the end game is playing X--we already have that game; Dayton--we could get that game.

Alternately, I could get excited about Ohio's best facing off against a neighboring state's best. Leave OSU out and get a three game event with UC, UD and XU facing IU, PU and ND and it's a real happening with high fan interest, robust ticket sales and national TV. Alternate host states/cities and each school only needs to schedule one game to make it happen.

(03-24-2014 01:13 PM)indycat Wrote:  While I despise OSU I can't say I'm enamored with the oft discussed Ohio Tourney either. We already play X and it's reasonable to believe Dayton would agree to a new series. Who else matters?

I just can't get excited about driving to Toledo, Cleveland or Columbus, being forced to buy an overpriced bundle of tournament tickets for otherwise meaningless games and then watching UC beat Youngstown to earn the right to play Bowling Green the next day. If the end game is playing X--we already have that game; Dayton--we could get that game.

Alternately, I could get excited about Ohio's best facing off against a neighboring state's best. Leave OSU out and get a three game event with UC, UD and XU facing IU, PU and ND and it's a real happening with high fan interest, robust ticket sales and national TV. Alternate host states/cities and each school only needs to schedule one game to make it happen.

I would prefer the a multi-state option too. Bearcats still need to renew the Dayton series. It was a nice rivalry game back in the day. Almost like a diet version of UC-Louisville.

A little OT...think of how close the 1992 Final Four came to being a Tri-State Tournament. Duke beat UK on the Laettner shot and the Fab Five had to battle late to beat OSU 75-71. That close to being UC vs OSU and UK vs IU. That would have been awesome. But anyway....back on topic

(03-24-2014 01:06 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(03-24-2014 11:00 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  The funniest thing about this is that OSU thinks they're alpha dog in Ohio basketball.

They have a solid program, to be sure. They had a great run in the 60s, and Thad Motta has definitely turned them around. But are they forgetting that they went 15 years without a Sweet 16 banner until 2007? Are they forgetting that Xavier and UC recruit on the same level as them for in-state players? Are they forgetting that Xavier and Dayton have similar attendance as them over the last decade? Are they forgetting that UC's program has been superior to theirs historically by almost any metric?

They're clearly one of 4 elite basketball programs in Ohio, but pretending that they're the alpha-dog is self-delusion. This is basketball, not football.

Having lived in Central Ohio for the time I did, I would tell you that not only do Ohio State fans think they are the Alpha-Dog, they believe they are a Top 10 program all time (they admit they are closer to 10 than to 5). They will cite 22 B10 Titles, 11 Final Fours (6th Most in CBB History), and dozens of Elite Eights and Final Fours.

Their response to the successes at UC, Xavier and UD is the success the programs had came as the result of playing in inferior conferences.

Regarding our own program I disagree that we recruit on the same level in-state that they do and have similar attendance. They can still out recruit us for any player in the state if they want to (especially kids outside of Cincinnati). OSU's home attendance average is 15-16K over the past decade (even in the early 2000s they were hitting that mark). Our attendance issues have been well documented, especially early on in the season.

I agree that they're a good program. But the idea that they're heads and shoulders above everyone else in the state is completely delusional.

If they're top-10 all time, then so are we. We have more wins, more titles (national and conference, despite being independent for a long time), a better winning percentage, and have been ranked better in the polls (387 weeks ranked vs 365, and we've been ranked in 21 final polls and 20 preseason polls, compared to 18 and 20 for them).

If they think the MVC, Metro, or Big East was significantly worse than the Big 10 in basketball, then why did the MVC have more Final Fours and national titles than the Big Ten from 1958-1975 despite having fewer teams? Why did the Metro have 2 national titles and 5 Final Fours in the 80s? And why has the Big East won 4 national titles since the Big 10's last title?

I could cherry-pick the facts and argue that we're clearly better than them, but that would be (almost) as delusional as they're being. In reality, the two programs' histories are almost dead-even.


Regarding recruiting, OSU's recent star basketball players, like UC's, mostly hail from out-of-state. We've don't out-recruit them in Cleveland, but we certainly do in Cincinnati, and so does Xavier. Yancy Gates, Deonta Vaughn, Kevin Johnson, Jason Henry (who was a disappointment, but was highly recruited), Kenny Frease, Dante Jackson, and Terrell Holloway all came from Ohio. All but Vaughn were highly recruited nationally, and would have been welcomed at OSU with open arms.

Regarding attendance, I didn't compare ours to theirs. I said UD nearly matches their attendance. There's a reason the Flyers got the play-in game every year instead of Raleigh, Indy, or KC. Columbus probably wasn't even considered.


And by the way, OSU doesn't have 11 Final Fours. Count the banners hanging in their gym; they have 10.

(03-24-2014 12:44 PM)bearcatlawjd Wrote:  The most logical tournament or classic would include Dayton, Cincinnati, Xavier, one MAC school, and one Horizon league school every season. That way you maximize the events potential without giving away games on your schedule. Either the MAC or Horizon league school would be the fifth team that would be subject to three road game and one home game.

For example Wright State is the Horizon league rep while Miami is the MAC rep. The classic takes place in Cincinnati. Wright State is not invited to the event in Cincinnati but instead plays road games at Dayton, Cincinnati, and Xavier while hosting Miami. UC, UD, Xavier, and Miami play each over a three game weekend in Cincinnati.

(Things could be worked out where the team not invited plays two homes and two road games. I could see Ohio, Akron, or Kent State as the MAC rep with an agreement to play UC, UD, or XU in Columbus or Cleveland.)

Friday: Cincinnati-Xavier, Dayton-Miami
Saturday: Cincinnati-Dayton, Xavier-Miami
Sunday: Cincinnati-Miami, Dayton-Xavier

The chances of something like this getting done would be nearly impossible, even though it would spark local basketball interest during a time of year when football is still king.

The one area you did not address is the financial side. It dictates scheduling more than most know. You may get all these teams to buy into the idea until teams start losing home games and revenue.

Look how hard it is to schedule good competitive OOC games now. Now multiply that by four or five extra schools who would need to clear their schedule on the same days and work out the finances.

Pie in the sky and never going to happen.

I Would not play any Ohio teams except Xavier. The reason is we need to play high profile teams out of conference. Especially if the AAC goes with a 20 game conference schedule. Playing MAC schools year end and year out does not help our RPI or any other metric used by the selection committee. You don't want to miss out on a NCAA invite because your schedule is weak.

(03-24-2014 01:06 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(03-24-2014 11:00 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  The funniest thing about this is that OSU thinks they're alpha dog in Ohio basketball.

They have a solid program, to be sure. They had a great run in the 60s, and Thad Motta has definitely turned them around. But are they forgetting that they went 15 years without a Sweet 16 banner until 2007? Are they forgetting that Xavier and UC recruit on the same level as them for in-state players? Are they forgetting that Xavier and Dayton have similar attendance as them over the last decade? Are they forgetting that UC's program has been superior to theirs historically by almost any metric?

They're clearly one of 4 elite basketball programs in Ohio, but pretending that they're the alpha-dog is self-delusion. This is basketball, not football.

Having lived in Central Ohio for the time I did, I would tell you that not only do Ohio State fans think they are the Alpha-Dog, they believe they are a Top 10 program all time (they admit they are closer to 10 than to 5). They will cite 22 B10 Titles, 11 Final Fours (6th Most in CBB History), and dozens of Elite Eights and Final Fours.

Their response to the successes at UC, Xavier and UD is the success the programs had came as the result of playing in inferior conferences.

Regarding our own program I disagree that we recruit on the same level in-state that they do and have similar attendance. They can still out recruit us for any player in the state if they want to (especially kids outside of Cincinnati). OSU's home attendance average is 15-16K over the past decade (even in the early 2000s they were hitting that mark). Our attendance issues have been well documented, especially early on in the season.

Do the "inferior" opponents include the one that UC beat for the national championship twice?

(03-24-2014 12:42 PM)levydl Wrote:  

(03-24-2014 11:00 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  The funniest thing about this is that OSU thinks they're alpha dog in Ohio basketball.

They have a solid program, to be sure. They had a great run in the 60s, and Thad Motta has definitely turned them around. But are they forgetting that they went 15 years without a Sweet 16 banner until 2007? Are they forgetting that Xavier and UC recruit on the same level as them for in-state players? Are they forgetting that Xavier and Dayton have similar attendance as them over the last decade? Are they forgetting that UC's program has been superior to theirs historically by almost any metric?

They're clearly one of 4 elite basketball programs in Ohio, but pretending that they're the alpha-dog is self-delusion. This is basketball, not football.

I went to a game at OSU last year. They are on another level up from UC. Money, conference, arena, talent level. Since Matta has taken over 10 years ago they've been to a Championship Game, a Final Four, an Elite 8, and two Sweet 16s, and three other times made the tournament. They've won 5 conference championships. He's signed 10 McDonald's All Americans. You really don't think they are the alpha dog in Ohio?

I think they have been better some years this year being the exception.

And honestly Big 10 conference championships are impressive but not nearly as impressive as the Big East or ACC. There is a great chance they would have had one Big East title in the same stretch. Might have had one or two in the B12 or SEC.

He has signed 10 Mickey D's and had a lot leave.

Matta shot his wad when he got Conley and Oden. And how he got them really should have been investigated by the NCAA. What coach gets to put kids in his car for a cross state, multi-hour recruiting pitch on the claim that "they needed a ride"?