Anyway, I have to admit that I now think Pastner should expand the rotation to 8, that #8 should be King, and that King should probably start. Which two guards to start is harder. If you start Joe and Geron then you have two guys who are not hitting threes, but play our best defense. Then if you bring in Crawford and Dixon you bring in the ability to hit threes, but both like to shoot...

The biggest problem with starting 3 guards that I see is the giant hole on defense at the 3 spot, as others have said for a while now. The only caveat is that King must continue to hit free throws.

(01-19-2014 12:56 PM)Bluebeard Wrote:  

(01-19-2014 12:44 PM)Willie Becton Wrote:  Would you like to make an apples to apples comparison?

Look dude, I didn't compare JP to Bo Ryan, Boss Man did. I actually disagreed with the comparison.

But if you want apples to apples, I"ll play along.

In Ryan's 1st 4 years at Wisconsin, he did this:

2nd round, sweet 16, 2nd round, elite 8

That's 7 tourney wins in his 1st 4 years. We know how many Pastner has. It ain't 7.

And in Ryan's 1st job he won 4 D-III national championships at Wisconsin-Platteville.

That's not apples to apples, John. I mean, Bluebeard.

Wisconsin was Ryan's THIRD collegiate coaching job.

Apples to apples would be his FIRST four seasons at his FIRST job.

And that would be NAIA Wisconsin-Plattville. Ryan assumed the job at 37 years old in 1984.

His first four years produced a record of 63-44. Again, this is against NAIA competition.

Thank you for playing, and Johnny, tell Bluebeard what his consolation prize is.

"Bossman, he gets an autographed picture of 49 year old Bruce Pearl hugging a 23 year coed on a houseboat!! Wild applause from the Pastner bashers as Bluebeard squeals with delight over his consolation prize.

Bossman, apples to apples would be to compare Ryan's first high level job to Pasnter's first high level job.

It's kind of hard to compare a job at Wisconsin-Platteville to the Memphis job. I would say that Pasnter's job would be 9,000 times easier to win at in that scenario.

(01-19-2014 11:39 AM)TigerBill Wrote:  

(01-19-2014 11:07 AM)boss man Wrote:  Lots of games left, folks.

Excellent point by I LUV MEMTIGERS on two of a same occurance not being a trend. Personally, I always looked at two straight occurances being a coincidence. I always thought three of the same occurance/action/outcome = trend.

Whatever.

MEMPHIS lost at home to Cincy and UConn. They beat Louisville on the road. To balance out what apparently is some people's "expectations" of NO home losses, the TIGERS need to beat either UC or UConn on the road.

Obviously, people are fully expecting total sweeps of Houston, SMU, Temple, UCF, etc. Oh, and whip the Zags, too on Feb 8.

I wonder if Badger fans anticipated no home conference losses this season. # 3 Wisconsin lost to unranked Michigan at home this week. That coach must be a real loser, huh?

I did not expect two home losses in a row, and regardless of other measurements, to me that's a trend. But that's splitting hairs.

The two losses in and of themselves are not crippling in the long term. The season isn't over. What I do want to see, and the point I made earlier that has sort of been glossed over, is that I am still not sure that CJP knows what he wants from this team, and how he wants them to play. If he does I have not seen it.

It's all well and good to adapt to how your opponent is playing, but that adaptation must take place to try and force your opponent to play your game, not to try and beat them at theirs. And before you can do that you have to first know what your game is and what it isn't; this was the point of discussion I originally brought up.

No splitting hairs with me. I also did not expect two losses at home in a row. I agree with every in-game recommendation you stated above.

I'll be d@mned if your definition above defines a trend. IMO, there you could not be more dead wrong.

(01-19-2014 05:58 PM)Bluebeard Wrote:  Bossman, apples to apples would be to compare Ryan's first high level job to Pasnter's first high level job.

It's kind of hard to compare a job at Wisconsin-Platteville to the Memphis job. I would say that Pasnter's job would be 9,000 times easier to win at in that scenario.

Excellent deflection, John, after I schooled you AGAIN.

No, sorry - first college head coaching jobs IS apples to apples. Ryan learned things from his first two HC jobs before stepping into NCAA Division I level work in his mid 40's. Just as Fredo did at UMass and the NJ Nets before taking the MEMPHIS job.

Pastner had been an assistant, and was packed and headed to Lexington before being hired to clean up Fredo's nuke job here at MEMPHIS (before he bolted to UK to escape the NCAA posse breathing down his neck). Pastner was 31.

Ryan had the LUXURY of learning at Wisconsin-Plattville. Pastner was thrust into the media fishbowl of following the best 4 year run in college basketball history. Well....at least it was before the NCAA stripped Fredo a second time of a Final Four appearance.

Be wary of your careless answers, sir. Some people do check on specifics.

(01-19-2014 12:32 PM)Bluebeard Wrote:  

(01-19-2014 11:07 AM)boss man Wrote:  Lots of games left, folks.

Excellent point by I LUV MEMTIGERS on two of a same occurance not being a trend. Personally, I always looked at two straight occurances being a coincidence. I always thought three of the same occurance/action/outcome = trend.

Whatever.

MEMPHIS lost at home to Cincy and UConn. They beat Louisville on the road. To balance out what apparently is some people's "expectations" of NO home losses, the TIGERS need to beat either UC or UConn on the road.

Obviously, people are fully expecting total sweeps of Houston, SMU, Temple, UCF, etc. Oh, and whip the Zags, too on Feb 8.

I wonder if Badger fans anticipated no home conference losses this season. # 3 Wisconsin lost to unranked Michigan at home this week. That coach must be a real loser, huh?

Please stop with the tired, anecdotal "well this other coach lost too, so he must suck"

No actually Bo Ryan has won 73% of his games playing a murderous Big 10 schedule and has taken Wisconsin to the Sweet 16 5 times and the Elite 8 once.

JP has one tourney win in 4 years. No comparison.

Maybe Pastner will get there one day, but at this point it is dumb to compare him to a coach that has actually accomplished stuff.

Bo Ryan's Elite 8 came in 2005; so if you are going to talk about accomplishments, try to come up with something that isn't ancient history. The fact of the matter is; that since 2005; Bo Ryan's teams have underachieved in the NCAA tournament every single year without fail. In each of the last 8 seasons Wisconsin has ranked lower than where they were ranked before the NCAA tournament started; with the exception of 1 season, where they started and finished in the same spot.

2006
UR/No NCAA/UR

2007
#4/2nd round/#6

2008
#5/Sweet 16/#10

2009
UR/2nd round/UR

2010
#19/1st round/#24

2011
#13/Sweet 16/#15

2012
#12/Sweet 16/#12

2013
#17/1st round/#22

Wisconsin has been ranked in the top 13 or better, 4 times since then and has never made it past the Sweet 16. On one occasion they were ranked #4 in the country and on another they were ranked #6.

Bo Ryan has 1 win against a higher seed in the last 8 years. Most years Wisconsin isn't even competitive in their tournament losses

2007: 2 seed loses to 7 seed by 6 points
2008: 3 seed loses to 9 seed by 17 points
2009: 12 seed beats 5 seed, loses to 4 seed by 11 points
2010: 4 seed loses to 12 seed by 18 points
2011: 4 seed loses to 8 seed by 7 points
2012: 4 seed loses to 1 seed by 1 point
2013: 12 seed loses to 5 seed by 11 points

It's a shame that posters are allowed to say that coaches suck, but other posters aren't allowed to say that they suck, when they obviously do; especially when sucky posters clutter the board with multiple aliases.

(01-17-2014 01:01 PM)TigerBill Wrote:  I thought CJP had figured out what he wanted this team to be, but apparently I was wrong. Two losses in a row at home? Are you kidding me? I did not see the game, had the recording but deleted it, so this is not a micro-manage kind of thread. All I know is that what he's doing isn't working.

I said after Cincy that it would be apparent whether or not the coach had learned and grown from that debacle, and it appears the answer is 'no.' This shocks me, to be honest.

Idiot

(01-20-2014 08:58 AM)midtowncowboy Wrote:  

(01-17-2014 01:01 PM)TigerBill Wrote:  I thought CJP had figured out what he wanted this team to be, but apparently I was wrong. Two losses in a row at home? Are you kidding me? I did not see the game, had the recording but deleted it, so this is not a micro-manage kind of thread. All I know is that what he's doing isn't working.

I said after Cincy that it would be apparent whether or not the coach had learned and grown from that debacle, and it appears the answer is 'no.' This shocks me, to be honest.

Idiot

Your most cogent argument ever.

Stammers, all that rambling post above does is further proves the point that even though Bo Ryan is no all- time great coach, his resume is still much, much better than Pastner's. And you can cherry pick all you want. You can take Ryan's 1st 5 years like some of you said was fair at first. Now you've changed the argument and took his last 5 years. It doesn't matter. Any Bo Ryan/Wisconsin period is better than any Pastner/Memphis period. Period. I wish that weren't true but facts are facts. And you could also argue that the Wisconsin job is a tougher job than the Memphis job. I wonder what would happen if the 2 coaches changed positions? Put Ryan at Memphis for the last 5 years and Pastner at Wisconsin for the last 5 years. I shudder to even imagine the results.

(01-20-2014 08:24 AM)boss man Wrote:  

(01-19-2014 05:58 PM)Bluebeard Wrote:  Bossman, apples to apples would be to compare Ryan's first high level job to Pasnter's first high level job.

It's kind of hard to compare a job at Wisconsin-Platteville to the Memphis job. I would say that Pasnter's job would be 9,000 times easier to win at in that scenario.

Excellent deflection, John, after I schooled you AGAIN.

No, sorry - first college head coaching jobs IS apples to apples. Ryan learned things from his first two HC jobs before stepping into NCAA Division I level work in his mid 40's. Just as Fredo did at UMass and the NJ Nets before taking the MEMPHIS job.

Pastner had been an assistant, and was packed and headed to Lexington before being hired to clean up Fredo's nuke job here at MEMPHIS (before he bolted to UK to escape the NCAA posse breathing down his neck). Pastner was 31.

Ryan had the LUXURY of learning at Wisconsin-Plattville. Pastner was thrust into the media fishbowl of following the best 4 year run in college basketball history. Well....at least it was before the NCAA stripped Fredo a second time of a Final Four appearance.

Be wary of your careless answers, sir. Some people do check on specifics.

I appreciate your enthusiasm for our program and coach, Bossman. Fans like you are valuable to their respective schools. And I'm not BSing, I'm serious. Having said that, you are a tad on the delusional side.

Neither Houston nor USF is a top 25 caliber team...but both are in conference and both have capable players.

Need to sweep this weekend.

Will be good- getting to 5-2 and 15-4. Contrary to belief- our kids cannot just show up- need these wins. Try and enjoy these games.

(01-20-2014 10:24 AM)Bluebeard Wrote:  Stammers, all that rambling post above does is further proves the point that even though Bo Ryan is no all- time great coach, his resume is still much, much better than Pastner's. And you can cherry pick all you want. You can take Ryan's 1st 5 years like some of you said was fair at first. Now you've changed the argument and took his last 5 years. It doesn't matter. Any Bo Ryan/Wisconsin period is better than any Pastner/Memphis period. Period. I wish that weren't true but facts are facts. And you could also argue that the Wisconsin job is a tougher job than the Memphis job. I wonder what would happen if the 2 coaches changed positions? Put Ryan at Memphis for the last 5 years and Pastner at Wisconsin for the last 5 years. I shudder to even imagine the results.

Ryan inherited a team that wasn't on probation; wasn't decimated by the outgoing coach; was in a major conference; went Final Four, 2nd Round the previous years, and that had 2 NBA players on it; including Devon Harris, who was the #5 overall pick the next year.

Quote:I wonder what would happen if the 2 coaches changed positions? Put Ryan at Memphis for the last 5 years and Pastner at Wisconsin for the last 5 years

That's an easy one. Ryan never recruits at a high level. Since 2007 he has only signed one 5* and one 4* recruit. I don't think a 61 year old fuddy duddy who plays a slow, plodding style would be able to recruit Memphis very well; I don't think he would be able to beat up CUSA the way Pastner has, and he is obviously not as good a fit as Pastner is.

Pastner can recruit everywhere. No contest.

(01-20-2014 11:16 AM)Mimi Wrote:  Neither Houston nor USF is a top 25 caliber team...but both are in conference and both have capable players.

Need to sweep this weekend.

Will be good- getting to 5-2 and 15-4. Contrary to belief- our kids cannot just show up- need these wins. Try and enjoy these games.

We need not only to sweep but to make a statement and pound both of these teams.

(01-20-2014 11:25 AM)Stammers Wrote:  Ryan never recruits at a high level. Since 2007 he has only signed one 5* and one 4* recruit.

So you're telling me that Ryan gets 2 and 3 stars to Sweet 16's and Pastner gets 4 and 5 stars to 1st and 2nd round exits? Yeah, I already knew this.

To sum it up.....Ryan overachieves and Pastner underachieves. Thanks for spelling it out Stammers.

(01-20-2014 11:25 AM)Stammers Wrote:  Pastner can recruit everywhere. No contest.

What good is great recruiting if you can't get out of the 2nd round?

I'll take the overachiever ahead of the underachiever anyday.

Give it some more time. Ryan has been coaching almost as long as Pastner has been alive. Same with K, Cal and others whom folks want to compare to Pastner.

Josh is smart, works hard, and is persistent. And he has improved every year. I bet he'll be able to coach with Ryan a long time before he is 61. It's not like Josh is running the program into the ground, while we're waiting for him to learn.

In the long run, the coach who consistently recruits significantly better recruits will most likely be the more successful one.

I can't argue with that Triple A. I hope you are right. Good post.

(01-20-2014 12:09 PM)Bluebeard Wrote:  I can't argue with that Triple A. I hope you are right. Good post.

Thank you. I might print and frame that post.

While I would love our kids to win each game by 20- the only statement that really matters is winning these two games.

Because, unlike in years' past, we still have three conference games against major opponents left (Louisville, UConn, Cincy), really have 5 high level conference games left (SMU SMU) and have Gonzaga.

Just win baby.