(09-18-2013 12:07 PM)S11 Wrote:  

(09-18-2013 11:50 AM)john01992 Wrote:  i think it has more to do with the b12 being such an inferior conference that schools will be more willing to go through all that to get out

Says the fan of a league with their GOR modeled after ours who's league currently has a member willing to fight through an obscene buy out to get out.

You should be rooting for the ACC in that contest, right? If the courts slap down Maryland's attempt to pay less than full price, if they enforce the by-laws by the letter, that's probably a good thing for the solidity of anyone else's by-laws. If the courts open up a giant loophole and let the turtle walk through it, then schools thinking about making a move will feel like any set of by-laws can be broken if you fight hard enough.

The other factor which isn't discussed is the fact that while the TV networks are paying the Big 12 $20M a year, there are also composition clauses. Common sense says there has to be.

So I wonder how that factors in. Let's say Texas and Oklahoma leave the Big 12. Bylaws state that the Big 12 still owns their TV rights, so they are splitting those two schools $20M.

The thing is...the networks are not going to continue to pay the Big 12 $20M minus TX and OU plus Cincinnati and UCF. There's no way in hell they would sign such a deal. It's been acknowledged that all these media deals have composition clauses. Plain sense indicates it's true, as there's no way Fox and ESPN would ever get on the hook paying that gutted conference $20M a year, even if they did retain TX and OU home game rights.

So then what happens? So the Big 12 replaces TX/OU with Cincy/UCF. The networks renegotiate their deal down to say $8M a year, because it's not worth any more than that. What about the OU/TX rights? Do the networks still pay the Big 12 $20m for each of those?

The idea that if TX and OU left, the Big 12 could simply add any two teams, and collect their TV contract + TX/OU's payment simply defies logic. No network would agree to such a thing.

I don't think anyone in a major conference is going anywhere. But the idea that the GOR protects the "little guys" just doesn't seem true to me. I think it's there to protect the networks first and foremost, to make it painful for a WVU or TCU (or Maryland) to leave. But if the worst happened and TX/OU left, the networks would be fighting to set aside the GOR as hard if not harder than the departing schools.

There's no scenario I can imagine where the Big 12 continues as a conference getting paid $20M/yr for the length of the contract if TX/OU leave. So it will be negotiated away, and the Big 12 won't have a whole lot of leverage. They will need to take what they can get. Or more likely they will dissolve, so they can all pursue membership somewhere without the hindrance of a GOR.

(09-18-2013 02:31 PM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  

(09-18-2013 11:34 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Basically, nobody is leaving for the length of the GoR. So you guys can quit speculating about the breakup of the Big XII for the next decade or so...

Texas fans on Orange blood are talking about Texas leaving now. I know Texas leaving is the last thing a West Virginia fans wants to hear. However, Bit it is really being discussed by Texas movers and shakers.

It's not being discussed by the movers and shakers. It's being discussed by Longhorn fans...

The movers and shakers are more concerned with the lack of success of Longhorn athletics, which makes everything else seem so much worse than it is. Mack Brown isn't the only person in Austin with job security issues...

I would be shocked if the Big12 is going anywhere, anytime soon...

Anything is possible, but I just don't see it happening. It would be such a collabrotive effort.

If the big12 adds anymore teams, the possibility of it being picked from diminishes.

(09-18-2013 02:53 PM)Lou_C Wrote:  There's no scenario I can imagine where the Big 12 continues as a conference getting paid $20M/yr for the length of the contract if TX/OU leave.

The Big 12's TV partners will still own the rights to UT and OU home games for the life of that contract even if UT and OU leave. ESPN and Fox lose nothing.

But if a departing team buys back its TV rights for the remainder of the GOR, then ESPN and Fox would have to be compensated. And that's where the real money would come in. The fair-market value of UT's TV rights is at least a few times as much as the annual payment each school gets ($20 million/year). The FMV of OU and KU TV rights are less than UT but significantly more than the average. If anyone other than those three leaves, they might argue that they should have to pay less than $20 million/year because the bulk of the TV-contract value is in UT, OU, and KU. Conversely, if one of those three leaves, the conference might demand twice that much from OU or KU and five times that much from UT.

They can talk all they want but:

1) Even UT can't just shrug at a multi hundred million buy out

2) Nobody will take them with LHN and ESPN has no reason to let them out of it for the purpose of destroying one of their properties and driving up their costs.

3) The 3 red headed step children won't just let UT walk away and demote them to G5 teams. They are totally dependent on UT and won't just let them go.

(09-18-2013 03:10 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(09-18-2013 02:53 PM)Lou_C Wrote:  There's no scenario I can imagine where the Big 12 continues as a conference getting paid $20M/yr for the length of the contract if TX/OU leave.

The Big 12's TV partners will still own the rights to UT and OU home games for the life of that contract even if UT and OU leave. ESPN and Fox lose nothing.

But if a departing team buys back its TV rights for the remainder of the GOR, then ESPN and Fox would have to be compensated. And that's where the real money would come in.

QFT.

However option C is the correct choice. The team leaving doesn't "buy back" their rights, they simply collect the money owed to them by the Big XII for their use.

Then the day the Big XII decides not to pay them for the rights they withheld, the are taken to court and the Big XII would then be forced to pay them for the use of their rights. As the cherry on top then likely have the entire agreement thrown out due to breach of contract. Then it costs them nothing at all to leave. And of course if the Big XII continues to pay as greed, they simply collect their checks until the GOR runs out, meanwhile allowing their new conference to sell their Tier 3 games and conference roads for ends meat until then.

All in the hypothetical that someone chooses to leave.

(09-18-2013 02:53 PM)Lou_C Wrote:  The other factor which isn't discussed is the fact that while the TV networks are paying the Big 12 $20M a year, there are also composition clauses. Common sense says there has to be.

So I wonder how that factors in. Let's say Texas and Oklahoma leave the Big 12. Bylaws state that the Big 12 still owns their TV rights, so they are splitting those two schools $20M.

The thing is...the networks are not going to continue to pay the Big 12 $20M minus TX and OU plus Cincinnati and UCF. There's no way in hell they would sign such a deal. It's been acknowledged that all these media deals have composition clauses. Plain sense indicates it's true, as there's no way Fox and ESPN would ever get on the hook paying that gutted conference $20M a year, even if they did retain TX and OU home game rights.

So then what happens? So the Big 12 replaces TX/OU with Cincy/UCF. The networks renegotiate their deal down to say $8M a year, because it's not worth any more than that. What about the OU/TX rights? Do the networks still pay the Big 12 $20m for each of those?

The idea that if TX and OU left, the Big 12 could simply add any two teams, and collect their TV contract + TX/OU's payment simply defies logic. No network would agree to such a thing.

I don't think anyone in a major conference is going anywhere. But the idea that the GOR protects the "little guys" just doesn't seem true to me. I think it's there to protect the networks first and foremost, to make it painful for a WVU or TCU (or Maryland) to leave. But if the worst happened and TX/OU left, the networks would be fighting to set aside the GOR as hard if not harder than the departing schools.

There's no scenario I can imagine where the Big 12 continues as a conference getting paid $20M/yr for the length of the contract if TX/OU leave. So it will be negotiated away, and the Big 12 won't have a whole lot of leverage. They will need to take what they can get. Or more likely they will dissolve, so they can all pursue membership somewhere without the hindrance of a GOR.

Why would they not continue to pay $20 million if they still had the Texas and OU rights? What have the networks lost?

(09-18-2013 02:53 PM)Lou_C Wrote:  The other factor which isn't discussed is the fact that while the TV networks are paying the Big 12 $20M a year, there are also composition clauses. Common sense says there has to be.

So I wonder how that factors in. Let's say Texas and Oklahoma leave the Big 12. Bylaws state that the Big 12 still owns their TV rights, so they are splitting those two schools $20M.

The thing is...the networks are not going to continue to pay the Big 12 $20M minus TX and OU plus Cincinnati and UCF. There's no way in hell they would sign such a deal. It's been acknowledged that all these media deals have composition clauses. Plain sense indicates it's true, as there's no way Fox and ESPN would ever get on the hook paying that gutted conference $20M a year, even if they did retain TX and OU home game rights.

So then what happens? So the Big 12 replaces TX/OU with Cincy/UCF. The networks renegotiate their deal down to say $8M a year, because it's not worth any more than that. What about the OU/TX rights? Do the networks still pay the Big 12 $20m for each of those?

The idea that if TX and OU left, the Big 12 could simply add any two teams, and collect their TV contract + TX/OU's payment simply defies logic. No network would agree to such a thing.

I don't think anyone in a major conference is going anywhere. But the idea that the GOR protects the "little guys" just doesn't seem true to me. I think it's there to protect the networks first and foremost, to make it painful for a WVU or TCU (or Maryland) to leave. But if the worst happened and TX/OU left, the networks would be fighting to set aside the GOR as hard if not harder than the departing schools.

There's no scenario I can imagine where the Big 12 continues as a conference getting paid $20M/yr for the length of the contract if TX/OU leave. So it will be negotiated away, and the Big 12 won't have a whole lot of leverage. They will need to take what they can get. Or more likely they will dissolve, so they can all pursue membership somewhere without the hindrance of a GOR.

no they will still pay & thats the biggest dilemma for these GOR are solid proponents. never in the history of conf realignment has a conference lost money after a schools departures. and that includes

big east 2003
big 12 2010
b12 2011
big east 2011

(09-18-2013 04:18 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(09-18-2013 02:53 PM)Lou_C Wrote:  The other factor which isn't discussed is the fact that while the TV networks are paying the Big 12 $20M a year, there are also composition clauses. Common sense says there has to be.

So I wonder how that factors in. Let's say Texas and Oklahoma leave the Big 12. Bylaws state that the Big 12 still owns their TV rights, so they are splitting those two schools $20M.

The thing is...the networks are not going to continue to pay the Big 12 $20M minus TX and OU plus Cincinnati and UCF. There's no way in hell they would sign such a deal. It's been acknowledged that all these media deals have composition clauses. Plain sense indicates it's true, as there's no way Fox and ESPN would ever get on the hook paying that gutted conference $20M a year, even if they did retain TX and OU home game rights.

So then what happens? So the Big 12 replaces TX/OU with Cincy/UCF. The networks renegotiate their deal down to say $8M a year, because it's not worth any more than that. What about the OU/TX rights? Do the networks still pay the Big 12 $20m for each of those?

The idea that if TX and OU left, the Big 12 could simply add any two teams, and collect their TV contract + TX/OU's payment simply defies logic. No network would agree to such a thing.

I don't think anyone in a major conference is going anywhere. But the idea that the GOR protects the "little guys" just doesn't seem true to me. I think it's there to protect the networks first and foremost, to make it painful for a WVU or TCU (or Maryland) to leave. But if the worst happened and TX/OU left, the networks would be fighting to set aside the GOR as hard if not harder than the departing schools.

There's no scenario I can imagine where the Big 12 continues as a conference getting paid $20M/yr for the length of the contract if TX/OU leave. So it will be negotiated away, and the Big 12 won't have a whole lot of leverage. They will need to take what they can get. Or more likely they will dissolve, so they can all pursue membership somewhere without the hindrance of a GOR.

Why would they not continue to pay $20 million if they still had the Texas and OU rights? What have the networks lost?

Texas @ Baylor, Texas @ TCU, Texas @ KSU, OU @ OSU, OU @ WVU, etc etc.

All the away games those schools played are now replaced with UCF @ Baylor, etc.

Plus the fact that without UT or OU in that conference, there is no more interest in that than the Mountain West. The Mountain West is a good conference, but it doesn't make $20M a year.

(09-18-2013 03:18 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  They can talk all they want but:

1) Even UT can't just shrug at a multi hundred million buy out

2) Nobody will take them with LHN and ESPN has no reason to let them out of it for the purpose of destroying one of their properties and driving up their costs.

3) The 3 red headed step children won't just let UT walk away and demote them to G5 teams. They are totally dependent on UT and won't just let them go.

Logical arguments won't get you anywhere with this crowd. The majority have a vested interest in ignoring it in favor of whatever will help elevate their school - or demote everyone in the B12 to their status...

After all, if you can't build yourself up, you can always tear somebody down. Either way, your self esteem is improved...

(09-18-2013 10:30 AM)CommuterBob Wrote:  http://www.big12sports.com/fls/10410/pdf...Bylaws.pdf

The Big XII bylaws are linked above. They have a new withdrawal procedure that is distinctly different from their old bylaws, mostly due to the incorporation of the GoR. Basically, it's like this:

Notice required: 18-months minimum
Exit fee (now called a "buyout"): 2x annual revenue distribution (not just TV money, all revenue), but really they forfeit their last year of revenue, and then pay an additional year's worth of revenue upon departure.

But there's a couple of extra wrinkles:

A member can be considered as having given notice of withdrawal by either:

A - actually giving notice; or
B - if a supermajority of the remaining membership (by vote) feels that a school has either:
-made statements that they intend to leave
-made attempts to breach the GoR or the bylaws
-been made an offer to join another conference and does not summarily reject that offer within 12 hours
-makes actions that are not in the conference's best interest

Then the GoR:

Quote:• if (A) by legal action or otherwise, a Withdrawing Member, or any other person or entity, attempts to challenge or oppose or interfere with, or challenges or opposes or interferes with,
(i) the payment of the Buyout Amount by the Withdrawing Member or the withholding of the Distribution Withholding by the Conference,
(ii) the enforcement by the Conference of its rights under the Grant of Rights Agreement or the performance by the Withdrawing Member of its obligations under the Grant of Rights Agreement,
or (iii) the right of the Conference’s telecast partners to televise games of the Withdrawing Member under the terms of the Grant of Rights Agreement during its then-remaining term;

or (B) for any other reason the Conference’s telecast partners are unable to produce and telecast games of the Withdrawing Member during the then-remaining term of the Grant of Rights Agreement or the Conference is unable to realize the revenues relating to those games from its telecast partners,
• then the Members agree that such actions, in breach of the Withdrawing Member’s agreements in these Bylaws, cause additional damage to the Conference and therefore that the Buyout Amount shall be increased by, and shall also include, and the Withdrawing Member shall be obligated to pay to the Conference immediately upon the occurrence of any of the foregoing events, the amount of all actual loss, damage, costs, or expenses whatsoever (including but not limited to lost revenues, damage to reputation and public image, and damage to relationships with related parties) incurred by the Conference or any of its remaining Members directly or indirectly related to that challenge or opposition, whether economic or otherwise.

Each of the Members agrees that Withdrawal of a Member contrary to its commitment to the Conference and the other Members pursuant to Section 3.1 above would cause damage and financial hardship to the Conference and the other Members without regard to the continued enforcement of the Grant of Rights Agreement, that the financial consequences to the Conference and its remaining Members cannot be measured or estimated with certainty at this time, and that the payment of the Buyout Amount is a reasonable method of compensating the Conference and the other Members for such damage and financial hardship and shall not be construed as a penalty.

In other words, a departing school that attempts to breach the GoR, breaches the GoR, or fails to pay the buyout, then the conference will sue the bejesus out of them.

Also, per the bylaws, a withdrawing member is not entitled to payments after withdrawal.

Quote:The Grant of Rights Agreement which will remain in full force and effect as to such Withdrawing Member and the Withdrawing Member shall continue to be fully bound under the Grant of Rights Agreement after Withdrawal for the remainder of the term of any Grant of Rights Agreement as if it remained a Member of the Conference, but the Withdrawing Member shall not be entitled to payment of any amounts or any other benefits arising under the Grant of Rights Agreement after Withdrawal.

Not that any of it wouldn't be challenged in court (and an interesting provision of the buyout is that it increases if it gets challenged), though, but it seems pretty solid to me.

Courts have ruled that schools own their own media rights and can do with them as they will. Even though a school has freely joined their rights with others, does not mean that they have to honor the GOR or its bylaws. If a school wishes to exit the GOR they merely need to give notice and negotiate the liquid damages. The Conference nor the purchaser of those rights can withhold Money from the school and if a lawsuit is filed it must be adjudicated in the state of the departing school. Where the Conference offices reside has no bearing on the matter. Where ESPN or Fox offices are located doesn't matter. Neither ESPN or FOX claim jurisdiction in any contracts they enter into.

See what I mean, 10th?

(09-18-2013 06:01 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  See what I mean, 10th?

Your welcome.

(09-18-2013 06:29 PM)Dasville Wrote:  

(09-18-2013 06:01 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  See what I mean, 10th?

Your welcome.

I knew somebody would come through for me...

(09-18-2013 04:55 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(09-18-2013 03:18 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  They can talk all they want but:

1) Even UT can't just shrug at a multi hundred million buy out

2) Nobody will take them with LHN and ESPN has no reason to let them out of it for the purpose of destroying one of their properties and driving up their costs.

3) The 3 red headed step children won't just let UT walk away and demote them to G5 teams. They are totally dependent on UT and won't just let them go.

Logical arguments won't get you anywhere with this crowd. The majority have a vested interest in ignoring it in favor of whatever will help elevate their school - or demote everyone in the B12 to their status...

After all, if you can't build yourself up, you can always tear somebody down. Either way, your self esteem is improved...

Obviously 10th is biased and wants Tech, Oklahoma and Oklahoma St to suffer and I can't blame him. I want the aggies to suffer as well and they will when johnny autograph and sumlin leave for greener pastures. The aggies might be getting paid but the rest of Texas will be laughing at them when they go back to their middle of the road Big 12 days.

Make no mistake about it though, the PAC needs the state of Texas for TV viewers and those 3 schools( Tech, OU and OSU) will no doubt fit their needs. Larry Scott knows it and Deloss knows it. The question remains who is the 4th school?

I like West Virginia and I hope they land in a power conference but the Big 12 is dead.

my beef with the b12 is that they dont give a sh.it about academics or non football sports. football may drive the bus, but all power conferences should at the very least have a minimal standard when it comes to that stuff and the b12 imo cheats because they are the only power conference that doesnt abide by that. they put money above all else and put the best interests of texas/ou above the best interests of the conference.

then theres the whole b12 homer aspect who fail to grasp just how bad they lost in conf realignment. thinking having a blueprint size thats half the size of any other p5 conference is a good thing, or the way they thought they had a chance of getting fsu, or thinking that wvu & tcu were quality adds. but my personal favorite from texas homers "aggie left cuz we were just too good for them."

thats why i hate this conference and thats why i know that it is destined to fail. it might be 2 years or 12 years but it already has headstone & a fresh 6 foot hole waiting for it.

(09-18-2013 08:09 PM)john01992 Wrote:  my beef with the b12 is that they dont give a sh.it about academics or non football sports. football may drive the bus, but all power conferences should at the very least have a minimal standard when it comes to that stuff and the b12 imo cheats because they are the only power conference that doesnt abide by that. they put money above all else and put the best interests of texas/ou above the best interests of the conference.

then theres the whole b12 homer aspect who fail to grasp just how bad they lost in conf realignment. thinking having a blueprint size thats half the size of any other p5 conference is a good thing, or the way they thought they had a chance of getting fsu, or thinking that wvu & tcu were quality adds. but my personal favorite from texas homers "aggie left cuz we were just too good for them."

thats why i hate this conference and thats why i know that it is destined to fail. it might be 2 years or 12 years but it already has headstone & a fresh 6 foot hole waiting for it.

Your hatred and obsession with the Big 12 is bizarre.

(09-18-2013 08:31 PM)Big Frog II Wrote:  

(09-18-2013 08:09 PM)john01992 Wrote:  my beef with the b12 is that they dont give a sh.it about academics or non football sports. football may drive the bus, but all power conferences should at the very least have a minimal standard when it comes to that stuff and the b12 imo cheats because they are the only power conference that doesnt abide by that. they put money above all else and put the best interests of texas/ou above the best interests of the conference.

then theres the whole b12 homer aspect who fail to grasp just how bad they lost in conf realignment. thinking having a blueprint size thats half the size of any other p5 conference is a good thing, or the way they thought they had a chance of getting fsu, or thinking that wvu & tcu were quality adds. but my personal favorite from texas homers "aggie left cuz we were just too good for them."

thats why i hate this conference and thats why i know that it is destined to fail. it might be 2 years or 12 years but it already has headstone & a fresh 6 foot hole waiting for it.

Your hatred and obsession with the Big 12 is bizarre.

i just hate what they stand for and what they represent. i swear that conference is nothing more than a texas circle jerk

Could someone link me to ANY media contract between a network and a conference? How about the jurisdiction section of said contract. Can the Conference exit the agreement? If so, what is the exit fee?