(02-01-2013 12:36 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 12:28 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 12:23 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 12:16 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 08:33 AM)stever20 Wrote:  Of the additions, yes they do need to be good right now. we can't afford for Dayton to come in and be 2-16 1st year. It'd make us look stupid as hell when VCU is doing very well.

F*** yes we can! Someone's got to come in and do it. Everyone can't go 9-9. We need a team to go 14-4, 15-3 and get high seeds...which means a team goes 4-14, 5-13, etc.

There are only so many wins available.

You are so ******* full of **** it's not funny. if Dayton is 2-16 and VCU is 28-4 and making the NCAA tourney, we look like petty morons. You take the best teams available, and by ANY measure, VCU is that, while Dayton is not. You can not debate that.

There is no ******* guarantee that we would have a team go 14-4 or 15-3. Dayton can be 2-16 and we still have the champion going 13-5 or 12-6.

That will happen regardless. Someone in this league is going to be bad and lose a lot of games and some team on the outside will be looking great. You are so short sighted and just want instant gratification.

Guess what? VCU won't going to be coming so start getting over it.

Gess what- the invites haven't been announced yet. It's not a lock at all. if VCU makes a run again, especially if they make the final 8 or better- it will be IMPOSSIBLE to ignore them. Fox won't let them ignore them.

The league HAS to come out of the shoot fast. You are really delusional if you think for a second that if we have a bad first year or two that we will be able to recover anywhere near where we're starting. DOn't give me this 12 year tv deal- tv is great, but if we're average, recruiting will get destroyed. Instead of folks looking at Marquette, they'll be looking at Wisconsin. That's the problem.

I don't get the idea that if we have a four bid first year we are forever doomed. Every new team will have to adjust to the rest if the C7. The money and style of play will be new to them. Some will do better than expected and some will do worse. Our future lies on how we do years 3-7. That's when our narrative will be written. Not year 1 and 2.

(02-01-2013 12:17 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 08:35 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  1. Good for Saint Louis. If they're joining, they better be good.
2. So VCU's Final Four run is a fluke, but SLU's win over Butler proves they're for real. Okey dokey.

No, but it proves they're not the dumpster fire many of your VCU-heads are claiming.

Not really--the fear of taking VCU is that their Final Four run is a fluke, right? That they'll get into the league and start DePauling all over the place. Then we've got this large public school with not-impressive academics who's not good in basketball with an empty gym because Shaka Smart went to go coach Memphis, pro or college.

That's the case against, right?

(Not sure exactly what those fans in Richmond are going to do instead, though. Netflix gets old.)

Apply the same thinking to SLU when they're playing Providence, Seton Hall, St Johns and Depaul instead of URI, Duquesne, Fordham and GW. They fall back a step. They have a nice arena, but is a 13-15 team going to fill it on nights when the opponent is an on-the-bubble Creighton? Is the arena really going to get recruits to want to join a losing Billikens team when they could go to Mizzou or Illinois or Kansas or Wisconsin or Arkansas or Indiana or Iowa State, all within a 6 or so hour drive of Saint Louis?

VCU's next coach can point at the rafters and tell kids that VCU is a Final Four contender and the ACC outside of Duke and Carolina is over-rated and yesterday's news. What's SLU's coach going to say when a recruit asks about the Big 12, Big Ten, SEC school who's looking at him?

But they're private and Catholic. So yay that.

(02-01-2013 12:56 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 12:17 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 08:35 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  1. Good for Saint Louis. If they're joining, they better be good.
2. So VCU's Final Four run is a fluke, but SLU's win over Butler proves they're for real. Okey dokey.

No, but it proves they're not the dumpster fire many of your VCU-heads are claiming.

Not really--the fear of taking VCU is that their Final Four run is a fluke, right? That they'll get into the league and start DePauling all over the place. Then we've got this large public school with not-impressive academics who's not good in basketball with an empty gym because Shaka Smart went to go coach Memphis, pro or college.

That's the case against, right?

(Not sure exactly what those fans in Richmond are going to do instead, though. Netflix gets old.)

Apply the same thinking to SLU when they're playing Providence, Seton Hall, St Johns and Depaul instead of URI, Duquesne, Fordham and GW. They fall back a step. They have a nice arena, but is a 13-15 team going to fill it on nights when the opponent is an on-the-bubble Creighton? Is the arena really going to get recruits to want to join a losing Billikens team when they could go to Mizzou or Illinois or Kansas or Wisconsin or Arkansas or Indiana or Iowa State, all within a 6 or so hour drive of Saint Louis?

VCU's next coach can point at the rafters and tell kids that VCU is a Final Four contender and the ACC outside of Duke and Carolina is over-rated and yesterday's news. What's SLU's coach going to say when a recruit asks about the Big 12, Big Ten, SEC school who's looking at him?

But they're private and Catholic. So yay that.

It works both ways. If vcu's run is a indication that they can contend then St. Louis making the tournament for the second straight year is an indication of theirs as well.

(02-01-2013 12:50 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  I don't get the idea that if we have a four bid first year we are forever doomed. Every new team will have to adjust to the rest if the C7. The money and style of play will be new to them. Some will do better than expected and some will do worse. Our future lies on how we do years 3-7. That's when our narrative will be written. Not year 1 and 2.

Year one, the new Big East will be a story. Are we for real, or are we a sad shadow of what we were? That's going to be a big story. We will have that spotlight in year one--can a non-football conference be a power conference in basketball? Can the traditional Catholic powers survive without Louisville, UConn, Syracuse, Pitt etc.?

And the people came shouting, "What's all this about...?"
They looked! And they stared with their eyes popping out!
Then they cheered and they cheered and they CHEERED more and more!
They'd never seen anything like it before!
My goodness my gracious! they shouted "My word!"
It's something brand new

--it's an elite basketball conference that don't play no football.

OR---

It's a huge flop, a failure, an EPIC FAIL if it's still 2011 or so. 3 bids? No Final Four? What a joke! They're the big-city Mountain West, the A-10 on steroids, Fox wasted their money! etc.

The spotlight will never be that bright again. Year One will be crunch time.

(02-01-2013 01:05 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  It works both ways. If vcu's run is a indication that they can contend then St. Louis making the tournament for the second straight year is an indication of theirs as well.

VCU's run says that they can make the Final Four. SLU's back-to-back NCAA appearances say they can make the NCAAs. So if VCU's claim is hot air, they're still making the NCAAs. If SLU's claim is overrated, they're rocking the NIT (or not).

The mark against SLU is the ten-year NCAA drought before last year.

(02-01-2013 01:05 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 12:50 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  I don't get the idea that if we have a four bid first year we are forever doomed. Every new team will have to adjust to the rest if the C7. The money and style of play will be new to them. Some will do better than expected and some will do worse. Our future lies on how we do years 3-7. That's when our narrative will be written. Not year 1 and 2.

Year one, the new Big East will be a story. Are we for real, or are we a sad shadow of what we were? That's going to be a big story. We will have that spotlight in year one--can a non-football conference be a power conference in basketball? Can the traditional Catholic powers survive without Louisville, UConn, Syracuse, Pitt etc.?

And the people came shouting, "What's all this about...?"
They looked! And they stared with their eyes popping out!
Then they cheered and they cheered and they CHEERED more and more!
They'd never seen anything like it before!
My goodness my gracious! they shouted "My word!"
It's something brand new

--it's an elite basketball conference that don't play no football.

OR---

It's a huge flop, a failure, an EPIC FAIL if it's still 2011 or so. 3 bids? No Final Four? What a joke! They're the big-city Mountain West, the A-10 on steroids, Fox wasted their money! etc.

The spotlight will never be that bright again. Year One will be crunch time.

Great then the next 5 years we get 5-6 bids with 3 final fours. Then what?

(02-01-2013 01:13 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 01:05 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 12:50 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  I don't get the idea that if we have a four bid first year we are forever doomed. Every new team will have to adjust to the rest if the C7. The money and style of play will be new to them. Some will do better than expected and some will do worse. Our future lies on how we do years 3-7. That's when our narrative will be written. Not year 1 and 2.

Year one, the new Big East will be a story. Are we for real, or are we a sad shadow of what we were? That's going to be a big story. We will have that spotlight in year one--can a non-football conference be a power conference in basketball? Can the traditional Catholic powers survive without Louisville, UConn, Syracuse, Pitt etc.?

And the people came shouting, "What's all this about...?"
They looked! And they stared with their eyes popping out!
Then they cheered and they cheered and they CHEERED more and more!
They'd never seen anything like it before!
My goodness my gracious! they shouted "My word!"
It's something brand new

--it's an elite basketball conference that don't play no football.

OR---

It's a huge flop, a failure, an EPIC FAIL if it's still 2011 or so. 3 bids? No Final Four? What a joke! They're the big-city Mountain West, the A-10 on steroids, Fox wasted their money! etc.

The spotlight will never be that bright again. Year One will be crunch time.

Great then the next 5 years we get 5-6 bids with 3 final fours. Then what?

I think the cloud of negativity costs us a bid or two over the next year or two. If it's one of our schools making 2-3 Final Fours, then the narrative is that we're one good program and a bunch of stiffs who can't get out of the first or second round.

Think how the Big East football conference was perceived after 2005--pretty much no matter what they did, they couldn't shake the cloud over them.

Once a perception is set, it is incredibly hard to change. In year one, the perception of the Big East will be like wet concrete. After year one, it will be like regular concrete.

I've never met a bigger bunch if negative nellies in my life.

I think we're being realistic. I think in particular the fact that it's a split. We will be compared to the fb programs. Period. We'll also be compared to the Big 5 FBS conferences. If we don't meet that comparison well early on, the narritive will be just like what we've seen with BE football.

(02-01-2013 12:48 PM)stever20 Wrote:  The thing to me is this...

average joe fan. they can watch either Georgetown/VCU or Georgetown/Dayton- which game would be more likely to be even shown on national tv? Which one would avg joe fan watch?

Heck, I could say that VCU would be 3rd at worst behind only Xavier and Butler(and frankly, maybe only 2nd to Butler).

Again, THIS YEAR.

(02-01-2013 02:05 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 12:48 PM)stever20 Wrote:  The thing to me is this...

average joe fan. they can watch either Georgetown/VCU or Georgetown/Dayton- which game would be more likely to be even shown on national tv? Which one would avg joe fan watch?

Heck, I could say that VCU would be 3rd at worst behind only Xavier and Butler(and frankly, maybe only 2nd to Butler).

Again, THIS YEAR.

Dayton wouldn't be the answer for quite a few years now quite frankly.

(02-01-2013 01:05 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 12:50 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  I don't get the idea that if we have a four bid first year we are forever doomed. Every new team will have to adjust to the rest if the C7. The money and style of play will be new to them. Some will do better than expected and some will do worse. Our future lies on how we do years 3-7. That's when our narrative will be written. Not year 1 and 2.

Year one, the new Big East will be a story. Are we for real, or are we a sad shadow of what we were? That's going to be a big story. We will have that spotlight in year one--can a non-football conference be a power conference in basketball? Can the traditional Catholic powers survive without Louisville, UConn, Syracuse, Pitt etc.?

And the people came shouting, "What's all this about...?"
They looked! And they stared with their eyes popping out!
Then they cheered and they cheered and they CHEERED more and more!
They'd never seen anything like it before!
My goodness my gracious! they shouted "My word!"
It's something brand new

--it's an elite basketball conference that don't play no football.

OR---

It's a huge flop, a failure, an EPIC FAIL if it's still 2011 or so. 3 bids? No Final Four? What a joke! They're the big-city Mountain West, the A-10 on steroids, Fox wasted their money! etc.

The spotlight will never be that bright again. Year One will be crunch time.

Oh stop. This league will have critics pissing on us regardless. It's already happening if you haven't noticed. We won't be the top conference, we dont have a blue blood program at the top, and we don't have huge alumni bases to drive fan interest/debate. Please stop acting like NOT being the greatest basketball conference ever is a failure.

Did you never pay attention to what people said about the Big East? You can't stop it. God, you two are putting so much pressure on the 1st year you are guaranteeing yourself big appointment. You're looking for 1985 again.

I would put at least a range of years where we need to make a statement in the tournament, but year 1 is not the end-all-be-all of this conference. In year 5, if we send 2 teams to the Final Four, guess what? No one cares about year 1 and only getting 1 team in the S16 or whatever scenario you're worried about.

(02-01-2013 12:36 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 12:28 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 12:23 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 12:16 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 08:33 AM)stever20 Wrote:  Of the additions, yes they do need to be good right now. we can't afford for Dayton to come in and be 2-16 1st year. It'd make us look stupid as hell when VCU is doing very well.

F*** yes we can! Someone's got to come in and do it. Everyone can't go 9-9. We need a team to go 14-4, 15-3 and get high seeds...which means a team goes 4-14, 5-13, etc.

There are only so many wins available.

You are so ******* full of **** it's not funny. if Dayton is 2-16 and VCU is 28-4 and making the NCAA tourney, we look like petty morons. You take the best teams available, and by ANY measure, VCU is that, while Dayton is not. You can not debate that.

There is no ******* guarantee that we would have a team go 14-4 or 15-3. Dayton can be 2-16 and we still have the champion going 13-5 or 12-6.

That will happen regardless. Someone in this league is going to be bad and lose a lot of games and some team on the outside will be looking great. You are so short sighted and just want instant gratification.

Guess what? VCU won't going to be coming so start getting over it.

Gess what- the invites haven't been announced yet. It's not a lock at all. if VCU makes a run again, especially if they make the final 8 or better- it will be IMPOSSIBLE to ignore them. Fox won't let them ignore them.

The league HAS to come out of the shoot fast. You are really delusional if you think for a second that if we have a bad first year or two that we will be able to recover anywhere near where we're starting. DOn't give me this 12 year tv deal- tv is great, but if we're average, recruiting will get destroyed. Instead of folks looking at Marquette, they'll be looking at Wisconsin. That's the problem.

All I'm saying is you should really start getting used to no VCU. You guys have the most negative view of this league - no wonder why you're terrified others will see that too.

year 1 may not be, but it definitely isn't year 5.

The thing is, if years 1 and 2 aren't good(and if the members aren't much next year in last year before the new league)- recruiting starts getting really impacted. You won't get 2 F4 in year 5 if recruiting goes down.

(02-01-2013 02:19 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 12:36 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 12:28 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 12:23 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 12:16 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  F*** yes we can! Someone's got to come in and do it. Everyone can't go 9-9. We need a team to go 14-4, 15-3 and get high seeds...which means a team goes 4-14, 5-13, etc.

There are only so many wins available.

You are so ******* full of **** it's not funny. if Dayton is 2-16 and VCU is 28-4 and making the NCAA tourney, we look like petty morons. You take the best teams available, and by ANY measure, VCU is that, while Dayton is not. You can not debate that.

There is no ******* guarantee that we would have a team go 14-4 or 15-3. Dayton can be 2-16 and we still have the champion going 13-5 or 12-6.

That will happen regardless. Someone in this league is going to be bad and lose a lot of games and some team on the outside will be looking great. You are so short sighted and just want instant gratification.

Guess what? VCU won't going to be coming so start getting over it.

Gess what- the invites haven't been announced yet. It's not a lock at all. if VCU makes a run again, especially if they make the final 8 or better- it will be IMPOSSIBLE to ignore them. Fox won't let them ignore them.

The league HAS to come out of the shoot fast. You are really delusional if you think for a second that if we have a bad first year or two that we will be able to recover anywhere near where we're starting. DOn't give me this 12 year tv deal- tv is great, but if we're average, recruiting will get destroyed. Instead of folks looking at Marquette, they'll be looking at Wisconsin. That's the problem.

All I'm saying is you should really start getting used to no VCU. You guys have the most negative view of this league - no wonder why you're terrified others will see that too.

and that would be a HUGE mistake. Hopefully, VCU goes on another run and they get in period.

And, I'm not negative, I'm realistic. You are acting like folks will just give the league a free pass if we aren't in the top 5 for the first few years- and that just isn't going to happen. Period. Once we're out, we're not getting back. That's the landscape of today.

(02-01-2013 01:59 PM)stever20 Wrote:  I think we're being realistic. I think in particular the fact that it's a split. We will be compared to the fb programs. Period. We'll also be compared to the Big 5 FBS conferences. If we don't meet that comparison well early on, the narritive will be just like what we've seen with BE football.

If we're being compared to the football schools, then we're failing. Besides Memphis, UConn will be down a little bit, Temple hasn't been to a Sweet 16 since 2001, and Cincinnati's just coming back to life. The rest of that league is the flaming trash pit we ran screaming from. Things break badly for them, (UConn down, league RPI bumps a bubble team to the NIT) they're a 2-bid league.

Wait, by "fb programs" did you mean the Aresco League, or the Big Ten, Big XII and SEC?

(02-01-2013 12:56 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 12:17 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 08:35 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  1. Good for Saint Louis. If they're joining, they better be good.
2. So VCU's Final Four run is a fluke, but SLU's win over Butler proves they're for real. Okey dokey.

No, but it proves they're not the dumpster fire many of your VCU-heads are claiming.

Not really--the fear of taking VCU is that their Final Four run is a fluke, right? That they'll get into the league and start DePauling all over the place. Then we've got this large public school with not-impressive academics who's not good in basketball with an empty gym because Shaka Smart went to go coach Memphis, pro or college.

That's the case against, right?

(Not sure exactly what those fans in Richmond are going to do instead, though. Netflix gets old.)

Apply the same thinking to SLU when they're playing Providence, Seton Hall, St Johns and Depaul instead of URI, Duquesne, Fordham and GW. They fall back a step. They have a nice arena, but is a 13-15 team going to fill it on nights when the opponent is an on-the-bubble Creighton? Is the arena really going to get recruits to want to join a losing Billikens team when they could go to Mizzou or Illinois or Kansas or Wisconsin or Arkansas or Indiana or Iowa State, all within a 6 or so hour drive of Saint Louis?

VCU's next coach can point at the rafters and tell kids that VCU is a Final Four contender and the ACC outside of Duke and Carolina is over-rated and yesterday's news. What's SLU's coach going to say when a recruit asks about the Big 12, Big Ten, SEC school who's looking at him?

But they're private and Catholic. So yay that.

I don't think anyone thinks they'll DePaul all over the place (nice new verb there though). But all those arguments fall to VCU too who will have to play tougher teams on a consistent basis than they ever did - and will start losing a lot of them to teams they were better then. Every team except for Xavier quite frankly is a concern and will probably have an adjustment period.

(02-01-2013 02:15 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  You're looking for 1985 again.

Nahh, 3 Sweet Sixteens will do.

Quote:I would put at least a range of years where we need to make a statement in the tournament, but year 1 is not the end-all-be-all of this conference. In year 5, if we send 2 teams to the Final Four, guess what? No one cares about year 1 and only getting 1 team in the S16 or whatever scenario you're worried about.

Year 2, I agree. Year 5, that concrete's pretty hard.

(02-01-2013 02:24 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 01:59 PM)stever20 Wrote:  I think we're being realistic. I think in particular the fact that it's a split. We will be compared to the fb programs. Period. We'll also be compared to the Big 5 FBS conferences. If we don't meet that comparison well early on, the narritive will be just like what we've seen with BE football.

If we're being compared to the football schools, then we're failing. Besides Memphis, UConn will be down a little bit, Temple hasn't been to a Sweet 16 since 2001, and Cincinnati's just coming back to life. The rest of that league is the flaming trash pit we ran screaming from. Things break badly for them, (UConn down, league RPI bumps a bubble team to the NIT) they're a 2-bid league.

Wait, by "fb programs" did you mean the Aresco League, or the Big Ten, Big XII and SEC?

I meant Aresco league. We will be compared to them. You present the breaking badly for them. What if Memphis gets rolling with the better recruiting, same with Temple(seeing more teams will help them in the tourney), Cincy seems like they're on the upswing, and UConn has had a good year this year. Then another team(USF, UCF, Houston) gets a bid. They're a 5 bid conference.

(02-01-2013 12:18 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  They have shown they are willing to spend money on a coach. Their coach didn't leave for another job, he was sick. Also this new coach has them half a game out of first in the A-10 and as of right now in the NCAA.

It doesn't matter how they lost their coach, just that he won't be guiding the team. This year the coach is still playing with Majerus's players, in a system very similar to his.

What happens when he has to recruit new players?
What if he tries to implement his own system?

These aren't questions you can know ahead of time. And they drive very real doubts for SLU's future regardless of whether or not they join the C7 (combined with decades of mediocrity).

It is totally possible that the coach they have now will develop into a guy like Shaka Smart and guide SLU to new heights. It is also possible that he busts in the next couple of years and then SLU has to rebuild.

In the first case, the C7 is fine regardless of whether or not the pick SLU. They can simply add SLU later when they achieve that level of success.

However, the second case is a negative only if the C7 add SLU. You can't kick people out of the conference nearly as easily as adding them. I would rather not add a team and have them succeed outside of the C7 then add a team and have them fail.