(05-30-2012 05:56 PM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  They aren't a figment of Katz imagination. C of C was invited by the CAA already a few years back but chose to stay in the SoCon. There are other articles about Davidson and C of C posted on the FCS board.

I mean take a look at the non Summit options for the Horizon. RMU, NKU, Morehead St., Chicago St. No one is going to drop down from MVC or A10 to join the HL. Chi St. was kicked out of the Summit. Sorry but anyone w/ inside info isn't believable on a message board. Even if your souce was the Horizon commish. Too many people w/ fake inside info have ruined it for everyone.

If the CAA went all football, they'd have 11/12. So maybe they think 1 or 2 fb and 1 bball school if they can get C of C or Davidson, who may have changed there mind after the recent success of the CAA. I don't know.

Exactly the problem. Katz is thinking about what happened in 2005. The CAA has become a football league since then and the world has changed dramatically. In fact, the internal battle the CAA faces right now is Hofstra trying to rally the basketball faction to block Stony Brook and other football additions, while at the same time using the new AD's hoops connections to try sneaking into the A-10. The CAA needs to ditch the Big East style hybrid and go for a Southern Conference type 9/3 or at least 8/4 alignment. The CAA would have actually been better off, as far as this issue goes, if George Mason had left. What they have right now is a mess with 4 football schools and 5 basketball schools unable to agree on which direction to go.

As for the Horizon League, none of those schools you threw out are among the options I heard. Nor do I care if you or anyone else doesn't believe me. I am not claiming to be an insider or a realignment guru. I heard something that a reliable source says was being discussed. Not agreed upon. Just discussed. That is all. It is not any of the places listed above, and it may not happen anyway, so that is all I have to say on the issue. My point is that every option these conferences discuss doesn't make it to the media. The other point is that people in the media write with a slant based on what they want to happen. Certain people wanted George Mason in the A-10, and they wrote like it was a done deal, and they were completely wrong.

(05-30-2012 09:43 PM)nert Wrote:  

(05-29-2012 11:10 PM)Lolly Popp Wrote:  

(05-29-2012 08:49 PM)nert Wrote:  I disagree for two reasons with this comment:
1) Oakland U is not a garbage school in men's BB
2) even if the Horizon waited a year, OaklandU would probably still be the choice or one of the finalists

The thing is, if the Horizon was so hot to trot for Oakland, something would have been announced already. Fans are continuing to willfully ignore the biggest elephant in the entire room, which is that Detroit does not want to share a league with Oakland, and the private schools are more than happy to back them up on this issue.

The other thing I heard from a very trustworthy source is that the Horizon has been looking at an under the radar non-Summit option, but needed more time to make sure it would be the right fit for everybody, and this immediate move by Butler might cause everyone to have to hold their noses and do something they don't want.

The Horizon may have to negotiate to get UDM's permission to add OaklandU - and UDM may be able to block it - but it wouldn't be for the betterment of the Horizon League. There just isn't much in or near the Horizon's footprint that adds value to the league. OaklandU does. It doesn't replace Butler - but the HL couldn't attract a team that could replace Butler (not with what they've become lately).

I can't come up with a better add for the Butler-less HL at this point of the gettable candidates - can you? This is why I still contend - OaklandU would either be the pick or one of the finalists. Their biggest obstacle isn't being deserving of entry - but getting past UDM's short-sightedness. Perhaps UDM isn't even going to attempt to block it this time. Who knows?

News story...

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketba...in-horizon

...so it's not just posters that think OaklandU is the obvious frontrunner. The Horizon League would be foolish not to consider them. The question is only if UDM is too insecure to allow them in.

Frankly, UDM risks nothing. They are ignored by all forms of media in the Detroit area. During BB season, the Detroit area is "all-MSU all the time". And UMich gets a lot of press - even when they clearly don't deserve any. The MAC schools get some coverage during FB season - but not much in BB in the Detroit press.

Putting OaklandU and UDM in the same conference may shine the light a bit brighter on both of them, help them both recruit better talent from Detroit and improve both programs.

Speaking of fan support: Callahan (which is too big for UDM) doesn't draw flies. OaklandU draws well in its arena (although it's much, much smaller than Callahan). I imagine the two of them head to head could easily sell out the O-rena and maybe put a serious dent in the cavernous Callahan Hall if they played regularly for something meaningful.

(05-29-2012 05:35 PM)stever20 Wrote:  Guess Derby has another update!!!!

yep, and fixed your post for ya

Detroit's objection is a gigantic hurdle for Oakland to overcome, regardless of how right or wrong it is, and people should assume nothing at this point.

(06-01-2012 04:35 AM)Lolly Popp Wrote:  Detroit's objection is a gigantic hurdle for Oakland to overcome, regardless of how right or wrong it is, and people should assume nothing at this point.

what options did you hear? i dont care the source, just the candidates

I've heard UMKC's name tossed about in years past on CollegeSportsInfo, but it doesn't really make sense for the Horizon given the tight geography of the league and the historically poor performance of the Kangaroos on the court. It also really doesn't make much sense for UMKC given the Summit's new members along the I-29 corridor.

(06-02-2012 02:57 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  I've heard UMKC's name tossed about in years past on CollegeSportsInfo, but it doesn't really make sense for the Horizon given the tight geography of the league and the historically poor performance of the Kangaroos on the court. It also really doesn't make much sense for UMKC given the Summit's new members along the I-29 corridor.

The Horizon League could try to pull in the whole I-29 corridor into the conference and expand to 14 with the Wisconsin schools heading west.

I: North Dakota St, South Dakota St, South Dakota, Nebraska-Omaha, Missouri-Kansas City, Wisconsin-Milwaukee, Wisconsin-Green Bay

II: Loyola Illinois, Illinois-Chicago, Valparaiso, Detroit, Wright State, Cleveland St, Youngstown St.

The Horizon League could then sponsor football with the Dakota schools, Youngstown St and Milwaukee starting up a football program.

OR

Don't bother with the Dakota schools and just add UMKC and UNO for their markets while adding IPFW for travel.

I: Nebraska-Omaha, Missouri-Kansas City, Wisconsin-Milwaukee, Wisconsin-Green Bay, Illinois-Chicago, Loyola (Illinois)

II: Valparaiso, IP-Ft Wayne, Detroit, Wright St., Cleveland St., Youngstown St.

This way you're adding a few markets like Kansas City, Omaha and Ft. Wayne to the Horizon to replace the loss of the Indianapolis market.

Conferences either want to be a football conference or a basketball one. A move like this clearly says that the Horizon wants to be a serious mid major basketball conference with a significant regional TV deal.

(06-01-2012 07:44 AM)gosports1 Wrote:  what options did you hear? i dont care the source, just the candidates

I'm not even going to do that, out of respect for my source, but will just let things play out. I'm simply saying that Detroit's unwillingness to share a league with Oakland will be difficult to overcome, regardless of how senseless it might seem to fans on the internet, and the Horizon is looking at a variety of options, some of which have not been leaked online, but no decision has been made on which way to go.

SIU Edwardsville would be a worthy choice. A fast growing university with a rising hoops program (no football) and the university with the largest enrollment in metro St. Louis. Would also get the Horizon in a new large market (metro St. Louis) where presently only 1 D1 hoops program is present and no NBA to compete with.

St. Louis is also a much larger market than Indy (IUPUI) or Ft Wayne (IPFW).

Add SIU E(St Louis) to Loyola & UIC(CHicago) UW Milwaukee, UW Green Bay, Detroit Mercy, Valparaiso (NW IN) Cleveland St, Youngstown St & Wright St(Dayton) and you not only have a solid presence in Ohio, IL & Wisky but in southern Illinois and Missouri. A nice add IMO

SIUE may be possible, but their location stretches the footprint with no obvious travel partner. The Horizon needs to maintain its bus leauge status: SIUE really stretches that for Cleveland St and Youngstown St. SIUE also doesn't have great basketball facilities - more like a glorified large high school gym in Indiana.

IUPUI if it moved its games off campus would keep the league footprint identical and kind of spite Butler. Academically (at least from a grad level), IUPUI could gain support.

If NKU had moved up earlier, they would have been the slam dunk choice: great arena, perfect travel partner for Wright St, metro area, growing school.

No way would the Horizon go west of the Mississippi: eventually that river will be the dividing line between the Summit and Horizon.

The other plus that SIUE has over IUPUI or IPFW or even Oakland is that Indiana and Michigan are really saturated with great hoops programs that take up alot of the college sports oxygen between Michigan, MSU, Purdue, Notre Dame, Indiana and only Butler winning like they have and playing in back to back national title games has garnered them any attention at all.

The only other D1 college hoops program in metro St Louis is St Louis U. They have no NBA to compete with. On the Illinois side of the river, SIU Carbondale is 100 miles away and the closest D1 hoops program and they've been falling hard over the last 5 years. On the Missouri side, besides St Louis U, SEMO is at least 100 miles away and not done much, U Missouri is obviously a big draw anywhere in the state but beside them, SIUE's only other competition in Missouri is Missouri State which has fallen off lately and Springfield is at least 300 miles from St Louis. UMKC is a smaller time program and 250 miles from metro St Louis.

Horizon has an opportunity to get traction in a brand new larger market with no NBA competition.

SIUE only becomes a full DI member this year and has no basketball pedigree. Their RPI is poor and they have limited resources. Unless SIUE moves into an arena with suites etc and bigger league amenities., the St Louis metro area will pay them just as much heed as they gave them in their first season in the OVC.

as a Horizon League fan, I'm hoping CofC and Davidson turn down the CAA...in my opinion, that could open up some interesting possibilities for the HL

(07-30-2012 12:48 AM)parkerj Wrote:  as a Horizon League fan, I'm hoping CofC and Davidson turn down the CAA...in my opinion, that could open up some interesting possibilities for the HL

Like?

(05-29-2012 08:35 PM)Lolly Popp Wrote:  I still don't like this situation where schools can immediately leave for a new conference without having to wait a year. All it does is create more instability as the affected league has to scramble for replacements. Now the Horizon is going to have to add a garbage school like IUPUI or Oakland immediately, in response, rather than waiting until 2013 and adding a quality institution. Meanwhile, as I have been saying all along, the A-10 will have four distinct regions in a 16-team alignment.

RUSTY BUCKET: St. Louis \ Butler \ Dayton \ Xavier
MID-ATLANTIC: UNC Charlotte \ Richmond \ VCU \ George Washington
KEYSTONE\WNY: St. Joseph's \ LaSalle \ Duquesne \ St. Bonaventure
NORTHEASTERN: Temple \ Fordham \ Rhode Island \ Massachusetts

Switch Temple and St. Bonaventure and that makes sense.

(06-03-2012 12:08 AM)onlinepole Wrote:  The other plus that SIUE has over IUPUI or IPFW or even Oakland is that Indiana and Michigan are really saturated with great hoops programs that take up alot of the college sports oxygen between Michigan, MSU, Purdue, Notre Dame, Indiana and only Butler winning like they have and playing in back to back national title games has garnered them any attention at all.

The only other D1 college hoops program in metro St Louis is St Louis U. They have no NBA to compete with. On the Illinois side of the river, SIU Carbondale is 100 miles away and the closest D1 hoops program and they've been falling hard over the last 5 years. On the Missouri side, besides St Louis U, SEMO is at least 100 miles away and not done much, U Missouri is obviously a big draw anywhere in the state but beside them, SIUE's only other competition in Missouri is Missouri State which has fallen off lately and Springfield is at least 300 miles from St Louis. UMKC is a smaller time program and 250 miles from metro St Louis.

Horizon has an opportunity to get traction in a brand new larger market with no NBA competition.

Springfield is not 300 miles away from St. Louis. Its around 200. And fallen off lately? We just won the MVC two seasons ago.

SIUE is a commuter school in St. Louis. They are just a speck on the St. Louis sports scene.

(07-30-2012 01:19 AM)Caltex2 Wrote:  Switch Temple and St. Bonaventure and that makes sense.

Temple has much more history and stronger rivalries with fellow public schools UMass and Rhode Island, plus a shorter drive and recruiting connections near Fordham, while St. Bonaventure has a much stronger historical connection with fellow Catholic schools Duquesne, LaSalle, and St. Joseph's.

There is no reason to keep all three Philadelphia schools together for one year when Temple is on the verge of leaving. They don't want to play LaSalle and St. Joseph's twice. The A-10, by the way, has Temple and Charlotte playing twice this year since those members will be gone next season.