This thread really has degenerated. Hasn't it, omni?

Quote:I'm sorry, but whatever little credibility you had with me is now totally gone. Creighton? CREIGHTON?!?!?! The best option for an eastern basketball league is to expand with a school from Nebraska???

With DePaul, Marquette and possibly Notre Dame in tow, that 'eastern' league is going to have somewhat of a midwest hook to it. If we only consider catholic schools, I think Creighton's recent basketball success makes the school a legitimate canidate, even if it is a bit far-flung. Even in the east, there simply aren't that many private catholic universities that would meet qualifications for the new conference.

If Nova, Gtown and ND leave with the football schools, we could be looking at between 4 and 7 new schools. Xavier, Saint Louis, and Dayton are miles ahead of the other competition, but who else works for the new 'Big East'? Butler, Valpariasio or Detroit Mercy? Fordham or Duquenese? Holy Cross or Manhattan? I doubt Nova would be okay with adding Saint Joe's or Drexel. Thanks, but I'll swallow the travel costs and take far-flung Saint Louis or Creighton. You're already shooting yourself in the foot with a trip to Chicago and Milwaukee each year anyway.

TheLurker Wrote:

Quote:I'm sorry, but whatever little credibility you had with me is now totally gone. Creighton? CREIGHTON?!?!?! The best option for an eastern basketball league is to expand with a school from Nebraska???

With DePaul, Marquette and possibly Notre Dame in tow, that 'eastern' league is going to have somewhat of a midwest hook to it. If we only consider catholic schools, I think Creighton's recent basketball success makes the school a legitimate canidate, even if it is a bit far-flung. Even in the east, there simply aren't that many private catholic universities that would meet qualifications for the new conference.

If Nova, Gtown and ND leave with the football schools, we could be looking at between 4 and 7 new schools. Xavier, Saint Louis, and Dayton are miles ahead of the other competition, but who else works for the new 'Big East'? Butler, Valpariasio or Detroit Mercy? Fordham or Duquenese? Holy Cross or Manhattan? I doubt Nova would be okay with adding Saint Joe's or Drexel. Thanks, but I'll swallow the travel costs and take far-flung Saint Louis or Creighton. You're already shooting yourself in the foot with a trip to Chicago and Milwaukee each year anyway.

THANK YOU

omnicarrier Wrote:

esayem Wrote:Creighton would be the best option (attendance, fanhood) if that is what you're looking for. Xavier replaces the Bearcats with a school in the same city and are one of the best programs, if not the best, outside of the so called "power six". Remember GU, PC, SJU, Nova, SHU (majority) would have to okay a 10th member.

I'm sorry, but whatever little credibility you had with me is now totally gone. Creighton? CREIGHTON?!?!?! The best option for an eastern basketball league is to expand with a school from Nebraska???



Cheers,
Neil

Lurker pretty much sums it up, because it isn't an "eastern" basketball league anymore. I am saying based on the facts he was spewing about Dayton, then Crieghton is the best option. A midwest Catholic school with high attendance even when they only make the NIT.

Xavier is the best option. The majority of the schools would want to stop at 9 after they bridge the gap between the eastern schools and Notre Dame

TheLurker Wrote:

Quote:I'm sorry, but whatever little credibility you had with me is now totally gone. Creighton? CREIGHTON?!?!?! The best option for an eastern basketball league is to expand with a school from Nebraska???

With DePaul, Marquette and possibly Notre Dame in tow, that 'eastern' league is going to have somewhat of a midwest hook to it. If we only consider catholic schools, I think Creighton's recent basketball success makes the school a legitimate canidate, even if it is a bit far-flung. Even in the east, there simply aren't that many private catholic universities that would meet qualifications for the new conference.

Sorry, but this is simply ridiculous. Yes, the conference footprint has been extended, but we are still basically talking about east of the Mississippi.

And there are plenty of viable candidates in the original scenario that was being talked about where the 8 bb schools stay together and expand by 2 - the main ones being Xavier and Dayton - which make way more geographical sense and are just as successful, if not more than successful, than Creighton.

In this scenario the idea would be to build a bridge geographically between eastern PA and eastern Illinois, northeastern Indiana, and eastern Wisconsin - not hop, skip, and jump over to Nebraska.

Quote:If Nova, Gtown and ND leave with the football schools, we could be looking at between 4 and 7 new schools. Xavier, Saint Louis, and Dayton are miles ahead of the other competition, but who else works for the new 'Big East'? Butler, Valpariasio or Detroit Mercy? Fordham or Duquenese? Holy Cross or Manhattan? I doubt Nova would be okay with adding Saint Joe's or Drexel. Thanks, but I'll swallow the travel costs and take far-flung Saint Louis or Creighton. You're already shooting yourself in the foot with a trip to Chicago and Milwaukee each year anyway.

Nova wouldn't need to approve St. Joe's in this scenario. They'd be in the other league with the football schools.

And if the smaller compact hybrid occurs, I guarantee you the new bb-only league will be some type of merger of the remaining BE bb schools and the better programs from the A10.

Because if Nova and GT went with the football schools, the remaining BE bb schools are going to want a presence in both Philly and DC, which will mean most likely St. Joe's and George Washington along with Xavier and Dayton.

Cheers,
Neil

esayem Wrote:

omnicarrier Wrote:

esayem Wrote:Creighton would be the best option (attendance, fanhood) if that is what you're looking for. Xavier replaces the Bearcats with a school in the same city and are one of the best programs, if not the best, outside of the so called "power six". Remember GU, PC, SJU, Nova, SHU (majority) would have to okay a 10th member.

I'm sorry, but whatever little credibility you had with me is now totally gone. Creighton? CREIGHTON?!?!?! The best option for an eastern basketball league is to expand with a school from Nebraska???



Cheers,
Neil

Lurker pretty much sums it up, because it isn't an "eastern" basketball league anymore. I am saying based on the facts he was spewing about Dayton, then Crieghton is the best option. A midwest Catholic school with high attendance even when they only make the NIT.

Xavier is the best option. The majority of the schools would want to stop at 9 after they bridge the gap between the eastern schools and Notre Dame

Again, it's an eastern league in regard to it being "east of the Mississippi", which Creighton isn't, and one of the main points brought up was that Xavier and Dayton have become major rivals with each other - both being Ohio schools.

See my response to Lurker as to why Nebraska is not a geographical bridge between eastern PA and eastern Illinois, northeastern Indiana, and eastern Wisconsin whereas Ohio is.

Cheers,
Neil

omnicarrier Wrote:

esayem Wrote:

omnicarrier Wrote:

esayem Wrote:Creighton would be the best option (attendance, fanhood) if that is what you're looking for. Xavier replaces the Bearcats with a school in the same city and are one of the best programs, if not the best, outside of the so called "power six". Remember GU, PC, SJU, Nova, SHU (majority) would have to okay a 10th member.

I'm sorry, but whatever little credibility you had with me is now totally gone. Creighton? CREIGHTON?!?!?! The best option for an eastern basketball league is to expand with a school from Nebraska???



Cheers,
Neil

Lurker pretty much sums it up, because it isn't an "eastern" basketball league anymore. I am saying based on the facts he was spewing about Dayton, then Crieghton is the best option. A midwest Catholic school with high attendance even when they only make the NIT.

Xavier is the best option. The majority of the schools would want to stop at 9 after they bridge the gap between the eastern schools and Notre Dame

Again, it's an eastern league in regard to it being "east of the Mississippi", which Creighton isn't, and one of the main points brought up was that Xavier and Dayton have become major rivals with each other - both being Ohio schools.

See my response to Lurker as to why Nebraska is not a geographical bridge between eastern PA and eastern Illinois, northeastern Indiana, and eastern Wisconsin whereas Ohio is.

Cheers,
Neil

Is Xavier a better option than Dayton? Yes.

Is Xavier a better option than Creighton? Yes.

Is Xavier the best option? Yes.

Would a basketball conference expand to 10 for the minority? No.

Do you need two schools right near eachother when you have a perfect conference with one? NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

Did I ever say Creighton was a geographical bridge? NO

I said Creighton is better than Dayton. Which, if you took the time to compare at the stats, is true.

Any questions?

esayem Wrote:Is Xavier a better option than Dayton? Yes.

Is Xavier a better option than Creighton? Yes.

Is Xavier the best option? Yes.

Would a basketball conference expand to 10 for the minority? No.

Do you need two schools right near eachother when you have a perfect conference with one? NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

Did I ever say Creighton was a geographical bridge? NO

I said Creighton is better than Dayton. Which, if you took the time to compare at the stats, is true.

Any questions?

And if you bothered to look at all of the other mid-major bb conferences out there, you would find:

A10 - 14 programs
Colonial - 12 programs
MVC - 10 programs
Horizon - 10 programs
West Coast - 8 programs

Nine team conferences are not the norm, even for bb.

And while recent history, the past ten years, would make Creighton the better program, overall, Dayton is historically better. If you weight recent history more than that's fine with me.

But it's not as though Dayton is 'a dog'.

And you did more than simply say that Creighton was a better program than Dayton (which, when weighting the last decade more, I have no problem with) - you said that if a new Catholic bb league were going to expand to 10 Creighton would be a better option than Dayton. Now perhaps you meant this only in terms of attendance and program status, but options to me (and mostly everyone else, including the poster you were debating with) more than just that.

That's the part that is, and remains, questionable - and to which I was responding.

Being an option for a new Catholic league involves more than just program status, but also:

markets - Dayton > Omaha
geographical fit for a Catholic League - Dayton > Creighton
historical rivalries with the other members of a Catholic League - Dayton > Creighton.

Any more questions?

Cheers,
Neil

omnicarrier Wrote:

esayem Wrote:Is Xavier a better option than Dayton? Yes.

Is Xavier a better option than Creighton? Yes.

Is Xavier the best option? Yes.

Would a basketball conference expand to 10 for the minority? No.

Do you need two schools right near eachother when you have a perfect conference with one? NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

Did I ever say Creighton was a geographical bridge? NO

I said Creighton is better than Dayton. Which, if you took the time to compare at the stats, is true.

Any questions?

And if you bothered to look at all of the other mid-major bb conferences out there, you would find:

A10 - 14 programs
Colonial - 12 programs
MVC - 10 programs
Horizon - 10 programs
West Coast - 8 programs

Nine team conferences are not the norm, even for bb.

And while recent history, the past ten years, would make Creighton the better program, overall, Dayton is historically better. If you weight recent history more than that's fine with me.

But it's not as though Dayton is 'a dog'.

And you did more than simply say that Creighton was a better program than Dayton (which, when weighting the last decade more, I have no problem with) - you said that if a new Catholic bb league were going to expand to 10 Creighton would be a better option than Dayton. Now perhaps you meant this only in terms of attendance and program status, but options to me (and mostly everyone else, including the poster you were debating with) more than just that.

That's the part that is, and remains, questionable - and to which I was responding.

Being an option for a new Catholic league involves more than just program status, but also:

markets - Dayton > Omaha
geographical fit for a Catholic League - Dayton > Creighton
historical rivalries with the other members of a Catholic League - Dayton > Creighton.

Any more questions?

Cheers,
Neil

Many of those conference you listed have conformed due to football issues. 9 or 8 was the standard, and I firmly believe if a new power conference emerged from a split they would stop at 9. It is a better number because you can play a perfect 16 game conference schedule which includes everyone twice.

I would never say Dayton is a dog, I believe they are a solid program now, and in the past.

I understand that a Catholic league with majority east coast schools would not pick Creighton over Dayton. I was saying it makes no sense to pick Dayton when you allready have a school in Cincinnati. He said Dayton was the best Catholic school in attendance outside of ND, I said Creighton was. I do believe they average more than Gonzaga, but I don't have the figures.

If Xavier is the ninth, and for some reason they want a 10th, I think a few schools have a better shot than Dayton, and this is based on the fact there will still be a majority of east coast schools. I don't see them committing to an even 5 east/5 west when they have the power. Therefore St. Louis and Creighton would be out of the picture too. I believe a school like Duquesne would be looked at due to their location and market, or even a school like Richmond, despite not being Catholic.

1. Split 8-8. The Football remnant adds Memphis and Central Florida, while the Catholic remnant adds Xavier and Dayton.
2. Add Memphis for football only, with Memphis moving other sports to the MVC.
3. Maintain status quo.
4. Split 10-6 or 9-7.
5. Expand beyond 16.

I don't see a point of splitting just to bring on a few bball schools and have a hybrid again. Either the football schools stay or they go and do an all sports conference.

omnicarrier Wrote:Again, it's an eastern league in regard to it being "east of the Mississippi", which Creighton isn't, and one of the main points brought up was that Xavier and Dayton have become major rivals with each other - both being Ohio schools.

See my response to Lurker as to why Nebraska is not a geographical bridge between eastern PA and eastern Illinois, northeastern Indiana, and eastern Wisconsin whereas Ohio is.

Cheers,
Neil

Creighton might be west of the Mississippi, but [if I'm not mistaken] so is Saint Louis. I agree with you that I'd take Dayton [or Xavier] over a school like Creighton. But over USaint Louis? The school has shown it has money to land a big-time coach, has a 10k+ stadium, and is arguably #2 in Saint Louis [behind UMizz]. I can see wanting to pass up Creighton, but I'd be suprised [even shocked] if our new league was missing the Billikens. The success has been there in the past, and with Majerus at the reins, I'd bet the farm that more good things are to come.

When all is said and done, the Mississippi is still just a river. Unless our new league decides to admit non-catholics [GW will be hard to pass up, especially if the league loses GT] , there aren't that many schools that would be up to the standards of a non-bcs league to choose from. How many canidates can claim to be the #2 in thier native media market [including pro sports], feild a Top 50 Basketball and Baseball program, and meet the requirements of our new Big East? [catholic; 5,000k enrollment; 15k+ arena]? You'd have to think that these credentials make them a serious canidate.

Let's be honest, if expansion is needed beyond Xavier and Dayton, would you really take a school such as Butler, Detroit Mercy or Duquenese just because they are a bridge school? The conference will already be streched; why not add a few more schools so Marquette/DePaul can feel a little less isolated? If you've already commited yourself to a large footprint, why not just add the best school in that footprint? Instead of trying to bridge two distinct areas; I think it would be best to have five schools in each region.

Some people are only seeing what they want to see. A post-split Catholic basketball Big East would not stop at nine teams. It almost has to be either 10 teams or 12 teams. As far as the East/West thing goes, it will not be 5/5 due to travel and rivalries, so it has to be either 6/4 or 6/6. Presidents and Athletic Directors look at these things much differently than fans. Dayton and Xavier are committed to making their partnership work and, if you do not believe me, call up their Athletic Directors and ask them. Oh. I guess everyone can't do that. Fine. Send them an e-mail and then hope they reply.

The first four choices based on the factors I listed above are Holy Cross in the East and St. Louis, Dayton, and Xavier in the West. It is possible that this is the order that they would go in as well. There will not be a nine-team league. Now if Notre Dame or a school from the East were to go with the football group, then the package of Dayton and Xavier could move ahead of Holy Cross and St. Louis, but the Crusaders would still be necessary if the Fighting Irish were the defectors to get a 6/4 configuration. The inverse idea holds true if Villanova, or perhaps Georgetown, would defect instead.

As far as some of the other schools that have been mentioned, come on now, please get serious. Pass over Dayton and St. Louis to reach for Creighton? Not going to happen. The only way St. Joseph's or LaSalle makes it is if Villanova is not around. Very unlikely. Duquesne and St. Bonaventure can't even compete in the A-10 and their markets do not bring enough to the table to put them ahead of Holy Cross, St. Louis, Dayton, and Xavier. Butler, by the way, is not a Catholic school no matter how often people mistakenly think otherwise and Detroit Mercy does not have the funding to keep up.

For the Big East BB Conference. How bout Duquesne. They bring back the Pittsburgh market. And I think Duquesne would thrive in a Catholic league.

animus Wrote:For the Big East BB Conference. How bout Duquesne. They bring back the Pittsburgh market. And I think Duquesne would thrive in a Catholic league.

They are basically in one now and suck! I don't see it working out with Duquesne, they don't seem to have the will, money, nor fan base to do much...

Krocker Krapp Wrote:Some people are only seeing what they want to see.

Just like you.

Krocker Krapp Wrote:A post-split Catholic basketball Big East would not stop at nine teams.
It almost has to be either 10 teams or 12 teams.

Why? Stop spewing random sh&t with no reason behind it.

Krocker Krapp Wrote:Presidents and Athletic Directors look at these things much differently than fans. Dayton and Xavier are committed to making their partnership work and, if you do not believe me, call up their Athletic Directors and ask them. Oh. I guess everyone can't do that. Fine. Send them an e-mail and then hope they reply.

Haha, really cute :) Either one would leave the other in a heartbeat. THIS IS NOT A PARTNER GAME. Every school for themselves, as much as they buddy buddy with current in-conference friends.

Do we need the Last Minuteman to tell you Holy Cross is not a realistic option? As far as you guys laughing at Duquesne, I believe they had a young team and were rather good last year. I am not pimping them by any means. I am not pimping a freakin 10th team either. That is STUPID.

BullsFanInTX Wrote:Forgive me if I am VERY passionate about the direction of USF. And that direction does not (or at least should not) include UCF. If I had my way, the USF/UM series will become a BIG time series and everyone can forget about the USF/UCF series. I think the USF/UM series will be a bigger draw than USF/UCF. Will it happen, who knows. The USF/UCF series may very well become a big rivalry in the future, I admit that. I just don't like it when others try to tell USF that is going to be their rivalry...Sorry...

I admit that UCF does have a LOT going for them and are making big progress and could very well be included in the BE if the BE ever decides to split/expand.

With all due respect, and I did say with all due respect......this is bull. Leavitt didn't want to drop UCF to pick up Miami. If that was the case, then why did USF sign a 1-1 with mighty Western Kentucky?

UCF is starting a home and away series with Miami too. I'll bet the UCF/USF games will outdraw the UCF/Miami and USF/Miami games.

And, there is a rivalry and you know it.

Here we go again.....

And somebody saying UC and UofL to the MAC in 3, 2, 1.........

knight87 Wrote:

BullsFanInTX Wrote:Forgive me if I am VERY passionate about the direction of USF. And that direction does not (or at least should not) include UCF. If I had my way, the USF/UM series will become a BIG time series and everyone can forget about the USF/UCF series. I think the USF/UM series will be a bigger draw than USF/UCF. Will it happen, who knows. The USF/UCF series may very well become a big rivalry in the future, I admit that. I just don't like it when others try to tell USF that is going to be their rivalry...Sorry...

I admit that UCF does have a LOT going for them and are making big progress and could very well be included in the BE if the BE ever decides to split/expand.

With all due respect, and I did say with all due respect......this is bull. Leavitt didn't want to drop UCF to pick up Miami. If that was the case, then why did USF sign a 1-1 with mighty Western Kentucky?

UCF is starting a home and away series with Miami too. I'll bet the UCF/USF games will outdraw the UCF/Miami and USF/Miami games.

And, there is a rivalry and you know it.

Depends on what you mean by rivalry. On the field, no, and it won't be until if/when the Knights can be more competitive with USF and/or beat them. Since it is ending after this year, we may never find that out, unless UCF can somehow pull one out this year.

Off the field, I guess it is a semi rivalry between fans of both schools. More so on the UCF side though. A majority of USF fans just want the series to end. Some do want it to go on as it is a pretty good draw, but most USF fans do not, probably 75 percent or so, maybe more. Most USF fans would rather have a rivalry against a BCS team, be it Miami, or someone in Big East play. If UCF ever gets into a BCS conf, then it will probably develop into a true rivalry.

knight87 Wrote:

BullsFanInTX Wrote:Forgive me if I am VERY passionate about the direction of USF. And that direction does not (or at least should not) include UCF. If I had my way, the USF/UM series will become a BIG time series and everyone can forget about the USF/UCF series. I think the USF/UM series will be a bigger draw than USF/UCF. Will it happen, who knows. The USF/UCF series may very well become a big rivalry in the future, I admit that. I just don't like it when others try to tell USF that is going to be their rivalry...Sorry...

I admit that UCF does have a LOT going for them and are making big progress and could very well be included in the BE if the BE ever decides to split/expand.

With all due respect, and I did say with all due respect......this is bull. Leavitt didn't want to drop UCF to pick up Miami. If that was the case, then why did USF sign a 1-1 with mighty Western Kentucky?

UCF is starting a home and away series with Miami too. I'll bet the UCF/USF games will outdraw the UCF/Miami and USF/Miami games.

And, there is a rivalry and you know it.

Depends on what you mean by rivalry. On the field, no, and it won't be until if/when the Knights can be more competitive with USF and/or beat them. Since it is ending after this year, we may never find that out, unless UCF can somehow pull one out this year.

Off the field, I guess it is a semi rivalry between fans of both schools. More so on the UCF side though. A majority of USF fans just want the series to end. Some do want it to go on as it is a pretty good draw, but most USF fans do not, probably 75 percent or so, maybe more. Most USF fans would rather have a rivalry against a BCS team, be it Miami, or someone in Big East play. If UCF ever gets into a BCS conf, then it will probably develop into a true rivalry.