...okay, not THAT split, but rather the beginning of the separation of the football schools from the bb schools in terms of basketball?

We all know about the recruiting prowess of UConn, Louisville, and Syracuse. And Pittsburgh always seems to find those hidden gems that mesh well with Howland's/Dixon's system. But now, three other football schools have definitely picked it up a notch.

With Huggins in place at West Virginia, the Eers are going to get some nationally recognized recruiting classes. The signing of Ebanks was just the beginning. And don't forget they also have Kevin Jones coming in the 2008 class as well. Again, with Huggins on board, look for West Virginia to join with UConn, UL, and SU in many recruiting wars.

Cincinnati, already with potential superstar Deonta Vaughn and hidden freshman gem Rashad Bishop, is adding Yancy Gates and Cashmere Wright.

Rutgers after getting two nice guard recruits in the 2007 class, picked up two nice shooting guard recruits for 2008. But their 2009 class is where the bigs come on board. So look out in 2009, providing they don't lose any of these recruits before then.

South Florida had rookie sensation Dominque Jones last year. While soph guard Chris Howard joined jr guard Verdejo to form a nice backcourt combination. The Bulls will miss Gransberry's presence in the middle though and the recruiting class for this year will have to produce at least one frontcourt hidden gem for the Bulls to show progress.

As for the basketball schools, well Georgetown is kicking arse and not even bothering to take names. But what about the rest?

Villanova had a great wing/point guard class for 2007 to go along with that great class from 2006, but doesn't seem to have anyone for 2008, recently losing out on Tyreke Evans to Memphis. I think they will bounce back in 2009 as long as Jay Wright remains coach. But considering the plight of the next two bb schools, I'm not so sure.

Notre Dame, after finishing fourth in the league in 2006, had a really marginal class in 2007 and apparently have no one in 2008 yet either even though they had an even better run in 2007. How does that happen???

Marquette, which had that great recruiting class of 2005 and then managed to add Lazar Haywood in 2006 has now had two so-so classes in a row. With Crean gone, I worry about them long term. This team has created so much national buzz the last three years, how do they not recruit better than this? With the graduation of Barro and Fitzgerald, is Burke going to be enough up front for the rugged BE?

DePaul's freshman class of Koshwal and Tucker was quite good in 2007. It was actually the type of class that would have kept the momentum going at either Marquette or Notre Dame (not that they were going to either school if they didn't choose DePaul - but you get the basic drift). Will this dynamic duo be enough to get the recruiting momentum going for the Blue Demons for 2009 and beyond?

St. John's also had two nice recruits in 2007 with Justin Burrell and D.J. Kennedy. The Johnnies are going to need someone to step it up at the point guard position for them to make noise in 2008.

Lastly Seton Hall has Harvey, Lazell, and Larry Davis as a nice young trio but I wonder how 330 lb freshman center Oliver is going to work out? I just see far too many BE teams streaking down court with man advantages unless he loses some weight in a hurry.

Over the past two years, the two sides have been evenly matched in terms of performance on the court.

I have a gut feeling this will start to change in 2008-09, with the football schools starting to separate themselves in terms of court performance over the next few years.

I believe Georgetown and Villanova (with Wright) can keep up but I'm not convinced the others will.

Thoughts?

Cheers,
Neil

Notre Dame will be solid, so will Villanova. Georgetown will start slow (they have only nine on scholarship) but will be better come February.

Marquette may take a step back, DePaul and Providence a step forward.
Seton Hall has issues. St. John's is really behind it.

But that's not much different than the other side of the ledger: Pitt, Louisville and UConn are solid, Syracuse is on the rebound, WVU figures to take a step back w/o Alexander, UC a step up. USF is still gaining traction and Rutgers is at the back of the line.

Neil
USF will miss Gransberry but they have added some pretty good talent. Heath will improve USF, it might take time to see it from a Big East point of view but we are improving.
This are USF's incoming recruits:
Alex Rivas-Sanchez 6'10 230 JUCO avg 8.3 pts 12 rbs at Pratt CC in Kansas
Teeng Akol 6'10 200 FR. was being recruited by many Big East schools. #41 center on ESPN
Eladio Espinosa 6'7 210 FR #38 power forward by ESPN
Gene Teague 6'8 295 FR #54 power forward by ESPN
Gaby Belardo 6'3 180 FR
Dwan McMillan 6'0 170 FR was rated #57 point guard by ESPN was being recruited by BE schools
also
Mike Mercer who redshirted last year will be eligible 6'4 190 guard avg 12.2 pts at Georgia was SEC freshman team
It will be aninteresting year at USF, Heath is starting t build the kind of team he likes.

for what its worth...

The South Florida Bulls received a big addition in 6-foot-10 prep school power forward Teeng Akol from Bradenton IMG Academy (Fla.). He has all kinds of offensive tools and could be a poor man's Kevin Durant in college. He's definitely a player that Stan Heath can build the program around if he qualifies this summer as expected.

link

also, promising pg recruit dwan mcmillan is playing on the top team in the IS8 tournament alongside samardo samuels, devin ebanks, and some cuse recruits.

DFW HOYA Wrote:Notre Dame will be solid, so will Villanova. Georgetown will start slow (they have only nine on scholarship) but will be better come February.

Oh, I agree that they will be fine for next year, but two consecutive less than average recruiting classes for the Irish at the peak of their long climb back up to respectability is a concern, to me anyway.

Quote:Marquette may take a step back, DePaul and Providence a step forward. Seton Hall has issues. St. John's is really behind it.

Marquette has been surprising since their entry into the league but I just don't see how they don't take a step backwards next year. Too many teams are improving whereas they are not.

Forgot to mention Providence in my post. I think they do indeed move up a step with Keno Davis in charge and the senior laden talent that squad has. It will be interesting to see what kind of recruiting classes Davis gets in the future.

I like DePaul's two youngsters, but haven't seen anything at point that impresses with Clinkscales and Burns now gone. And it wasn't as though DePaul wasn't trying to find a point guard last year - since that was a huge weakness for them, at least to my eyes.

Quote:But that's not much different than the other side of the ledger: Pitt, Louisville and UConn are solid, Syracuse is on the rebound, WVU figures to take a step back w/o Alexander, UC a step up. USF is still gaining traction and Rutgers is at the back of the line.

I think Ebanks (assuming he meshes well as a one-and-doner) will easily replace Alexander (assuming he does indeed go pro). If he stays, him and Ebanks together are going to be a tandem to behold. As a matter of fact, if Alexander were to stay, the Eers would become a trendy pick for first place in the Big East. Mazzulla and Ruoff will be a dynamite backcourt, although a back-up point guard will need to be developed.

Cincinnati, like you say is going to take a step up as well.

While Rutgers and South Florida will be improved, it is hard to see them making much headway next year with all of the talent in front of them. I see the same thing for DePaul, St. John's, and Seton Hall.

I think 11 teams are going to be competing for 9 NCAA spots next year.

Cheers,
Neil

Neil:

Ben Hansbrough (Tyler's brother) has transferred to ND from Mississippi State.

http://notredame.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=803941


ND also is very much in the running for the services of Purdue transfer Scott Martin:

http://www.post-trib.com/sports/943469,martin.article


Here is a link to the Irish Illustrated (Rivals) basketball recruiting page:

http://notredame.rivals.com/default.asp?type=4

They just got a commitment from 3 star forward (6'5", 200 lbs) Joey Brooks from Houston, Texas.



But I agree with you, after two good years in a row they should be doing much better in recruiting.

TerryD Wrote:Neil:

Ben Hansbrough (Tyler's brother) has transferred to ND from Mississippi State.

http://notredame.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=803941


ND also is very much in the running for the services of Purdue transfer Scott Martin:

http://www.post-trib.com/sports/943469,martin.article


Here is a link to the Irish Illustrated (Rivals) basketball recruiting page:

http://notredame.rivals.com/default.asp?type=4

They just got a commitment from 3 star forward (6'5", 200 lbs) Joey Brooks from Houston, Texas.



But I agree with you, after two good years in a row they should be doing much better in recruiting.

Hail TerryD!

Is it that same old bugaboo regarding academics that is hindering the Irish recruiting, facilities, a combination of the two, or is it something else?

I understood the Joyce Center was going to get an upgrade. How are things progressing on this front?

Cheers,
Neil

Here is a commitment that I had missed:


http://w3.nbebasketball.com/index.php/gb...#more-2134


Scouting Reports

Jack Cooley, 6′8 PF

Schools of Interest: Committed to Notre Dame

Strength: Overall size and brut strength lets him gain virtually any position on the floor he desires.


Area of Improvement: Overall offensive finishing skills

Skinny: When Mike Brey started out on the recruiting trail for reigning Big East Player of the Year Luke Harangody, he saw something that most big time programs did not see. He saw a hard working big man with the brut strength to do the dirty work everyone else is not willing to do. In 2009, Harangody will be winding down his days in South Bend and he will need someone to fill his gargantuan shoes. Brey wasted no time in choosing Jack Cooley to be his replacement. When Cooley hits the hardwood alongside Harangody for the 2009 season, fans will be fortunate that there are numbers on the jerseys. The two are nearly identical all the way down to the flat top hairstyle. There games are very similar as well.

Cooley’s success as a player is all based on a combination of size and effort. He can often be seen chasing down a fast break he has no chance of defending for the minute chance his opponent misses and he can rebound or defend on a second opportunity. It seems like he gets his hand on EVERY rebound. He boxes out on every shot attempt, offensive or defensive. He also exhibits outstanding footwork in staying in front of his man defensively.

He needs to work on his offensive game as a whole. Most of his scoring is generated from his offensive rebounds. He can rarely generate his own shot, even from the post. As a result, the number of offensive plays called for him are few and far between. He can often be found in the wrong place offensively made noticeable by his teammates frequently waving him to the right spot on the floor. This may be a product of playing at a smaller high school where only very basic principles of basketball are taught. He also needs to work on his touch around the rim. He may never develop a dominant offensive game or an outside shot, but to become anything more than a role player at a major college level he must be able to finish non dunks around the hoop.

It appears that Mike Brey has started to recruit a certain type of player at Notre Dame. While Cooley is not a blue chip recruit, he can take comfort in the fact that he is further along at this point in his career than Harangody was. Cooley’s mother Phyllis said that “Notre Dame was a win/win situation for them. Most would agree. He couldn’t be in a better place.”


Another Luke Harangody? I sure hope so.

Maybe Mike Brey is doing better than I thought in recruiting.


To answer your question, I think that facilities (Joyce Center) hurt ND recruiting more than anything else.

The plans and money are in place to improve the basketball facilities, they are just way behind other items on the building schedule like a new hockey rink, softball stadium, etc....


Here are some quotes from a poster on The Pit (ND Hoops board) on NDNation.com. He talks about how Assistant AD John Heisler spoke at the Ann Arbor, MI ND Club about the planning/construction of new athletic facilities in his speech:

"He spent the entire first part of his presentation throwing out stats on how smart next year's incoming freshmen are, the huge size of the endowment, all the new buildings going up, general ND stuff like that. The entire second part was spent showing artists' renditions of all the planned athletic facilities -- softball, track and field, you name it -- and he said over and over again how sports have changed, and how crucially important updated practice spaces and locker rooms were to the success of college athletics nowadays. Ty, your prediction is right on: Lots of pics and talk about the Gug and how it helps recruiting. Then he went on and on about Jeff Jackson and the tremendous success of the hockey team, and talked about how he has earned the right to better facilities, and showed some pics of the proposed hockey arena and a slick new locker room, etc.

So as a longtime ND hoops fan, at the end I asked, given all of this, why was basketball absent from these beautiful artists' renditions? I also suggested that regarding coaches who have "earned" the right to some top-notch facilities, what about Mike Brey? He immediately launched into a rather circuitous speech about well, we have a lot of priorities you know, and heck, we have a pretty good place down in the Pit with a new floor. He sounded scared and strangely aggressive. Then he actually suggested that hey, maybe practice facilities weren't really that important in the long run, maybe there are other things that kids find more important, etc. I sat there in disbelief at the blatant and incomprehensible about-face."



Here is another such post from the same board:


A little athletics facilities update
by goldboiler (04/28/2008 10:06:12) [ cannot delete ] [ Edit ] [ Return to Board ] [ Ignore Poster ] [ Highlight Poster ] [ Reply ]

It looks like the soccer and lacrosse "stadiums" are now funded and construction is beginning this summer.

The football field area renovation also begun as the old track is now being removed.

The softball stadium is finished and being used.

It looks like from the master plan that "all" that is left is the JACC renovations for bb and hockey.

Hopefully ND's full attention is now on getting these things funded and underway (ie the north dome final plan).



As you can see, ND basketball is given a pretty low priority by the athletic department. They are taking their time to even go forward with renovations to the 40 year old basketball arena even though the plans and money are sitting there.

It's all still speculation at this point, Terry. The Irish will have to wait until these kids hit the floor before they find out the truth. But still, it looks better for ND's future than originally indicated.

That said, however, it is clear that the football schools are making big inroads in recruiting, and are starting to separate themselves from most of the rest of The BEast. I don't hink Georgetown, Villanova, Marquette, or DePaul will have trouble maintaining their programs. They've got too much history now, and all 4 are heavily supported for basketball in their areas. The rest are another matter, and if the split comes, it will effect all basketball schools recruiting efforts eventually - even the 4 previously mentioned.

The BCS affiliation, and the attention garnered by The BEast's football schools during the last few football seasons, is labeling the 8 football schools as The BEast. When people think of The BEast, they immediately think of the football schools. The basketball schools in The Beast are slowly but surely losing their identity.

Once the split happens (when, not if...), the basketball could descend into mediocrity, unless they prepare and take steps to prevent it.

bitcruncher Wrote:The BCS affiliation, and the attention garnered by The BEast's football schools during the last few football seasons, is labeling the 8 football schools as The BEast. When people think of The BEast, they immediately think of the football schools. The basketball schools in The Beast are slowly but surely losing their identity.

Once the split happens (when, not if...), the basketball could descend into mediocrity, unless they prepare and take steps to prevent it.

That's very true outside of Georgetown or Villanova no one thinks of the basketball schools when you mention Big East. But the scary part is to most casual fans is that the football conference still sucks and the Big Ten is still right up there with the SEC in football quality.

That perception won't last long. The BEast is starting to win a number of recruiting wars with the established powers. Kids are starting to realize that they can get the same amount of exposure in The BEast, and the path to a national championship looks easier (at least that's the national perception - we can USE that). All teams in The BEast are improving, and we were rated the 2nd strongest conference by Sagarin for part of the season - until USF fell on their face.

We may have the 2nd strongest conference this year. We'll see. As long as The BEast keeps winning (and we will ) all our problems will just fade away.

omnicarrier Wrote:Marquette has been surprising since their entry into the league but I just don't see how they don't take a step backwards next year. Too many teams are improving whereas they are not.

Why? If McNeal returns (which he probably will), MU has pretty much the same team as last year, only a year older and stronger. Barro's replacement, Mbakwe, is a great talent who was slowed last year by his injury. The only question mark is Williams coaching, but really, it won't take much to replace Crean, (contrary to the national opinion).

If MU takes a step back, it will be in 09. A lot hinges on how Buzz recruits. Given the kids MU is being mentioned with in the 09 class, I think we will be alright.

With the recent announcement of the NFL owners rejection of the current labor agreement, we could have another factor that effects the decision making process as to whether or not to split. If their is a lockout, or walkout, college football will be the only game in town. This could trigger several moves. I'm not going to say what moves, because I have no idea. But this is something that could be a massive motivator for many.

If the NFL season is delayed, or cancelled, college football will be the only game in town like I said before, and it would be a perfect time to make the move. The amount TV exposure, and fan interest, without pro football to distract from the coverage would make any new members more easily accepted by the public. Familiarity through TV, during a time of NFL football withdrawal, would help immensely. That could be the very ticket.

Cincinnati also will add Mike Williams, who is a transfer Junior from Texas. UC will also have a couple of 6-10 center next year so Gates and Williams and Belton will be able to play exclusively at PF. UC will be a sleeper and could do some major damage in the Big East and nationally next year.

Louisville just signed an 7'11 player from Olgawengtengwahgenga, a town bordering The Congo and Ivory Coast. However he went to school in Transylvania with missionaries. His name is Carl Goonga' Goongagaloonga.

bitcruncher Wrote:I don't think Georgetown, Villanova, Marquette, or DePaul will have trouble maintaining their programs. They've got too much history now, and all 4 are heavily supported for basketball in their areas.

Billy Packer once made this statement about a Big East program:

"I don't think the infrastructure ever developed there...I see no reason why [it] can ever be as successful as it was. There's no evidence of that. I think they need a superstar. Why would a superstar go there?"

He's not talking about St. John's or Providence, but Georgetown, circa spring 2004. And more than a few people were out on the Internet in 2004 openly wondering if Georgetown had the stomach to even stay in the Big East going forward--there were even conspiracy theorists out there claiming the hire of Craig Esherick in 1999 was quietly intended to slowly ease the Georgetown program out of this level of basketball.

Bottom line, things can change. If St. John's opened up the bank and picked up a Calipari or a Donovan, things would change overnight up on Union Turnpike. And if UConn fumbles Calhoun's successor, things change, too. Let's not be so quick to set the Big East leadership in cement.

DFW HOYA Wrote:

bitcruncher Wrote:I don't think Georgetown, Villanova, Marquette, or DePaul will have trouble maintaining their programs. They've got too much history now, and all 4 are heavily supported for basketball in their areas.

Billy Packer once made this statement about a Big East program:

"I don't think the infrastructure ever developed there...I see no reason why [it] can ever be as successful as it was. There's no evidence of that. I think they need a superstar. Why would a superstar go there?"

He's not talking about St. John's or Providence, but Georgetown, circa spring 2004. And more than a few people were out on the Internet in 2004 openly wondering if Georgetown had the stomach to even stay in the Big East going forward--there were even conspiracy theorists out there claiming the hire of Craig Esherick in 1999 was quietly intended to slowly ease the Georgetown program out of this level of basketball.

Bottom line, things can change. If St. John's opened up the bank and picked up a Calipari or a Donovan, things would change overnight up on Union Turnpike. And if UConn fumbles Calhoun's successor, things change, too. Let's not be so quick to set the Big East leadership in cement.

Good post DFW!

I do think it will always be harder for an established bb school to bounce back than an established football school that is also a proven basketball winner - in a conference such as the Big East.

Of course it helps when a school just catches 'lightnin' in a bottle'.

I think GT got that with JTIII, Nova with Jay Wright, Marquette with Tom Crean and perhaps Providence is about to get it with Davis.

Of course, it is important to keep those 'young' coaches now. I think Thompson and Wright will remain, IF the schools open up the purses. I think Davis will be gone once he proves himself at Providence.

And as you say, Calhoun's successor or Boeheim's successor may prove not to be the right choice - but somehow I think those institutions will be more likely to open up the bank than a St. John's - and much more quickly if things start to go south in a hurry.

Cheers,
Neil

omnicarrier Wrote:

DFW HOYA Wrote:

bitcruncher Wrote:I don't think Georgetown, Villanova, Marquette, or DePaul will have trouble maintaining their programs. They've got too much history now, and all 4 are heavily supported for basketball in their areas.

Billy Packer once made this statement about a Big East program:

"I don't think the infrastructure ever developed there...I see no reason why [it] can ever be as successful as it was. There's no evidence of that. I think they need a superstar. Why would a superstar go there?"

He's not talking about St. John's or Providence, but Georgetown, circa spring 2004. And more than a few people were out on the Inin 2004 openly wondering if Georgetown had the stomach to even stay in the Big East going forward--there were even conspiracy theorists out there claiming the hire of Craig Esherick in 1999 was quietly intended to slowly ease the Georgetown program out of this level of basketball.

Bottom line, things can change. If St. John's opened up the bank and picked up a Calipari or a Donovan, things would change overnight up on Union Turnpike. And if UConn fumbles Calhoun's successor, things change, too. Let's not be so quick to set the Big East leadership in cement.

Good post DFW!

I do think it will always be harder for an established bb school to bounce back than an established football school that is also a proven basketball winner - in a conference such as the Big East.

Of course it helps when a school just catches 'lightnin' in a bottle'.

I think GT got that with JTIII, Nova with Jay Wright, Marquette with Tom Crean and perhaps Providence is about to get it with Davis.

Of course, it is important to keep those 'young' coaches now. I think Thompson and Wright will remain, IF the schools open up the purses. I think Davis will be gone once he proves himself at Providence.

And as you say, Calhoun's successor or Boeheim's successor may prove not to be the right choice - but somehow I think those institutions will be more likely to open up the bank than a St. John's - and much more quickly if things start to go south in a hurry.

Cheers,
Neil

I don't know. It was reported last week that Crean made $1.85 million in 2007. That is pretty good coin. So, the issue is not necessarily money. Some of the bball schools have it, just like some of the football schools have it. You have to look at history, facilities, fan support, administration commitment, etc.

Lets say UConn becomes a football power. UConn makes a mistake with JC's replacement and the program tumbles. Will the University spend big bucks to shore up the bball program or will they keep pumping money into their football cash cow? Maybe. But, money might not be enough.
One interesting thing that came out of MU's coaching search was the fact that many candidates expressed strong concerns about coaching in the BE. Evidently, MU contacted 3 of the hottest names and they were not sure that wanted to coach in a league that was so competitive, even at a reported $2 million/year salary. This kind of echos PC's problems hiring a coaching. A big name coach may not want the stress associated with a down BE program, when he jump to a different job in an easier league for the same coin.

MU88 Wrote:I don't know. It was reported last week that Crean made $1.85 million in 2007. That is pretty good coin. So, the issue is not necessarily money. Some of the bball schools have it, just like some of the football schools have it. You have to look at history, facilities, fan support, administration commitment, etc.

Lets say UConn becomes a football power. UConn makes a mistake with JC's replacement and the program tumbles. Will the University spend big bucks to shore up the bball program or will they keep pumping money into their football cash cow? Maybe. But, money might not be enough.

One interesting thing that came out of MU's coaching search was the fact that many candidates expressed strong concerns about coaching in the BE. Evidently, MU contacted 3 of the hottest names and they were not sure that wanted to coach in a league that was so competitive, even at a reported $2 million/year salary. This kind of echos PC's problems hiring a coaching. A big name coach may not want the stress associated with a down BE program, when he jump to a different job in an easier league for the same coin.

Good post MU88!

I think if you are a Rutgers or a South Florida, you probably pour the money into football. But that's a guess on my part. I'd say UConn, SU, and Louisville break the bank if necessary.

Interesting perspective regarding some top coaching prospects that didn't want to coach in the Big East. I would speculate that in addition to the toughness and the competitiveness of the league, they might have also been concerned about the stability of the league as well.

I still am surprised at the fact that there was very little interest in the Marquette job given their recent success, their historical success, their facilities, good recruiting territory, and the $$$ they were willing to spend.

Here's hoping Buzz turns out to be a sensational hire for the Golden Eagles.

Cheers,
Neil

omnicarrier Wrote:

MU88 Wrote:I don't know. It was reported last week that Crean made $1.85 million in 2007. That is pretty good coin. So, the issue is not necessarily money. Some of the bball schools have it, just like some of the football schools have it. You have to look at history, facilities, fan support, administration commitment, etc.

Lets say UConn becomes a football power. UConn makes a mistake with JC's replacement and the program tumbles. Will the University spend big bucks to shore up the bball program or will they keep pumping money into their football cash cow? Maybe. But, money might not be enough.

One interesting thing that came out of MU's coaching search was the fact that many candidates expressed strong concerns about coaching in the BE. Evidently, MU contacted 3 of the hottest names and they were not sure that wanted to coach in a league that was so competitive, even at a reported $2 million/year salary. This kind of echos PC's problems hiring a coaching. A big name coach may not want the stress associated with a down BE program, when he jump to a different job in an easier league for the same coin.

Good post MU88!

I think if you are a Rutgers or a South Florida, you probably pour the money into football. But that's a guess on my part. I'd say UConn, SU, and Louisville break the bank if necessary.

Interesting perspective regarding some top coaching prospects that didn't want to coach in the Big East. I would speculate that in addition to the toughness and the competitiveness of the league, they might have also been concerned about the stability of the league as well.

I still am surprised at the fact that there was very little interest in the Marquette job given their recent success, their historical success, their facilities, good recruiting territory, and the $$$ they were willing to spend.

Here's hoping Buzz turns out to be a sensational hire for the Golden Eagles.

Cheers,
Neil

I think Buzz will do fine. He is known as a great recruiter and we are starting to see MU mentioned with some very good talent.

BTW, there wasn't a lack of interest in the job, but concern by a couple of the candidates that MU was interested in. The BE is a meat grinder for coaches. There is a lot of pressure on coaches who don't win quickly enough. Plus, you can become very bad very quickly in the BE. And, you make a good point about league stability. What happens if the BE blows up?