The list of the 25 Top Programs for Both Football and Basketball got me to thinking, what does it take to build the best possible all-sports conference of the future?

Assuming that 12 is the optimum size for an all-sports conference, what is the perfect combination?

As an example -

Would you want 6 programs that are Top 30 in both (but may not be Top 10 in either) plus 3 more that are Top 25 in football only and another three that are Top 25 in basketball only?

Just curious as to what some of your thoughts are in this regard.

Cheers,
Neil

I think in a twelve team league i would say
Four-Six top 25 in either sport annually. I dont think it would have to be the same school for both sports.
If we had that nine team all sports league then i would say 3-4 top 25 annually.

Cubanbull Wrote:I think in a twelve team league i would say Four-Six top 25 in either sport annually. I don't think it would have to be the same school for both sports.

I think your annual team goal is the basic bottom line. So let's average it out and say (if we have a 12-team all-sports conference) we want an all-sports conference that puts 5 teams in the Top 25 in college football and 5 teams in the Top 30 in college basketball every year.

My thinking was more along the lines of what combination of programs (long-term indicator) is likely to result in that annual bottom line in terms of individual teams.

So, using the original example from my post - is having 6 programs that are good in both football and basketball + 3 other programs that are good in football but not good in basketball + 3 other programs that are good in basketball but not good in football likely to result in an average of 5 Top 25 teams annually in football and an average of 5 Top 30 teams in basketball?

Or is some other type of combination better to reach the end result?

Cheers,
Neil

Go alittle more in depth with the perameters you are looking for in your all sports conference.

1. Money driven
2. Image of successful conference on the playing field/court
3. Fan support
4. Mixture of all the above

If you go for money driven, you load up on schools successful in football and basketball first, then you go for successful in football onlyl, followed by basketball only then followed by fan support/national appeal.

For our current league, and not being a homer here, I would go with:

1. UL-Top 30 generally in both sports and others, plus national appeal, large basketball arena, #3 in basketball revenue to UNC and UK.

2. WVU-Top 20 in football, top 30 in basketball (with Huggins bring national appeal)

3. Syracuse-Top 30 in basketball with large arena, potential for top 30 in football, NY metro following brings national appeal

4. Pitt-Top 30 basketball, potential for top 30 football, national appeal from basketball success, and potential from being a school in football driven state

5. UConn-Top 20 basketball, potential top 30-35 in football, needs to build rest of sports.

6. Cincy-Potential top 30-35 in both sports, desperately needs to round out the rest of their sports, and gain a national appeal

7. Rutgers-Not sure why they can't become a powerhouse in basketball with the recruiting hotbed up there. Potential for top 20 football, need to upgrade other sports, like Cuse NYC following helps national appeal....when Rutgers is successful.

8. USF-I am afraid basketball will be non existent there, will have weigh heavily on football and olympic sports to gain national appeal.

9. Potential candidates in order, IMO
1. ND-if they would get their head out of their butts and come off of themselves, they would jump to 2 or 3 instantly
2. Nova-Good basketball town, tradition-national appeal, football needs big strides
3. U Mass-Large metro area following, basketball history, need to upgrade football, and get back on track in basketball consistantly
4. Temple-See Nova

Notre Dame is 9th but we can not get them for football, so what does the Big East football schools have?

12 - Cuse
14 - Ville
23 - Pitt
35 - West Virginia
U Conn
South Florida
Rutgers
Cincinnati
Memphis (basketball)

That gives us a solid 9 teams but who are the other three that gets us to 12?

Notre Dame
U Mass
Temple
Navy
East Carolina
Central Florida

Who else should be potential candidates beside Maryland, PSU and BC, we are not going to get those three!

dgrace4cards Wrote:Go alittle more in depth with the perameters you are looking for in your all sports conference.

Ah...someone who understood where I might be heading with this.

Well, the first part of Building an all-sports conference wanted to focus mainly on the what type of programs would you want in the league to produce the results CubanBull talked about in his post.

Other components would have consisted of...

Quote:1. Money driven

Yes, how much $$$ would it generate - although this probably would have been the last component I would have talked about.

Quote:2. Image of successful conference on the playing field/court

Yes. Perception, particularly historical perception as well as perception of potential would have been another component.

Quote:3. Fan support

Fan support. And not just attendance at home games, but how many of the football programs would need to have the perception that their fans travel well to bowl games.

I would want to avoid talking about individual programs because I wanted to get an idea of the mixture first before filling in slots.

So, my thinking goes as follows:

You'd want a minimum of 6 programs that are good in both sports and then from the other 6 programs, you want at least three to be good in basketball and the other three to be good in at least football.

Of the 12 programs, you would want at least 5 that average more than 60K in attendance and who have a strong traveling fan base to bowl games.

Of the 12 programs, you would want at least 5 that average 12K or more in attendance and whose fans travel well to MSG.

Of the 12 programs you would want at least 5 that have a national historical perspective of being good in football and at least 5 that have a national historical perspective of being good in basketball.

Now, if that is the base, how do the current super-conferences measure up? And how can the Big East get to that level?

Cheers,
Neil

Splitting and adding Memphis gets us to a solid 9 teams. There is just no else left East of the Mississippi unless we can raid the ACC for Maryland, Boston College and Virginia Tech or PSU from the Big 10.

Wilkie01 Wrote:Notre Dame is 9th but we can not get them for football, so what does the Big East football schools have?

Cuse - Needs to rebound in football, excellent bb program and always at or near the top in terms of bb attendance, but will unlikely ever top high 40K in fb attendance due to location and current facilities.

Ville - potential to be perceived as a near-elite football program, potential to eventually average 60K plus in football. Good traveling fan base. Excellent bb program. Also will likely always be in Top 5 in terms of bb attendance.

Pitt - Like the Cuse, needs to rebound in football. Unlike Syracuse, this team should average 60K in attendance but does not. Somehow needs to turn that into a reality. Fans will probably never be a good traveling fan base, even if it rises to draw 60K consistently. Over the past decade, developing into a powerhouse bb program. Will only draw 10K plus fans due to current facilities.

West Virginia - #35 based upon the last 35 years, probably Top 10 in the past decade. Good traveling fan base. Potential to consistently average 60K plus in football. Beilein began the road back to bb prominence which Huggins will probably finish. Still, only see this program averaging 10K plus in terms of bb attendance.

UConn - national reputation in men's basketball, women's basketball, and at least BC potential in terms of football. Men's bb attendance is usually 13K plus. Current coach and facilities likely to overcome poor recruiting ground to help give them perception of potential in football. They've succeeded in both men's and women's bb - why not fb? Also, if success comes in football, could reach 60K in fb attendance.

Cincinnati - national historical perception in men's basketball, which needs to rebound. If it does so, men's bb attendance will return to being 12K plus. Though the perception of potential in football is still not nationally viewed, with current coach, facilities, and recruiting area, the Bearcats could actually surprise and develop into one of those dual threat programs as well. Still, even if fb potential reached unlikely to go much above 40K in terms of attendance.

South Florida - perception of potential in football rising quicker than hoped for. Large school in a major market, could develop into a consistent 60K plus attendance in football. Even with Heath, do not expect them to be more than marginal in terms of bb. Needs to raise its attendance in bb to a more respectable 6-8 K showing.

Rutgers - oldest football program, but just now taking advantage of its potential. Large school near a major market, could also develop into a consistent 50K plus in attendance for football. Not sure they will make it to the 60K plateau. Unlikely to ever be a consistent men's bb program, but appears to be a consistent women's bb program.

So at the moment, the league has 4 schools that are considered to be good historically (at least within the past 35 years) in both football and basketball.

The league also has two more that have the potential to join that group or at the very least be two of the three known for being historically good in basketball.

And finally the league has one of the oldest programs and one of the newest programs that could be two of the three programs that will be known as being good in football.

Quote:Who else should be potential candidates beside Maryland, PSU and BC, we are not going to get those three!

No, we won't. At least not at all likely in 2010.

Cheers,
Neil

Wilkie01 Wrote:Splitting and adding Memphis gets us to a solid 9 teams. There is just no else left East of the Mississippi unless we can raid the ACC for Maryland, Boston College and Virginia Tech or PSU from the Big 10.

If there is a rush for a split to simply get to 9, then we obviously won't be in a good enough position to "raid" the ACC or convince PSU to leave the Big 10 at that time. And if we do split and add #9, then we better be sure #9 isn't going to hurt our chances of potentially adding an ND, or a PSU, or a BC down the road.

One of the purposes for starting this thread is to show how far each of the current 8 need to progress to get to a point where an ND, PSU, and BC might be willing to consider BEast membership.

Cheers,
Neil

omnicarrier Wrote:So, my thinking goes as follows:

You'd want a minimum of 6 programs that are good in both sports and then from the other 6 programs, you want at least three to be good in basketball and the other three to be good in at least football.

Of the 12 programs, you would want at least 5 that average more than 60K in attendance and who have a strong traveling fan base to bowl games.

Of the 12 programs, you would want at least 5 that average 12K or more in attendance and whose fans travel well to MSG.

Of the 12 programs you would want at least 5 that have a national historical perspective of being good in football and at least 5 that have a national historical perspective of being good in basketball.

Now, if that is the base, how do the current super-conferences measure up? And how can the Big East get to that level?

Cheers,
Neil

This is what I came up with. It was difficult to select some teams based on attendance simply because their stadiums are at 100% capacity but here is goes anyway. I'm sure I forgot some teams so please let me know if I did. I took the BB history from you post a couple months ago.

Big 12:
Basketball (History):
Texas
Kansas
OU
OSU

Basketball (Attendance)
Texas
Kansas
OK St
Iowa St
NU, OU, TTech (~ 10,250)

Football (History):
OU
Texas
NU
Texas A&M
Colorado (?)

Football (Attendance):
Texas
Texas A&M
Ok
Nebraska

Big 12 summary:
BB only - Kansas, Ok St
FB only - Texas A&M, Colorado, Neb
Both - Texas, OU,

Big 10:
Basketball (History):
MSU
UM
ILL
Ohio State
Indiana
Iowa(?)
Purdue

Basketball (Attendance):
OSU
UW
Ill
Indiana
Iowa
MSU
Purdue/Minny/UM (~10,000-11,000)

Football (History):
OSU
PSU
UM
MSU

Football (Attendance):
OSU
UM
PSU
UW
MSU
Iowa
Purdue(?)

Summary:
BB only: Indiana, Ill, Purdue, Iowa
Football Only: UW, PSU
Both: OSU, MSU, UM

SEC:
Basketball (History)
Alabama
LSU
Florida
Kentucky
Arkansas

Basketball (Attendance):
Kentucky
UTenn
Ark
Vandy/LSU/Ala/Florida (~ 10,000 - 11,000)

Football (History):
Tenn
Alabama
LSU
UGa
Auburn
Florida
Arkansas

Football (Attendance):
UT
UGa
LSU
Florida
Alabama
Auburn
South Carolina
Ark
Kentucky(?)

SEC Summary:
BB only: Kentucky, Vandy
FB only: Auburn, UGa
Both: UF, LSU, Tenn, Alabama, Arkansas

Pac 10:
Basketball (History):
UCLA
Arizona

Basketball (Attendance):
Arizona

Football (History):
USC
UW
UCLA

Football (Attendance):
USC
Cal
UCLA
Oregon/UW/ASU(?)

Pac 10 Summary:
BB only: Arizona
FB only: Cal, UW, USC
Both: UCLA

ACC:
Basketball (History):
UVa
Duke
UNC
NC St
Maryland

Basketball (Attendance):
UNC
Maryland
NC St
UVa
Wake/VT (~ 10,000)

Football (History):
Miami
FSU
Clemson

Football (Attendance):
VT
FSU
Clemson
Uva (?)

ACC Summary:
BB only: UNC, Duke, Maryland, NC St, UVa
FB only: Miami, FSU, Clemson

** Hard to do the ACC simply because many are solid in attendance (NCSt, UNC, Maryland, UVa - low 50s to low 60s) but don't necessarily have a great FB 'history'

Ok Neil, feel free to shread it!

Cubanbull Wrote:I think in a twelve team league i would say
Four-Six top 25 in either sport annually. I dont think it would have to be the same school for both sports.
If we had that nine team all sports league then i would say 3-4 top 25 annually.

I think thats about right.. I think U want 1 or 2 in a 12 team that regularly is a top 5 to 15 in one sport.. so u have somewhat of a flag bearer.. USC..pac 10. , Lsu, UF, GA in Sec, Mich, Osu in big 10.. ect..

Wilkie01 Wrote:Notre Dame is 9th but we can not get them for football, so what does the Big East football schools have?

12 - Cuse
14 - Ville
23 - Pitt
35 - West Virginia
U Conn
South Florida
Rutgers
Cincinnati
Memphis (basketball)

That gives us a solid 9 teams but who are the other three that gets us to 12?

Notre Dame
U Mass
Temple
Navy
East Carolina
Central Florida

Who else should be potential candidates beside Maryland, PSU and BC, we are not going to get those three!

There isn't 12 there today.. U have to go on potential.. to find them.. much like u did after this shake up.. USF, and Cincy were not old BE quality when they came in.. but both had good situations and potential. of that group above.. ND won't come so thats a moot point. Temple if they keep pushing.. could make sense.. UCF has everything needed except the BCS tag.. and ECU could easily = a NC state type program.. Navy would have real problems at bcs level.. I don't know much about Umass other than they dont have a 1a fb program yet.

Wilkie at this point I Don't think you can rule out Hous, UAB & in the 90's I tought Richmond might be worth looking at. As for the BE attracting other BCS schools, B10 network locked PennSt in forever, BCS bowls would have to turn there back on ND, I don't see that happening. If Bos Coll or MD starting thing about joining BE, I think the ACC would address the situation by expanding to keep them. You also have to realize if BosColl came back [which would be the BE best shot at getting BCS school], you might lose USF in process.

omnicarrier Wrote:The list of the 25 Top Programs for Both Football and Basketball got me to thinking, what does it take to build the best possible all-sports conference of the future?

Assuming that 12 is the optimum size for an all-sports conference, what is the perfect combination?

As an example -

Would you want 6 programs that are Top 30 in both (but may not be Top 10 in either) plus 3 more that are Top 25 in football only and another three that are Top 25 in basketball only?

Just curious as to what some of your thoughts are in this regard.

Cheers,
Neil

-- Frankly, if consideration is ever given to go to 12 then the SEC should be our model. The SEC tried to get as many good-great football programs in house as possible. For many yrs SEC basketball was Kentucky, Florida and one or two other teams that would rise in a given yr (Arkansas, Mississippi St, LSU etc). The point is, football is the big money maker and that should be our focus. A conference that generates a lot of football money can put some of that cash into a developing basketball programs.

Assuming the current eight football programs will be in the proposed all sports league bball will be good enough with those traditional powers like Syracuse, UConn, UL, UC etc. We should focus on getting as much football quality and football program that have traveling fan bases in house. Getting better bowl is essential at this point no matter what happens with the split.

I would really be concerned if we added more then 1 school in expansion where sucess in football was secondary to basketball

Jackson

Wilkie01 Wrote:Splitting and adding Memphis gets us to a solid 9 teams. There is just no else left East of the Mississippi unless we can raid the ACC for Maryland, Boston College and Virginia Tech or PSU from the Big 10.

Speaking for myself, this is the preferred option.

I would support an all sports conference with just the current 8 members in 2010 and slowly grow to 12 teams through tradition rather than potential. However, with that said, I think Memphis, ECU, and UCF are already ready. Having BCS inclusion will allow them all to go to the next level. We just need Temple to commit all the way to Big Time Sports or Notre Dame to step up and we would be set.

Jackson1011 Wrote:-- Frankly, if consideration is ever given to go to 12 then the SEC should be our model. The SEC tried to get as many good-great football programs in house as possible.

I disagree. When the SEC expanded it passed over mulpitple schools that had better football programs in exchange for new markets. South Carolina had a good fan base, but very little football success. Florida State was better, but the SEC already had the state of Florda.

3601 Wrote:

Jackson1011 Wrote:-- Frankly, if consideration is ever given to go to 12 then the SEC should be our model. The SEC tried to get as many good-great football programs in house as possible.

I disagree. When the SEC expanded it passed over mulpitple schools that had better football programs in exchange for new markets. South Carolina had a good fan base, but very little football success. Florida State was better, but the SEC already had the state of Florda.

FSU tried to get into the SEC during the 60's, 70's and early 80's...but always had the door shut in their face.

When the ACC finally came calling...and the final straw was the average federal grant that these ACC schools were bringing in University wide...that sealed FSU's fate. (NOTE: Federal/Research Grants DOUBLED at FSU during the first 4-5 years after joining the ACC).

SEC tried a last minute invite to FSU...but it was too late.

Teams can only jumped to conferences that they get invited too and are wanted.

I like 12 team conf. I'd agree Memphis, UCF & East Car are ready [tough hybrid with EC/ND works I think] As for 12th school, right now Temple & Hous should be looked at, they both have the same drawbacks, same potental, & the same assets.

3601 Wrote:

Jackson1011 Wrote:-- Frankly, if consideration is ever given to go to 12 then the SEC should be our model. The SEC tried to get as many good-great football programs in house as possible.

I disagree. When the SEC expanded it passed over mulpitple schools that had better football programs in exchange for new markets. South Carolina had a good fan base, but very little football success. Florida State was better, but the SEC already had the state of Florda.

-- That's a good point. WVU wanted that 12th spot too and we had a lot better football program the South Carolina in those days

However, still think football should be the focus of expansion...if it takes place

Jackson