PhillyPhlash Wrote:Yes, it is true, Villanova filibustered a possible all sports membership for the Owls in the early 90s and subsequently are responsible for the near demise of our football program. Their argument (Villanova) was that Temple was too big to allow them to survive and Nova convinced the other Nazi (Catholic) schools to vote against an all sports membership for Temple. Personally, I think Temple fits in perfectly with the current FB schools but we need to continue to improve our basketball and football programs to even start talking about readmittance.

Temple just needs to win and bring in some fans. BE needs to see some commitment to football. Temple fits perfectly within the BE footprint but BE is not interested in another leech that brings nothing to the conference.

St Louis (basketball only) and UCF

my question is has temple ever had a good following in football, was there ever a period where they did well and consistently sold out and somewhat captured philly's attention? i just remember that last year in the big east where they beat cuse and their must have been 200 people in the stands in a big nfl stadium.

OUBOBCATJOHN Wrote:St Louis (basketball only) and UCF

Not going to happen....18 members in hoops is ridiculous! The basketball members will not vote for another member. It would be split or nothing will happen. My guess is status quo until 2013.

USFMike Wrote:my question is has temple ever had a good following in football, was there ever a period where they did well and consistently sold out and somewhat captured philly's attention? i just remember that last year in the big east where they beat cuse and their must have been 200 people in the stands in a big nfl stadium.

Temple played in the first ever Sugar Bowl. They were undefeated at the time but lost.

Temple played in and won in the highest attended Garden State Bowl with 55,000 people in the seats.

Temple once had their own football stadium that held around 40,000 and tore it down rather than invest in some repairs to improve it.

The administration prior to the current one tried to kill Temple football.

Temple was focused on their BB program from the 80's until the present.

If Temple had not been blocked by Villanova for all sports admittance they would still be in the BE because their other sports programs would have carried them through the FB bad times. Their recruiting would not have hit rock bottom in the years after their announced BE expulsion though it was low at the end of the prior coach's tenure.

Temple has some good history but bad decisions by the prior administrations and Nova's ability to block their all sports entry have definitely hurt them as far as growth in the BE. They have the capability to put at least 35-40 k in the stands but it will take a while under the new administration for them to come back. They are making strides in that direction this year and have the potential to have a 5 and 7 season this year in the MAC and attendance is up. They will average over 30k this year at the Linc. Big games with Navy and Penn State helped to pump that figure up. They will have also renewed the Temple - Villanova rivalry on the FB field which draws at least 35k annually. That game is great for the city of Philadelphia too.

There are only 2 ways for Temple return to the BE though. Trained Goose pitches them in there for FB only to save his beloved hybrid or the BE splits and Temple is admitted to the Split FB All Sports BE to replace Villanova in the Philly market. Their BB program in a BB city would help that. Also Philly is one of the largest TV markets in the country (#3 or #5) sticks in my mind as of this writing. Time is not in their favor for decisions for the 2010 split though unless the split FB entity covets the Philly market.

If Temple does not return they will be succesful in the MAC with Golden and the current administration. As it stands right now Temple and the MAC are getting a game in the Philly area every week. With the Philly market the MAC is chipping into the BE FB market with Saturday games at 1PM like Penn State does with the B-10, ND, Army and Navy as an independents, and BC in the ACC while BE prime time games are relegated to Thursday and Friday night games. But who cares the BE will always cater to the Catholic BB interests first as long as Trained Goose heads the show.

In the end Temple would be a viable asset to the BE if they were readmitted for all sports under their current circumstances. However the Neanderthal thinking of Trained Goose as the BE commish, the Villanova blocking tactics, and a tip of balance to (9 to 8) favoring the FB entity will not allow this to happen for a 17 team league.

If the 17 team league was negotiated right now with another all sports team, I think UCF has the inside track with all their improvements on the FB field, BB court, and facilities. Trained Goose likes the Florida FB markets too. It gives the BE another Florida market and potential for another bowl in Florida that the BE would control. The Philly BB market would still be retained with Nova. For this to happen I think both entities (FB and BB) would have to have a get out jail free card as a "Group" if they thought their interests were not properly tended to in the 17 team hybrid. Any individual school that leaves would still incur the five million dollar exit fee.

Quote:Temple once had their own football stadium that held around 40,000 and tore it down rather than invest in some repairs to improve it.

-- Temple had its own staduim?? I had no idea that was the case. When was it tourn down? That is one thing TU football could really use. Even a crowd of 30k is going to look small in the link. A Nippert staduim-like field would have really worked for Temple. Talk about shortsided move

Jackson

Jackson1011 Wrote:

Quote:Temple once had their own football stadium that held around 40,000 and tore it down rather than invest in some repairs to improve it.

-- Temple had its own staduim?? I had no idea that was the case. When was it tourn down? That is one thing TU football could really use. Even a crowd of 30k is going to look small in the link. A Nippert staduim-like field would have really worked for Temple. Talk about shortsided move

Jackson

Temple Stadium was a stadium in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. It hosted the Temple University Owls football team until they moved to Veterans Stadium in 1978. The stadium held 34,200 people at its peak and was opened in 1928. It was also known as Owl Stadium and Beury Stadium.

thanks, i knew temple had some history, if they put together a string of bowl seasons in the mac who knows maybe the alumni will come around. i wonder how much john cheney had to do with the university putting all of their resources into basketball and ignoring football

PhillyPhlash Wrote:Their argument (Villanova) was that Temple was too big to allow them to survive and Nova convinced the other Nazi (Catholic) schools to vote against an all sports membership for Temple.

Well, there's a perjorative statement. It was St. John's that broke the impasse for expansion.

In fact, it was the other BE football schools (particularly those who are no longer in the conference) that pushed Temple out the door.

The original expansion from 10 to 12 had the most votes for Rutgers and WV. BC and others liked the idea of VPI for TV purposes and thought Temple was a bottom feeder.

USFMike Wrote:thanks, i knew temple had some history, if they put together a string of bowl seasons in the mac who knows maybe the alumni will come around. i wonder how much john cheney had to do with the university putting all of their resources into basketball and ignoring football

Cheney was not a problem. The prior Temple President who would not put funds into the FB program when it was on the carpet with the BE and who tried to eliminate Temple Football was the main problem. Committment comes from the top and flows downward. In Temple's case the only thing that flowed from the top at the previous President's office for Temple football was crap and pages from an old Sears Catalog.

dgrace4cards Wrote:We just need to sit down with ND tell them they are in, in football or they're out in everything, and have either Temple, ECU, or UCF to hop in.

ND probably at this point needs a conference tie in to boost recruiting some, the landscape of football has changed dramatically, and may have left ND behind for the time being.

PERFECT time for this talk with ND.....right NOW

DFW HOYA Wrote:

PhillyPhlash Wrote:Their argument (Villanova) was that Temple was too big to allow them to survive and Nova convinced the other Nazi (Catholic) schools to vote against an all sports membership for Temple.

Well, there's a perjorative statement. It was St. John's that broke the impasse for expansion.

In fact, it was the other BE football schools (particularly those who are no longer in the conference) that pushed Temple out the door.

The original expansion from 10 to 12 had the most votes for Rutgers and WV. BC and others liked the idea of VPI for TV purposes and thought Temple was a bottom feeder.

I think we're talking about two different things here. It was Villanova who spearheaded the blockage of Temple as an all sports member in the early 90s, this has been documented in the Philly sports scene since it happened. Basically, Villanova kept us from getting more than one foot through the door with the Big East and BC, Miami, VT, and 'Cuse pushed us out completely.

PhillyPhlash Wrote:

DFW HOYA Wrote:

PhillyPhlash Wrote:Their argument (Villanova) was that Temple was too big to allow them to survive and Nova convinced the other Nazi (Catholic) schools to vote against an all sports membership for Temple.

Well, there's a perjorative statement. It was St. John's that broke the impasse for expansion.

In fact, it was the other BE football schools (particularly those who are no longer in the conference) that pushed Temple out the door.

The original expansion from 10 to 12 had the most votes for Rutgers and WV. BC and others liked the idea of VPI for TV purposes and thought Temple was a bottom feeder.

I think we're talking about two different things here. It was Villanova who spearheaded the blockage of Temple as an all sports member in the early 90s, this has been documented in the Philly sports scene since it happened. Basically, Villanova kept us from getting more than one foot through the door with the Big East and BC, Miami, VT, and 'Cuse pushed us out completely.

With BC, Miami, and VT out of the picture and the current scheduling problems - lets vote again!!!!!

Miami was more adamant than any school to get Temple booted out of the Big East. Miami felt that Temple was dragging down their SOS and national championship aspirations.

When the vote finally came, VaTech was the only school that voted to keep Temple. Pitt abstained and UConn hadn't joined for football yet, so they didn't get a vote. Everyone else (football schools) voted to boot Temple.

I'm thinking funnel happens someday since a split seems unlikely. Two all sports leagues, big east and big central, ranging from 10-12 teams which funnel there football teams to one 12 team football only league.

Tallgrass Wrote:That is true. Give Memphis, UCF, and ECU BCS status and their football program and fan attendance would grow, without question. Also, without question, give a NonBCS conference BCS status, and that entire NonBCS conference would improve its performance just like Cincy or USF. Of course, that is not going to happen.

The attendance at Memphis is actually down, just averaging over 30k. They aren't in a thriving metro area and historically haven't been that good in football.

The attendance at ECU is very good right now, but that is largely because they have the ability to schedule regional BCS schools like UNC and NCState at home. The attendance at ECU slides back into the 30's without those home games or when losing.

UCF is #1 in attendance this year at 44k a game. Prior to this season their best total was 30k a game so they in fact have taken a step up with Brighthouse Stadium. They had 44,000 on a schedule that consisted of (Texas, Memphis, Lafayette, Tulsa, and Marshall) not exactly that exciting. 43k in the stands for Lafayette so the program has drawing power.

UCF would be #3 behind WVU and USF in Big East attendance this season. This is with an unranked team on a CUSA schedule.

UCF is far larger then ECU and Memphis in both enrollment and budget. They won the CUSA East division in 2005 and are on the verge of doing it again in 2007. Its clear evidence this program is on the rise.

If UCF could pull a Boise and start making the top 25 which would make them an upper division Big East team then expansion for UCF would be an obvious move.

USFMike Wrote:

dgrace4cards Wrote:We just need to sit down with ND tell them they are in, in football or they're out in everything, and have either Temple, ECU, or UCF to hop in.

ND probably at this point needs a conference tie in to boost recruiting some, the landscape of football has changed dramatically, and may have left ND behind for the time being.

lol, i'm no notre dame apologist but that's too funny. sure let's make enemies with one of the most powerful figures in college football, so we can add ecu, temple, or ucf. brilliant! at least i won't have to hear people b!tching about scheduling ever again, but i'm sure something else will take it's place.

Posts like that one are so freaking retarded. All they show is a complete lack of knowledge about how the Big East works and how these programs relate to one another. Nobody is kicking out Notre Dame to add a weaker overall athletic program. Louisville, USF, and Cincinnati knew the deal with Notre Dame when they joined. It has been this way for more than a decade. Get over it already. Every member could have their cake and eat it too if the Big East would add Central Florida to the football side and Saint Louis to the basketball side as I have been advocating for the longest time.

KNIGHTTIME Wrote:

OUBOBCATJOHN Wrote:St Louis (basketball only) and UCF

Not going to happen....18 members in hoops is ridiculous! The basketball members will not vote for another member. It would be split or nothing will happen. My guess is status quo until 2013.

Why is 18 teams any more ridiculous than 16 teams? The difference is negligible. People see the number 18, get freaked out, and close their minds. That is the only thing which is ridiculous.

Going to 18 members would balance our geographic regions, promote better rivalries, and fix our scheduling problems in both football and basketball. Too bad shortsighted ones can't see that.

panite Wrote:

USFMike Wrote:thanks, i knew temple had some history, if they put together a string of bowl seasons in the mac who knows maybe the alumni will come around. i wonder how much john cheney had to do with the university putting all of their resources into basketball and ignoring football

Cheney was not a problem. The prior Temple President who would not put funds into the FB program when it was on the carpet with the BE and who tried to eliminate Temple Football was the main problem. Committment comes from the top and flows downward. In Temple's case the only thing that flowed from the top at the previous President's office for Temple football was crap and pages from an old Sears Catalog.

That is entirely correct. Administrations at Temple could not see the big picture for the longest time and that was the root of their problems. One issue simply led to another and the Owls got caught up in a vicious cycle. The last president, David Adaenemy, was the most anti-sports of all and almost seemed to loathe the fact that Temple had a football team at all. Positive changes are already starting to happen under the new president along with AD Bill Bradshaw and Al Golden. Temple deserves watching over the next few years to see if their new direction makes the program better.

KnightLight Wrote:

CyberBull Wrote:UCF -- nice on-campus facilities, but nothing that is better than most big east schoosl. Fanbase is unproven as compared to ECU, plus their administration has burned a lot of bridges.

CB...very good points...as USF had NEITHER of the above...and Big East still offered an invite.

Now UCF has very good on-campus facilities plus GOOD attendance (and very strong season tix sales), as the Knights would seem to be much of a less gamble for a future invite vs the status of USF back in Nov 2003.

I disagree MT say a rapid growing program in USf and took a chance based on the short history USF had. Kind of like buying a tech stock that is growing. This was based on he fact that in about 6yrs time USF had jumped up to Div 1A and went 9-2 against the 4 CUSA members we played and beat a ranked Bowling Green our only losses came at Oklahoma and Arkansas. Up to that point USF had only 1 losing season in our history and that was our first season ever at 5-6.

MT put his money on potential; UCF had been playing for 22 years and had not shown much so they were like a low growth stock that does not have a lot of potential to go up.

They wanted to take teams from CUSA a much stronger conference back then and not the MAC.


MT made the right choice even though USF was not able to close out the season this year the victory against AU and the hype were both very good for the BE. As was the hype and play of UConn and UC this year. Two other adds to the BE that many people snickered at.

Krocker Krapp Wrote:Every member could have their cake and eat it too if the Big East would add Central Florida to the football side and Saint Louis to the basketball side as I have been advocating for the longest time.

This isn't directed at you Krocker, but is a question in general. If your plan was implemented, does the league tournament expand to include all 18 teams? The 15th-18th seeds can start play on Monday, and would need to win 6 games to win the tournament!

Just a little levity on the subject, although I am 100% against 18 teams.

CollegeCard Wrote:

Krocker Krapp Wrote:Every member could have their cake and eat it too if the Big East would add Central Florida to the football side and Saint Louis to the basketball side as I have been advocating for the longest time.

This isn't directed at you Krocker, but is a question in general. If your plan was implemented, does the league tournament expand to include all 18 teams? The 15th-18th seeds can start play on Monday, and would need to win 6 games to win the tournament!

Just a little levity on the subject, although I am 100% against 18 teams.

No. The 17th place and 18th place teams would stay home. I would certainly hope that the same two teams do not finish in those two bottom spots every year so the job and recruiting pressures currently caused by the bottom four in our current configuration missing the Big East Tournament should not apply. Everything has a cut off. I think there would be some advantages in going to 18 members but I do not see any reason for more than 16 teams to make the Big East Tournament. Of course some other posters could have different, and equally valid, viewpoints.