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How horrid would the ACC be had they gotten first choice Syracuse? Discuss.
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HiddenDragon Offline
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Post: #81
RE: How horrid would the ACC be had they gotten first choice Syracuse? Discuss.
Brick City Pirate Wrote:Sure would like to know if L-Yes has anything else to add on the subject.

Usual for him to be this quiet. Must still be in surgery removing a rather large object from a very small opening.
(This post was last modified: 09-25-2007 03:45 PM by HiddenDragon.)
09-25-2007 03:44 PM
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chess Offline
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Post: #82
RE: How horrid would the ACC be had they gotten first choice Syracuse? Discuss.
bluesox Wrote:I think the SEC would have very much been interested in a booming V.Tech program and pair them with W.V.U., thus they would add 2 new markets, school's that fit the SEC profile and f'ing kill off another BCS conf + really become the most dominant league in the country. .

I can honestly tell you that Virginia Tech is exactly where they wish to be.

They are in a conference with North Carolina and Virginia. They have always sought out this arrangement and are experiencing the joys of being part of the ACC.

It does not matter what the SEC does, VPI is happy to be part of the ACC.

The SEC would have an easier time courting Oklahoma and Texas A&M than to waste resources trying to get VPI.
09-25-2007 04:18 PM
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Krocker Krapp Offline
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Post: #83
RE: How horrid would the ACC be had they gotten first choice Syracuse? Discuss.
The SEC has 12 teams. That is the perfect number for them. There is no reason for them, or any other BCS conference, to expand for 14 teams. I really wish people would drop this tired old topic. As a matter of fact, it isn't just tired, it's freaking dead.

Virginia Tech is in the conference they have always wanted to be in. That is the ACC. It has been their dream forever. Their governor finally got them in and they couldn't be happier. They even win basketball games now. The Hocakes love the ACC.

West Virginia is in the conference they belong in. That is the Big East. Their history and tradition are here with us. All the Backyard Brawls with Pitt. All the years of partnership with Rutgers. All the classic wars with Syracuse. The Mountaineers are home.

The Big Ten might - SMALL MIGHT - expand but it should not be with a Big East school. They should go after Nebraska. The Cornhuskers are one of the greatest programs ever and would bring incredible excitement to a West Division of the Big Ten.

Imagine the future Rivalry Week battles between Nebraska and Wisconsin every year that would, most likely, decide who wins the Big Ten West. Iowa would be in the mix sometimes - of course - while Minnesota, Illinois, and Northwestern bottom fed.

Ohio State and Michigan would obviously dominate the Big Ten East with Penn State sometimes jumping into the mix. Michigan State, Purdue, and Indiana would round out the rest of the cast. That is the best possible set up for their conference.
09-25-2007 05:20 PM
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Tigeer Offline
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Post: #84
RE: How horrid would the ACC be had they gotten first choice Syracuse? Discuss.
WVU has for years had a wish for ACC membership. I'm not so sure that would be a good thing now - they have a good niche.
09-25-2007 07:53 PM
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bluesox Offline
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Post: #85
RE: How horrid would the ACC be had they gotten first choice Syracuse? Discuss.
Well, the basis for the thread was v.tech would have been left out of the acc but no i don't think v.tech would ever leave the acc for the sec. I do think the sec might have been interested in going to 14 with v.tech and w.virg, i think if there was another team to pair with w.virg, like texas A&M, the sec might also jump to 14. Of course, my own view is the acc and big east would be better off if BC and Miami jumped back to the big east, thus you got two 10 team leagues and that would settle the matter.
09-26-2007 10:28 AM
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EvilVodkaX Offline
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Post: #86
RE: How horrid would the ACC be had they gotten first choice Syracuse? Discuss.
Krocker Krapp Wrote:The SEC has 12 teams. That is the perfect number for them. There is no reason for them, or any other BCS conference, to expand for 14 teams. I really wish people would drop this tired old topic. As a matter of fact, it isn't just tired, it's freaking dead.

The Big Ten might - SMALL MIGHT - expand but it should not be with a Big East school. They should go after Nebraska. The Cornhuskers are one of the greatest programs ever and would bring incredible excitement to a West Division of the Big Ten.

Imagine the future Rivalry Week battles between Nebraska and Wisconsin every year that would, most likely, decide who wins the Big Ten West. Iowa would be in the mix sometimes - of course - while Minnesota, Illinois, and Northwestern bottom fed.

Ohio State and Michigan would obviously dominate the Big Ten East with Penn State sometimes jumping into the mix. Michigan State, Purdue, and Indiana would round out the rest of the cast. That is the best possible set up for their conference.

For the most part, I agree with Krocker Krapp...the only conference that has any incentive at all to go to 14 is the Big 10, and that's purely because of their TV network...the main candidates are Nebraska, Missouri, and Rutgers, and IMO they should and will probably take Nebraska...unless TV network people get Delaney thinking of taking all 3...

probably won't happen, but right now the Big 10 is closer to getting 14 than anyone IMO, because there's a real incentive

then they can make a new logo -- The Big (IV)X
09-26-2007 11:09 AM
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Orange Eagles Offline
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Post: #87
RE: How horrid would the ACC be had they gotten first choice Syracuse? Discuss.
Not sure Rutgers would actually be a higher candidate than Syracuse:

http://orange44.blogspot.com/2007_07_01_archive.html

Quote:It is not surprising to see that the Big Ten Conference's announcement that expansion is back on the league's agenda has captured the intrigue of the college football community. Syracuse, according to the Des Moines Register, is an apparent target for membership. Many individuals and media outlets have weighed in on Syracuse's candidacy. The sentiments have ranged from surprise to knee-jerk acceptance.

The most interesting aspect, though, is that Syracuse appears to have anticipated such a candidacy. At best, the institution has put such circumstances in motion.

Pertinently, Jim Delaney -- the Big Ten Conference's current Commissioner -- would not announce such an endeavor had he not already engaged in some sort of investigatory experiment. In order to adequately gauge which direction expansion would take place, conversations must have occurred, both within and without of the conference. To do otherwise would lead to some degree of chaos if proper preparation and due diligence did not occur.

Such an assumption is grounded in Penn State's migration to the Big Ten Conference. While set in secrecy, the expansion did not occur on a whim. Penn State knew it was a target and prepared accordingly.

This is where Syracuse comes in. Ever since the Orange failed to move to the Atlantic Coast Conference, much speculation has taken place as to the viability of the Big East Conference. To assume that Syracuse has not explored options to secure its athletic future is to ignore the fact that the Big East Conference is, at best, a loose affiliation of universities attempting to sustain order through an otherwise tenuously beneficial relationship.

To wit, Jake Crouthamel and the Syracuse administration dragged its feet through the Atlantic Coast Conference membership evaluation process, yet was still prepared to accept an offer if extended. The only reason the migration did not occur was because of the Virginia legislature's strong-arming of Atlantic Coast Conference Commissioner John Swofford.

Moreover, Syracuse's abstention from the lawsuit against the Big East Conference defectors supports the notion that the university maintained the foresight to recognize that if in the future Syracuse would receive another membership offer, it would not erode or tarnish the goodwill it has created with its Big East Conference affiliates.

This prior history strongly indicates that Syracuse is far from opposed to changing its league affiliation. In contrast, it shows that Syracuse has been open to assessing its options should an opportunity arise.

The opportunity, apparently, has arise. The only thing that is up to debate is when the opportunity first arose. Given Syracuse's actions over the last two years, the possibility likely arose long before Jim Delaney gave his interview to the Des Moines Register.

The facts are almost oppressive:

- The Big Ten Conference is looking to target the New York City market. For at least the last two years Syracuse has put out a marketing blitz in The City. From establishing a radio affiliate, to hanging billboard and taxi signs, to an affiliation with SNY, Syracuse's "Orange in the Apple" campaign appears eerily consistent with the Big Ten's desire.

- The Big Ten Conference is built on regional support of its collegiate members. When you have large state institutions, large regional partisans are bound to follow. Syracuse -- one of upstate New York's many private universities -- has attempted to extend its reach through an effort to label the Orange as New York's "team." From stickers on helmets to banners in the Carrier Dome, the Syracuse Department of Athletics is trying to develop a state school feel in a private environment.

- The Big Ten Conference is all about tradition and an old-school Saturday afternoon feel. Syracuse's branding effort over the last few seasons has brought back the throwback look. From uniforms to a new/old "Block S" logo, Syracuse's branding is in-line with that of the Big Ten Conference (even if met with mixed reviews).

Then there is the scheduling. While put in motion well before Dr. Daryl Gross took the reigns, it has shown that Syracuse has and will compete in the Big Ten Conference. In just the last two seasons Syracuse has faced Illinois and Iowa. In the near future, Syracuse will square off against Northwestern, Penn State, and the aforementioned last two clubs.

Finally, there are Syracuse's facilities upgrades. The Carrier Dome has received extensive upgrades and cosmetic facelifts. At the Lampe Athletic Complex, Syracuse has pretty much overhauled the entire site, constructing a new, state-of-the-art weight room, installed new practice fields, and brought the entire complex up to contemporary standards. Such developments are not just to lure recruits; it is to lure potential conference suitors.

The evidence is not overwhelming, but it is at least inducive of the fact that Syracuse may have heard of the opportunity previously and is preparing for a full exploration.

If this is actually the case, then one would assume that Syracuse is a serious candidate if not a primary candidate. That fact puts Syracuse in a position of leverage not seen since the great league debacle of 2003.

“If you are out of trouble, watch for danger”
- Sophocles

Mike Tranghese -- Commissioner of the Big East Conference -- was on top of the world just two weeks ago. Captaining a league that had survived what was then perceived as a fatal attack, Tranghese spoke with steely confidence about the Big East's terrific 2006 gridiron campaign and the expectations and anticipations surrounding the conference's 2007 effort.

And now, Tranghese is once again forced to try and find success in circumstances that are bound to resolve in only misery. The difference between these circumstances and those that transpired in 2003, however, is that the Big East will, in all but one circumstance, not survive.

The story is fairly straightforward: Big Ten Commissioner Jim Delaney wants to expand the Big Ten in order to buoy the conference's television network. The targets? At this point, some combination of Notre Dame, Rutgers, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, Nebraska, Missouri, and pretty much every other school not residing in the southeast or on the west coast.

Before assessing Syracuse's particular position in this realignment, the ramifications of the realignment must first be understood. This is necessary as Syracuse -- much like its conference mates -- will not maintain the status quo should the Orange not receive an invitation to the Midwest's premier collegiate athletic conference.

Scenario I: Big Ten Invites Notre Dame

Facts: The Big Ten offers Notre Dame a seat at the league table. Notre Dame, surprisingly, accepts the offer. No other conference realignments occur.

Analysis: Quite simply, this is Mike Tranghese's dream scenario. The Big East stays in tact while Notre Dame -- long a leech on the Big East's being -- is finally jettisoned from the league. In essence, everybody wins; the Big Ten gets its "big fish" and the Big East maintains the status quo of resurgence.

Syracuse Impact: Most importantly, however, Syracuse University is not materially affected. It is still a member of a viable athletic conference with members that maintain above-average to elite athletic programs.

Scenario II: Big East Member Bolts to the Big Ten

Facts: The Big Ten extends a membership offer to either Syracuse, Rutgers, or Pittsburgh (these are the only three Big East institutions that satisfy the conference's academic requirements). One of the aforementioned institutions accepts the offer.

The Big East is left with only seven football playing members. Mike Tranghese, once again, is left to plug the holes on the Big East's sinking ship.

Analysis: There is a reason that direct hits are, more likely than not, fatal.

The Big East survived this scenario in 2003 when John Swofford and the Atlantic Coast Conference snatched Miami, Virginia Tech, and Boston College from the Big East. At that time, however, a secondary option was available that, while sour, was not unacceptable. That option was Conference USA, a league built to be the Big East of the Midwest but never found its momentum.

This time, contrastingly, an acceptable secondary option does not exist. Navy, Central Florida, East Carolina, and arguably every other institution east of the Mississippi River do not match (either academically or athletically) the institutional models of Pittsburgh, Syracuse, or Rutgers. These are classic eastern universities that cannot be replicated through replacement.

In essence, the Big East would be trading a ten dollar bill for a five. The only consequence is a watered-down version of the original.

Syracuse Impact: If Syracuse is not the institution that receives and accepts the offer, an unmitigated fatal blow. The Big East cannot survive without Pittsburgh or Syracuse. These are the only two institutions that maintain a national reputation on the football field and on the hardwood. Without one, the conference losses almost all of its cache and marketability.

More importantly, however, is that the Big East is bound to take on another member that does not rise to the level of Syracuse's academic and athletic missions. Syracuse is not Harvard (nor should it be), but it clearly is not East Carolina or Central Florida. These are not academic or athletic peers; rather, these institutions are merely friends of necessity.

That is not a recipe for success.

With the Big East hobbling atop a single leg, the upward climb Syracuse would have to make in order to restore credibility is almost impossible. Even in terrific campaigns, Brigham Young has had to plead and whine for national attention. Texas Christian may fall under the same circumstances this season. Should Syracuse remain in a Big East devoid of Pittsburgh or Rutgers, it would be in the same situation as the aforementioned Mountain West Conference members.

The Orange may as well cut its losses (both literally and figuratively) and move to Division I-AA. In that effort, Jim Boeheim can keep his placement in the Big East while football program costs are recategorized from "pointless hemorrhaging" to "respectable under the circumstances."

Scenario III: Non-Big East Member Bolts to the Big Ten

Facts: The Big Ten offers membership to a non-Big East member institution (the leaders at this juncture appear to be Big XII members Nebraska, Missouri, or Iowa State). The institution accepts the offer and becomes the Big Ten's twelfth member.

As a result of the move, the Big XII looks to fill-out its membership. Arkansas, a former member of the Southwest Conference and rumored to be dissatisfied with its membership in the Southeastern Conference, receives a membership offer from the Big XII. Arkansas accepts the invitation in order to renew its rivalries with Texas institutions.

Now short one member, the Southeastern Conference scours every school south of the Mason-Dixon line for a member. Louisville and West Virginia are targeted and one of the institutions receives an offer and accepts. The Big East is now down to seven football playing institutions.

Analysis: See, Scenario II: Big East Member Bolts to the Big Ten.

The Case for Syracuse

Editors Note: Honestly, Syracuse should not be the Big Ten's first option. Brian Cook has labeled Syracuse as a "Plan B" and I do not disagree. Notre Dame, Pittsburgh, and Missouri are clearly better options due to their geographic location. However, what follows is merely the case for the Orange due to the above analyses.

As noted, Syracuse needs to both generate and accept a membership offer from the Big Ten. To do so puts over a century of athletic development in serious jeopardy.

Positives

Despite its recent woes on the gridiron, Syracuse is still the 14th winningest program in college football history. All programs go through periods of downturn; the programs with a rich tradition of success almost always rebound to recapture past glory. Syracuse -- until proven otherwise -- is bound to find its way to success once again. No other school associated with the Big Ten's expansion plans (with the exception of Nebraska) matches Syracuse's record.

Syracuse maintains arguably one of the most recognized college basketball brands in the country. Jim Boeheim's presence on the sideline should not change a century of excellence on the hardwood (through 2004, Syracuse is the sixth winningest program in college basketball history).

Syracuse is an academic peer to Big Ten member institutions. As a member of the Association of American Universities, it maintains a status amongst the nation's premier research institutions.

Syracuse maintains, unsurprisingly, an incredible national media presence. With so many S.I. Newhouse School of Public Communications graduates populating mainstream media outlets, the Orange has kept its national television presence despite fielding underachieving football squads the last two seasons. This should undoubtedly contribute to the Big Ten's media exposure.

No institution is going to dominate the New York City market, but if any is going to, it could be Syracuse. The Orange already has an arrangement with New York's ESPN Radio affiliate and SNY (New York's newest all sports television network) religiously broadcasts Syracuse's sports magazine programs, basketball contests, lacrosse games, and regionally-produced football games. Throw in a sizeable alumni base in the greater metropolitan area and you have as strong a presence in New York City area as any other major university.

Syracuse's location is fairly accessible to the Midwest. It may have an east coast feel, but it is not an outpost like Boston College is to the Atlantic Coast Conference.

Syracuse has a fairly long tradition with the Big Ten. In the last decade or so, Syracuse has squared off against almost every institution currently within the conference. Throw in a long standing rivalry with Penn State and Syracuse has maintained an extended athletic relationship with the conference as a whole.
Negatives

As a relatively small and selective private university, Syracuse only has one potential peer in the Big Ten: Northwestern. Given the Wildcats' success in the conference, serious doubt surrounds how Syracuse can compete with large land grant universities.

Syracuse maintains a relatively small athletic program. Hockey is on the horizon, but until the Orange takes to the ice, the university is only fielding 19 varsity sports (with swimming and diving coming off the ledger next year). This is not totally congruent with the Big Ten's eleven members.

Accessible from the Midwest, but a difficult trip nonetheless.

Have you seen the football team lately?
09-26-2007 11:33 AM
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Krocker Krapp Offline
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Post: #88
RE: How horrid would the ACC be had they gotten first choice Syracuse? Discuss.
The Big Ten needs to do the intelligent thing and go after Nebraska. A league with their conservative nature is not going to jump from 11 teams to 14 teams either. They should get Nebraska, try the 12 team thing, expand their profile, and make lots of money.

BIG TEN WEST
Nebraska
Iowa
Minnesota
Wisconsin
Northwestern
Illinois

BIG TEN EAST
Purdue
Indiana
Michigan State
Michigan
Ohio State
Penn State

The geography is perfect in that scenario. The East/West split runs crisply along the Indiana/Illinois border. Even the color schemes of everyone's uniforms balance out well. Nebraska and Wisconsin would be the perfect foils for the Michigan and Ohio State rivalry.
09-26-2007 02:55 PM
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bluesox Offline
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Post: #89
RE: How horrid would the ACC be had they gotten first choice Syracuse? Discuss.
Here are my 3 big 10 expansion set ups:

ND joins
#1
NW
ND
IU
PUR
MSU
PSU
#2
ILL
WIS
MIN
IO
UM
OSU

BIG EAST Team joins
#1
NW
ILL
IU
PUR
UM
OSU
#2
WIS
MIN
IO
MSU
PSU
Pitt/Syra/Rut

BIG 12 Team joins
#1
NW
ILL
WIS
MIN
IO
MO or Neb
#2
UM
MSU
IU
PUR
OSU
PSU
09-27-2007 02:28 PM
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KnightLight Offline
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Post: #90
RE: How horrid would the ACC be had they gotten first choice Syracuse? Discuss.
Well..after 2 of the worst ACC teams beat a Top 10 Big East Team on the road...and then another good Big East Team at home...while another MAC team beat ANOTHER Big East Team again...I think the ACC is feeling just fine this AM.
09-30-2007 10:55 AM
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HiddenDragon Offline
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Post: #91
RE: How horrid would the ACC be had they gotten first choice Syracuse? Discuss.
Yeah I think the ACC is doing OK as well. I still think the Big 12 sucks but all of the other BCS conferences seem to be very balance across the board.
09-30-2007 11:52 AM
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