Chi-Town Wrote:

Big Ol Pimp Wrote:

tigergreen Wrote:

DallasTiger Wrote:

DallasTiger Wrote:There are definately parts of the Old Testament that are fairy tales. As an example, if there was really a great flood that covered the world and Noah built the Ark, how did the llamas get to South America and the Kangaroos get to Austrailia? The Ark would have to have been built at a time when there were a lot of people on the earth and there was the ability to build a large boat. It is things like this that bring the Old Testament into question.

I am merely questioning the Noah's Ark story in the Old Testament. It is hard to believe that Noah found the American Bison, Kangaroos and Llamas in the Middle East, put them in this large boat and somehow these animals found their way to America and Australia without leaving any trace that they ever inhabited the Middle East or anywhere between there and their natural habitat. Exactly, how did they get from modern day Turkey to those locations and over what period of time? If all animals originated from the Ark...how come there are any animals at all in South America? How did they traverse from Turkey to there in a few thousand years? Was Noah before or after dinasours? If before, how did he get all the dinosaurs on the Ark? It goes on and on and makes little logical sense. On the other hand, the New Testament is the story of the life of Jesus Christ and is much more factual and believable.

Scientists & many people of faith believe that in the time of Noah, the world was not laid out as it is now - the world was one "supercontinent" called Pangea:

http://www.biosbcc.net/ocean/marinesci/0...pangea.jpg

there was an "evolution," if you will, of the earth's plates, causing these land masses to shift, causing the separation of the continents. so these different animals could have easily moved to certain climates & vegetations & remained there, even as the land masses drifted further & further apart.

So kangaroos were hopping around with dinosaurs? Why weren't dinosaurs on the Ark?

Here's a little better illustration of Pangea.

Continental drift could not have occurred in the limited time frame that the bible gives from Noah until now.

Either way though, that must have been one smelly ship.

Agreed. Isn't Noah's Arc supposed to have occurred within the last couple thousand years? Pangea was around hundreds of million years ago.

Big Ol Pimp Wrote:

Chi-Town Wrote:

Big Ol Pimp Wrote:

tigergreen Wrote:

DallasTiger Wrote:

DallasTiger Wrote:There are definately parts of the Old Testament that are fairy tales. As an example, if there was really a great flood that covered the world and Noah built the Ark, how did the llamas get to South America and the Kangaroos get to Austrailia? The Ark would have to have been built at a time when there were a lot of people on the earth and there was the ability to build a large boat. It is things like this that bring the Old Testament into question.

I am merely questioning the Noah's Ark story in the Old Testament. It is hard to believe that Noah found the American Bison, Kangaroos and Llamas in the Middle East, put them in this large boat and somehow these animals found their way to America and Australia without leaving any trace that they ever inhabited the Middle East or anywhere between there and their natural habitat. Exactly, how did they get from modern day Turkey to those locations and over what period of time? If all animals originated from the Ark...how come there are any animals at all in South America? How did they traverse from Turkey to there in a few thousand years? Was Noah before or after dinasours? If before, how did he get all the dinosaurs on the Ark? It goes on and on and makes little logical sense. On the other hand, the New Testament is the story of the life of Jesus Christ and is much more factual and believable.

Scientists & many people of faith believe that in the time of Noah, the world was not laid out as it is now - the world was one "supercontinent" called Pangea:

http://www.biosbcc.net/ocean/marinesci/0...pangea.jpg

there was an "evolution," if you will, of the earth's plates, causing these land masses to shift, causing the separation of the continents. so these different animals could have easily moved to certain climates & vegetations & remained there, even as the land masses drifted further & further apart.

So kangaroos were hopping around with dinosaurs? Why weren't dinosaurs on the Ark?

Here's a little better illustration of Pangea.

Continental drift could not have occurred in the limited time frame that the bible gives from Noah until now.

Either way though, that must have been one smelly ship.

Agreed. Isn't Noah's Arc supposed to have occurred within the last couple thousand years? Pangea was around hundreds of million years ago.

If you believe that it was literally a few thousand years in the way that we know years now. Time's relative. Genesis says that God created the world in "7 days," but who's to say how long a "day" was that Moses was referring to? Same thing with all these people living for hundreds of years in the Old Testament...Methuselah was 969 years old when he died - but what constituted a "year?"

tigergreen Wrote:

Big Ol Pimp Wrote:

Chi-Town Wrote:

Big Ol Pimp Wrote:

tigergreen Wrote:

DallasTiger Wrote:

DallasTiger Wrote:There are definately parts of the Old Testament that are fairy tales. As an example, if there was really a great flood that covered the world and Noah built the Ark, how did the llamas get to South America and the Kangaroos get to Austrailia? The Ark would have to have been built at a time when there were a lot of people on the earth and there was the ability to build a large boat. It is things like this that bring the Old Testament into question.

I am merely questioning the Noah's Ark story in the Old Testament. It is hard to believe that Noah found the American Bison, Kangaroos and Llamas in the Middle East, put them in this large boat and somehow these animals found their way to America and Australia without leaving any trace that they ever inhabited the Middle East or anywhere between there and their natural habitat. Exactly, how did they get from modern day Turkey to those locations and over what period of time? If all animals originated from the Ark...how come there are any animals at all in South America? How did they traverse from Turkey to there in a few thousand years? Was Noah before or after dinasours? If before, how did he get all the dinosaurs on the Ark? It goes on and on and makes little logical sense. On the other hand, the New Testament is the story of the life of Jesus Christ and is much more factual and believable.

Scientists & many people of faith believe that in the time of Noah, the world was not laid out as it is now - the world was one "supercontinent" called Pangea:

http://www.biosbcc.net/ocean/marinesci/0...pangea.jpg

there was an "evolution," if you will, of the earth's plates, causing these land masses to shift, causing the separation of the continents. so these different animals could have easily moved to certain climates & vegetations & remained there, even as the land masses drifted further & further apart.

So kangaroos were hopping around with dinosaurs? Why weren't dinosaurs on the Ark?

Here's a little better illustration of Pangea.

Continental drift could not have occurred in the limited time frame that the bible gives from Noah until now.

Either way though, that must have been one smelly ship.

Agreed. Isn't Noah's Arc supposed to have occurred within the last couple thousand years? Pangea was around hundreds of million years ago.

If you believe that it was literally a few thousand years in the way that we know years now. Time's relative. Genesis says that God created the world in "7 days," but who's to say how long a "day" was that Moses was referring to? Same thing with all these people living for hundreds of years in the Old Testament...Methuselah was 969 years old when he died - but what constituted a "year?"

I see your point, I think. You are kinda saying it could also have been a "lost in translation" situation. Hypothetical example: centimeter gets translated to millimeter during a translation. This totally changes the meaning and would throw off calculations. Am I on the right track?

tigergreen Wrote:If you believe that it was literally a few thousand years in the way that we know years now. Time's relative. Genesis says that God created the world in "7 days," but who's to say how long a "day" was that Moses was referring to? Same thing with all these people living for hundreds of years in the Old Testament...Methuselah was 969 years old when he died - but what constituted a "year?"

One commonly believed theory is that these are the result of translation errors where lunar cycles were mistaken for solar cycles. That would've meant they were recorded as being 12.37 older than they really were, putting Methuselah at about 78 years old. Definitely old for that era, but not by today's standards.

TigerTwice Wrote:

tigergreen Wrote:If you believe that it was literally a few thousand years in the way that we know years now. Time's relative. Genesis says that God created the world in "7 days," but who's to say how long a "day" was that Moses was referring to? Same thing with all these people living for hundreds of years in the Old Testament...Methuselah was 969 years old when he died - but what constituted a "year?"

One commonly believed theory is that these are the result of translation errors where lunar cycles were mistaken for solar cycles. That would've meant they were recorded as being 12.37 older than they really were, putting Methuselah at about 78 years old. Definitely old for that era, but not by today's standards.

Right. The calendar that we use only came about in Rome (I think?)...it's possible that the concept of months/days/years applied to different quantities that evolved over time.

uofmcamaro Wrote:As far as the sin issue is concerned and y'all thinking "God is a bad guy for letting good people go to hell" issue. The only thing God asks of us is that we trust, believe and live in him. You can be a good person your whole life and not know God and that is enough to seperate you from him. God also allows us to make our own decisions. All people will be judged. That is biblical. We are all going to be judged for our actions here on earth. I believe that a lot of people who claim to be christians aren't. I am not saying that actions get you into heaven, but they show where your heart is. I have friends at church who don't live a christian life very much and I wonder about their relationship with God. Of course God wants you to be a good person, but he is a just God and out of all the commandments he gave us, the one that matters to him is to know him and make him known. There is my best explanation to the Ghandi issue. God is a just God and will allow us to make decisions, but out of our decisions, we reap what we sow. Whatever we do we will face what happens from it. I guess I am done now.

So what you're saying is, 4000 years ago, everyone went to hell but a small little slave tribe in Egypt, and were damned to hell without a choice because they had no knowledge of "God" and had no means of being told of God.

It makes perfect sense when you put it like that.

Chi-Town Wrote:

Quote:Which poses another question...what if no religion on earth is right...what if, when we die, we just decompose and that's it?

I was staying out of this, but could not help but notice that you were the only one who mentions this as a possibility. Hmmmmm....

Probably the most interesting question in the bunch.

Dang, I thought this statement would get some play. I try to stir things up and no one plays along. I need more practice.

I still say it is the most interesting question.....that apparently nobody wants to touch.

Chi-Town Wrote:

Chi-Town Wrote:

Quote:Which poses another question...what if no religion on earth is right...what if, when we die, we just decompose and that's it?

I was staying out of this, but could not help but notice that you were the only one who mentions this as a possibility. Hmmmmm....

Probably the most interesting question in the bunch.

Dang, I thought this statement would get some play. I try to stir things up and no one plays along. I need more practice.

I still say it is the most interesting question.....that apparently nobody wants to touch.

This one has crossed my mind as well.

Of course, with all this evolution -vs- creationism stuff, why can't it be that both are true. I say God put evolution in motion, therefore "Creating" evolution.

kpigout Wrote:

Chi-Town Wrote:

Chi-Town Wrote:

Quote:Which poses another question...what if no religion on earth is right...what if, when we die, we just decompose and that's it?

I was staying out of this, but could not help but notice that you were the only one who mentions this as a possibility. Hmmmmm....

Probably the most interesting question in the bunch.

Dang, I thought this statement would get some play. I try to stir things up and no one plays along. I need more practice.

I still say it is the most interesting question.....that apparently nobody wants to touch.

This one has crossed my mind as well.

Of course, with all this evolution -vs- creationism stuff, why can't it be that both are true. I say God put evolution in motion, therefore "Creating" evolution.

If it all should be just a bunch of bunk, which I know by faith its not, but just for the sake of saying it , I would still choose to go thru this life believing. I can't imagine making it thru if you don't.
JMHO

tigerloyal Wrote:

kpigout Wrote:

Chi-Town Wrote:

Chi-Town Wrote:

Quote:Which poses another question...what if no religion on earth is right...what if, when we die, we just decompose and that's it?

I was staying out of this, but could not help but notice that you were the only one who mentions this as a possibility. Hmmmmm....

Probably the most interesting question in the bunch.

Dang, I thought this statement would get some play. I try to stir things up and no one plays along. I need more practice.

I still say it is the most interesting question.....that apparently nobody wants to touch.

This one has crossed my mind as well.

Of course, with all this evolution -vs- creationism stuff, why can't it be that both are true. I say God put evolution in motion, therefore "Creating" evolution.

If it all should be just a bunch of bunk, which I know by faith its not, but just for the sake of saying it , I would still choose to go thru this life believing. I can't imagine making it thru if you don't.
JMHO

I don't believe it to be bunk either Loyal. I'm one of those that believe the truth is probably interwoven in between all of this stuff. I just believe in God and Jesus in my own way. Kinda like the old Don Williams song..."I don't believe that Heaven waits...For only those that congregate..."

the only question i have is,
what negative does attending church have on ones life. to me its
a positive experience and only helps you see what choices you
should make through life.

jgardne Wrote:

uofmcamaro Wrote:As far as the sin issue is concerned and y'all thinking "God is a bad guy for letting good people go to hell" issue. The only thing God asks of us is that we trust, believe and live in him. You can be a good person your whole life and not know God and that is enough to seperate you from him. God also allows us to make our own decisions. All people will be judged. That is biblical. We are all going to be judged for our actions here on earth. I believe that a lot of people who claim to be christians aren't. I am not saying that actions get you into heaven, but they show where your heart is. I have friends at church who don't live a christian life very much and I wonder about their relationship with God. Of course God wants you to be a good person, but he is a just God and out of all the commandments he gave us, the one that matters to him is to know him and make him known. There is my best explanation to the Ghandi issue. God is a just God and will allow us to make decisions, but out of our decisions, we reap what we sow. Whatever we do we will face what happens from it. I guess I am done now.

So what you're saying is, 4000 years ago, everyone went to hell but a small little slave tribe in Egypt, and were damned to hell without a choice because they had no knowledge of "God" and had no means of being told of God.

It makes perfect sense when you put it like that.

Haven't been around my computer today so I haven't got to explain until now, sorry. No, that isn't exatly the case. Up until Jesus death on the cross, people believe in God and had sacrifices for God. They would bring a lamb or something like that and sacrifice to God. When Jesus died on the cross, he became our sacrifice. That is how people had salvation back in the day. As far as people in Africa who have never heard of the message of God, it would only be my understanding that they are doomed to a worse fate. I may be, and hope to be wrong, but I have no idea. I will say that the blood of these people are on our hands (as Christians) because we obviously didn't do our part of the great commision by telling them. Again, this is what I assume on some of this. The bible has a ton of grey area's though.

memphomike Wrote:the only question i have is,
what negative does attending church have on ones life. to me its
a positive experience and only helps you see what choices you
should make through life.

Depends on the church you attend. I wouldn't have any problem attending some churches and have enjoyed the overall experience with the people and sometimes the message/sermon. I'm not down with the "fire & brimstone" approach of certain denominations and it wouldn't be a positive experience. You can have a positive experience and see what choices you should make in life by watching a "Facts of Life" marathon on TV Land.

I also had a very positive experience eating breakfast & then going down to Mud Island, riding the monorail, walking through the museum, and splashing in the river walk with my wife & kids last Sunday.

There's nothing wrong with the Christian doctrine. I work with kids through Memphis Athletic Ministries & coach youth soccer in the East Shelby Church Recreation Association (both of which require prayer before each game, which I sometimes lead!), and even send my kids to private Christian schools. I just don't happen to share their belief system.

The "rub" for many comes from two sources: 1) trying to convince others to subscribe to your belief system when you have no proof that it's true or accurate and 2) judging those who don't share that belief system when many of the same people judging don't adhere to the principals themselves, but merely claim to.

I don't have a rub with the doctrine itself. I simply see it as a tactic used to get people to be better people.

TigerTwice Wrote:

memphomike Wrote:the only question i have is,
what negative does attending church have on ones life. to me its
a positive experience and only helps you see what choices you
should make through life.

Depends on the church you attend. I wouldn't have any problem attending some churches and have enjoyed the overall experience with the people and sometimes the message/sermon. I'm not down with the "fire & brimstone" approach of certain denominations and it wouldn't be a positive experience.

Quote: You can have a positive experience and see what choices you should make in life by watching a "Facts of Life" marathon on TV Land.

lmfao

Quote:I also had a very positive experience eating breakfast & then going down to Mud Island, riding the monorail, walking through the museum, and splashing in the river walk with my wife & kids last Sunday.

There's nothing wrong with the Christian doctrine. I work with kids through Memphis Athletic Ministries & coach youth soccer in the East Shelby Church Recreation Association (both of which require prayer before each game, which I sometimes lead!), and even send my kids to private Christian schools. I just don't happen to share their belief system.

The "rub" for many comes from two sources: 1) trying to convince others to subscribe to your belief system when you have no proof that it's true or accurate and 2) judging those who don't share that belief system when many of the same people judging don't adhere to the principals themselves, but merely claim to.

You are correct in both, IMO.

Quote:I don't have a rub with the doctrine itself. I simply see it as a tactic used to get people to be better people.

Really, isn't that what all religion is about in a nutshell? "Better people" can be defined by each religion within their own doctrine, but that is still the bottom line, IMO. Organized religion defines for you a way of life that you are supposed to adhere to.....or else.

Some people need that belief to make it through their daily lives and others choose it to enhance their daily lives, but I think it is important to respect all belief systems, yes, even those that are agnostic or aetheist. I may get blasted for that, but I know people who live great lives, instill appropriate moral value in their children and even expose their children to a belief in God, yet they themselves do not believe. I have faith that if they truly lead their lives in this fashion, and they end up being wrong, (and going against everything I was taught in my Catholic upbringing) I have a real hard time believing that an all knowing, all powerful, all forgiving God will refuse to reward their life spent on earth making it a better place.

BTW, I have read the entire Left Behind series by Lahaye/Jenkins. If the rapture occurs tomorrow and I end up looking around to see where everybody went, I am moving to Chicago to head up a Tribulation Force if anyone is interested in joining.

Chi-Town Wrote:

TigerTwice Wrote:

memphomike Wrote:the only question i have is,
what negative does attending church have on ones life. to me its
a positive experience and only helps you see what choices you
should make through life.

Depends on the church you attend. I wouldn't have any problem attending some churches and have enjoyed the overall experience with the people and sometimes the message/sermon. I'm not down with the "fire & brimstone" approach of certain denominations and it wouldn't be a positive experience.

Quote: You can have a positive experience and see what choices you should make in life by watching a "Facts of Life" marathon on TV Land.

lmfao

Quote:I also had a very positive experience eating breakfast & then going down to Mud Island, riding the monorail, walking through the museum, and splashing in the river walk with my wife & kids last Sunday.

There's nothing wrong with the Christian doctrine. I work with kids through Memphis Athletic Ministries & coach youth soccer in the East Shelby Church Recreation Association (both of which require prayer before each game, which I sometimes lead!), and even send my kids to private Christian schools. I just don't happen to share their belief system.

The "rub" for many comes from two sources: 1) trying to convince others to subscribe to your belief system when you have no proof that it's true or accurate and 2) judging those who don't share that belief system when many of the same people judging don't adhere to the principals themselves, but merely claim to.

You are correct in both, IMO.

Quote:I don't have a rub with the doctrine itself. I simply see it as a tactic used to get people to be better people.

Really, isn't that what all religion is about in a nutshell? "Better people" can be defined by each religion within their own doctrine, but that is still the bottom line, IMO. Organized religion defines for you a way of life that you are supposed to adhere to.....or else.

Some people need that belief to make it through their daily lives and others choose it to enhance their daily lives, but I think it is important to respect all belief systems, yes, even those that are agnostic or aetheist. I may get blasted for that, but I know people who live great lives, instill appropriate moral value in their children and even expose their children to a belief in God, yet they themselves do not believe. I have faith that if they truly lead their lives in this fashion, and they end up being wrong, (and going against everything I was taught in my Catholic upbringing) I have a real hard time believing that an all knowing, all powerful, all forgiving God will refuse to reward their life spent on earth making it a better place.

BTW, I have read the entire Left Behind series by Lahaye/Jenkins. If the rapture occurs tomorrow and I end up looking around to see where everybody went, I am moving to Chicago to head up a Tribulation Force if anyone is interested in joining.

I don't like agreeing with you. I feel like I need a shower now.

Chi-Town Wrote:Some people need that belief to make it through their daily lives and others choose it to enhance their daily lives, but I think it is important to respect all belief systems, yes, even those that are agnostic or aetheist. I may get blasted for that, but I know people who live great lives, instill appropriate moral value in their children and even expose their children to a belief in God, yet they themselves do not believe. I have faith that if they truly lead their lives in this fashion, and they end up being wrong, (and going against everything I was taught in my Catholic upbringing) I have a real hard time believing that an all knowing, all powerful, all forgiving God will refuse to reward their life spent on earth making it a better place.

:clap2: :clap2: :clap2:

its not an adhere to or else policy to me. i attend because i know i am
not perfect. i dont attend because i think it makes me perfect.
twice to me there is a big diff in a positive ongoing experience and
doing something fun. to me attending church provides my family a
foundation that is much needed in this world today.

memphomike Wrote:twice to me there is a big diff in a positive ongoing experience and
doing something fun. to me attending church provides my family a
foundation that is much needed in this world today.

We have positive ongoing experiences on a regular basis. They're just not the same thing every week. Most of the time it's making M&M pancakes Church provides that foundation for your family & I applaud that. For mine, it's struggling a little more financially than we need to in order for my wife to stay home with the kids.

What I don't understand (and this is not aimed at you mike, just a general observation) is why most people of faith have trouble believing that it's entirely possible for others to live balanced, moral (well, somewhat), positive lives without being Christians.

TigerTwice Wrote:

memphomike Wrote:twice to me there is a big diff in a positive ongoing experience and
doing something fun. to me attending church provides my family a
foundation that is much needed in this world today.

We have positive ongoing experiences on a regular basis. They're just not the same thing every week. Most of the time it's making M&M pancakes Church provides that foundation for your family & I applaud that. For mine, it's struggling a little more financially than we need to in order for my wife to stay home with the kids.

What I don't understand (and this is not aimed at you mike, just a general observation) is why most people of faith have trouble believing that it's entirely possible for others to live balanced, moral (well, somewhat), positive lives without being Christians.

I'd like to see this answer atheist.

fsquid Wrote:

TigerTwice Wrote:

memphomike Wrote:twice to me there is a big diff in a positive ongoing experience and
doing something fun. to me attending church provides my family a
foundation that is much needed in this world today.

We have positive ongoing experiences on a regular basis. They're just not the same thing every week. Most of the time it's making M&M pancakes Church provides that foundation for your family & I applaud that. For mine, it's struggling a little more financially than we need to in order for my wife to stay home with the kids.

What I don't understand (and this is not aimed at you mike, just a general observation) is why most people of faith have trouble believing that it's entirely possible for others to live balanced, moral (well, somewhat), positive lives without being Christians.

I'd like to see this answer atheist.

Agnostic. I don't deny the existence of a God or gods, I merely think it's impossible to know. If there is, He/She is the same God for all of man and is not like the God described by Christians, Jews, or Muslims. I certainly don't think there is a heaven/hell and doubt that there is any type of afterlife at all.