Quote:more longstanding rule: to be a member of the MAC, you have to play Div-I football. If you drop or are dropped form D-I, you are automatically dropped from the conference. Very clear in the MAC by-laws.

Then how would you explain some of the schools that are listed as members of the MAC for "basketball only"? non-D-I schools could be affliate members, like those schools are.

But another issue; isn't the win-loss percentage of the schools left over based on wins to the three-aforementioned schools? In order to determine a legitimate percentage you would have to take out the wins to those schools and re-tabulate the W-L. My guess is that you don't get the same percentage. Except Marshall who lost to Akron - which would actually HELP.



<!--EDIT|Queen Amidala|Feb 24 2003, 07:11 PM-->

First, the MAC doesn't have affiliate basketball members, so I'm not sure I grasp the meaning of you first paragraph. The only affiliate members are Central Florida (football), Kentucky (soccer) and Louisville (field hockey).

And, yes, the MAC's Sagarin rating would not rise as much as I suggested. But it would rise. My guess is the MAC would pull even with Conference USA, at the very least.





<!--EDIT|RochesterFalcon|Feb 24 2003, 02:49 PM-->

Quote:members are Central Florida (football), Kentucky (soccer) and Louisville (field hockey).

my bad, I didn't have it in front of me, but seemed to remember affliate members, and thought it was women's basektball. That said, your statement then, that you can't be a member of the MAC without D-I football wouldn't apply, given the affliation status of Kentucky, and Louisville unless the rule is that you have to play Div-I football somewhere?

and IMO, having attended and worked at a C-USA school, the conference isn't BETTER than the MAC as far as quality of programs, it just has more money and some of its schools are located in bigger metropolitan areas - giving it greater exposure.

Special note to those select few without meaningful lives: Please feel free to e-mail University of Houston (see http://www.uh.edu) to report that I made the above statement.

We went through this before on another thread and someone even posted the MAC rule on this.
The affiliate schools like UCF, KY, and Louisville are not really members of the conference: we just let them play one sport in OUR conference. Perhaps you know this, but Kentucky is generally not considererd a member of the MAC. Kent, EMU, Buffalo--even Toledo and Marshall--are. If any of them were to drop D-I football, they would be dropped as conference members. There is not provision to be an affiliate member in, what, 20 sports?
And why, if we are not a full voting member of the MAC on equal footing with all the other schools, would we want to be?
My guess is that there will have to be a way to keep, for example, Kent State as D-I in football, if they are to stay in the MAC. Depends on the focus the MAC wants to have. If it wants to be primarily a football conference, well, it may be sayonara. If it wants to be a balanced conference it will do what it can to keep those schools who are the best in all sports.
EMU and Kent will not be hanging around because their national presences in basketball, field hockey, baseball, wrestling, cross country, track & field, and golf are something they feel obliged to contribute to the MAC for altruistic reasons. Like most enterprises, one hand washes another. :rolleyes:

I have no clue whether or not a rule will be adopted that could force the teams with low attendance to drop from I-A football. However, if it is, and if there are MAC teams that can't cut it, there is no way that teams like Toledo, Miami, Marshall, etc. will drop. There is also no way, imo, that the conference would boot schools like Kent and EMU. I'm relatively sure that the MAC would change its rules to ensure that the non-football schools could and would remain as full members with all of the benefits that entails.

Quote:If any of them were to drop D-I football, they would be dropped as conference members. There is not provision to be an affiliate member in, what, 20 sports?

I don't see why people are making such an issue of this rule. The answer is simple: Just change the rule.

Plenty of conferences get along just fine with a mix of Division I-A/AA/AAA schools. It leads to some drama -- note the tug of war between football and non-football schools in Conference USA -- but the Big East has managed fine for a long time.

The real drama is:

1. Will some MAC schools fail to make the I-A cut? (My guess: "Yes, a few.").
2. Will the MAC decide change its way of doing business to accommodate such schools? (I think the answer is "Yes." MAC ADs seem to get along, for the most part. But do people disagree with me?)
3. Will schools that don't make the I-A cut want to stay with the MAC? (This depends on the school, I guess).

I wouldn't get hung up on a conference rule. It can be changed.

Axeme,

Now you've gone and got me all excited! Kent in the Horizon, I think, would be great. It is a much better hoops league with Butler, Wisconsin-Milwaukee, Detroit and UIC. They do pretty well in the other winter sports, like Wrestling and Women's Hoops. Not sure about baseball, where KSU is alway's strong, but I'll check it out.

Face it, we haven't been any good in football for over 25 years and don't compete well in Division I anyway. I would much rather see the gas guzzling SUV of college sports, football, put on the back burner and have Kent devote resources to other sports where we are strong. We play like we are on the back burner, anyway, so won't know the difference.

We can play our other Ohio schools in a OOS schedule for rivalries.

Don't know what this means to the rest of the MAC. Like your post says, SI named us #59 in quality of overall sports programsamong all college programs, better than any other MAC school.

I'm being a bit selfish here, but the idea that we could go to the Horizon
(or even the Atlantic 10 with Xavier and Dayton for hoops ) is the best news in weeks. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Except for maybe Butler, the Horizon is a third rate league primarily made up of commuter schools. KSU doesn't fit this group. KSU is a better school academically and athletically than this group. I would imagine that with the quality of the rest of the sports and the level of b-ball over the last 4-5 years, IF KSU left the MAC (It won't happen!) ,they could garner a spot in the A-10.

KSU would never leave the MAC for the Horizon. F-ball would go D-1AA and compete as an independent, move to the Gateway Conf, or stay in the MAC as a 1-AA member for football playing 1-A schools (?). The last of these could be suicide with the scholarship differences, but could it be worse than it has been for the better part of the program's existance?

Quote:or stay in the MAC as a 1-AA member for football playing 1-A schools (?). The last of these could be suicide with the scholarship differences,

The NCAA would have to come up with a rule allowing that to happen for the MAC. As it stands, I-A schools will need five home games with like opponents starting in 2004. Even if the league wanted to keep Kent State football in the fold as a Division I-AA member -- perhaps in hopes that Kent State could turn it around in the stands the following year -- the league wouldn't be in a position to do so.

My take is that it will unfold like this:

1. Schools sink or swim in 2004. If they swim, no problem. They just need to keep swimming the following year.
2. If they sink, they'll become provisional Division I-A members in 2005. Think of it like probation. Schools on probation would not be able to compete for post season play, but they would could as a Division I-A member for other schools' scheduling purposes.
3. In 2005, schools on probation (hopefully) get their noses above the 15,000 mark. If they do, probation is over. If not... that's it. Time to call the Gateway and see if it needs new blood. Any school in this situation will not see it's football team play in the MAC in 2006.

As it stands, I think it would take schools three years or so to get back to Division I-A. It's hard to tell if the NCAA would pass a rule allowing schools to do that more quickly. So teams that get demoted will need to think a few years ahead, at the very least.

I should also say that I don't wish this on anyone. I know how painful it would be to me if Bowling Green were demoted to I-AA.

But I do wonder if some programs -- ones who have not done much at I-A in decades -- would find this a blessing in disguise.

I don't want to insult the Gateway by suggesting any MAC team would automatically win the league title. But I do think even some of our worst programs would be in the hunt right away there. Football would be fun again, and the crowds could start to return.

Getting "demoted" to D II A isn't anymore painful for me than watching KSU football over the last 20 years. I love KSU, but this love ain't blind and I don't see this program turning around anytime soon. (This point, by the way, is on a long list of things I hope to be proven wrong on; will take "told you so's" gladly next December.)

The only way I can imagine the Kent f-ball program getting any worse is to try in stay in the MAC competing at a DII level. It would kill our scholarships, making recruiting even tougher and keeping decent talent a constant struggle. In a year or two, we'd have to give out special prizes to the 1001st fan attending a home game.

What is so wrong with KSU leaving the MAC? Don't write off the Gateway/Horizon option so quickly. I think we could do pretty well in the Gateway in f-ball, win a few games and get back some support. The weakest sisters in the Horizon are actually the Ohio schools.
In addition to Butler, Loyola is very competitive acedemically and UIC is better than you'd think (shares significant undergrad acedemic resources with Champaign, has the U of I Medical School on campus with rumors of U of I Law School to follow). Yeah, they are mostly commuter schools, but so are DePaul and Marquette and I'd sign up in a conference with them any day. These are city schools. Plus, the Horizon gets much more media and recruiting attention in Chicago than the MAC because of their presence. (Northern Illinois is a spit in the ocean in Chi town in terms of attention and recruiting.) Here's the deal. The Horizon and MAC swap KSU and YSU. We upgrade Horizon and the MAC gets, well, YSU and their 18,000 football fans a game.

The Atlantic 10 may be another good option, but I need to learn more about it. And, there may be more.

Here's my bottom line. KSU shouldn't compete at a DII level in f-ball in a DI conference. Forget about "associate" memberships for picking off the programs the MAC wants, like basketball, wrestling, baseball, track. We are either in the MAC as a full member or we are not. And, if the answer is "we are not", I think KSU has much to offer elsewhere and may be better off. And, who knows, maybe there is another 33,000 student state university unaffiliated with any conference (or unhappy with the one they have) hiding somewhere the MAC doesn't know about yet.

P.s. Can we keep the Reese/Jacoby trophies and the championship banners in the MACC?

RochesterFalcon Wrote:My take is that it will unfold like this:

1. Schools sink or swim in 2004. If they swim, no problem. They just need to keep swimming the following year.
2. If they sink, they'll become provisional Division I-A members in 2005. Think of it like probation. Schools on probation would not be able to compete for post season play, but they would could as a Division I-A member for other schools' scheduling purposes.
3. In 2005, schools on probation (hopefully) get their noses above the 15,000 mark. If they do, probation is over. If not... that's it. Time to call the Gateway and see if it needs new blood. Any school in this situation will not see it's football team play in the MAC in 2006.

.

I agree with the aforementioned, but I would like to add how a conference exemption 75% rule could play out.

Let's say nothing happens to attendance at current schools by 2005, the last chance butts in seats year. And the conference as it stands right now has 9 members making 15k, allowing for 12 to stay in the MAC for the 75% exemption. The MAC will have to meet to decide who stays and who goes.

Akron has been in the MAC 10 years without a championship in Football or Men's basketball. They have an off campus football stadium and poor attendance in basketball. Sharing a media market with long standing MAC member KSU. Akron will punch its ticket to the Horizon league.

EMU has been in the MAC 25 years and still struggles in Football and Basketball attendance. In the early 1980's the MAC actually voted EMU out of the league, but EMU filed some lawsuits and the MAC backed down. They do have a nice basketball facility, and a good media market, but more popular schools like CMU, WMU, and Toledo in the region can cover it. EMU will punch its ticket to the Horizon league.


I think the MAC will always be good for at least 9 schools over the 15k mark as long as UCF and Marshall stay in the fold. And UCF and Marshall probably will stay in the fold because there is nowhere else for them to go. If anyone is going to CUSA at this point its probably Temple who is under disscussions with CUSA right now. Temple has just signed a deal to play in the eagles new stadium which should help attendance, plus they bring the TV market and basketball team. The AD at Temple acknowledges that CUSA is trying to decide if they want to be an all sports, or continue as a split basketball/football conference, but Temple may be the good basketball canidate with football to keep all parties satisfied.

KC

This is such craziness. Listen, it's the same thing every off-season. Sure, the upcoming attendence requirements change the scope a bit, but mostly it's the same old song. It always comes out sounding like "I wish there were no MAC teams in NE Ohio." You ever notice who leads this brigade? Check the affiliations of the posters. No offense to any individuals, but it's always the MUr, BG, and OU folks. It seems they are so obsessed with keeping up appearences. Like if KSU and Akron were gone, then the rest of country would look at the MAC differently. You never hear the BSU fans irate about Kent or Akron's competitiveness? Then again, they are very few here. But even the W,C,EMU's of the world are pretty silent on the topic. Heck, maybe it's because Akron's the capital of West Virginia, but the Marshall folks seem to really have taken to both U of A and KSU.


As for fooball competitiveness as a standard for conference affiliation (which some folks seem to be doing here), very few of these schools (or their fans) have much of a leg to stand on. BG was terrible a few years ago. OU is still terrible. MUr is conistantly a tough, top-notch program, though I do remember some recent losses to both KSU and Akron.

Hey, if neither of the NE OHio schools make the attendence cut, fine. But, it won't be because they are not capable of playing D-1A ball.


Paging ysuindy, did you see this......


"I don't want to insult the Gateway by suggesting any MAC team would automatically win the league title. But I do think even some of our worst programs would be in the hunt right away there. Football would be
fun again, and the crowds could start to return."
[QUOTE]

I don't think Northern Illinois had much fun with Western Illinois this year. And, if I'm not mistaken, I do believe Marshall needed a goal line stand to beat a Tressel-less, non-playoff YSU team in 2001.

Kit-Cat Wrote:Akron has been in the MAC 10 years without a championship in Football or Men's basketball. They have an off campus football stadium and poor attendance in basketball. Sharing a media market with long standing MAC member KSU. Akron will punch its ticket to the Horizon league.

EMU has been in the MAC 25 years and still struggles in Football and Basketball attendance. In the early 1980's the MAC actually voted EMU out of the league, but EMU filed some lawsuits and the MAC backed down. They do have a nice basketball facility, and a good media market, but more popular schools like CMU, WMU, and Toledo in the region can cover it. EMU will punch its ticket to the Horizon league.

Pure drivel.

Very selective reasoning. Dismiss Akron because they have not won a championship...but then let's change that criteria when addressing EMU because they have won championships in basketball and football, therefore their attendance (in both basketball and football) is a problem. Bull!!!

Over the past several home games, with a couple of exceptions, EMU's bball attendance has been over 4k...larger than capacity at some MAC gyms.

EMU NEVER filed lawsuits in the 1980s. There were talks but nothing was filed. EMU then made the attendance requirements by selling 17k in season tix and averaging nearly 20k per game.

HuronDave Wrote:EMU NEVER filed lawsuits in the 1980s. There were talks but nothing was filed. EMU then made the attendance requirements by selling 17k in season tix and averaging nearly 20k per game.

Why don't you try explaining it to the Huskie fans?

<a href='http://www.teamyates.com/cgi-bin/webbbs/configniu.pl?read=15481' target='_blank'>http://www.teamyates.com/cgi-bin/webbbs/co...u.pl?read=15481</a>

Kit-Cat Wrote:

HuronDave Wrote:EMU NEVER filed lawsuits in the 1980s. There were talks but nothing was filed. EMU then made the attendance requirements by selling 17k in season tix and averaging nearly 20k per game.

Why don't you try explaining it to the Huskie fans?

<a href='http://www.teamyates.com/cgi-bin/webbbs/configniu.pl?read=15481' target='_blank'>http://www.teamyates.com/cgi-bin/webbbs/co...u.pl?read=15481</a>

Well, I don't care who posted it where. Misinformation is misinformation and the facts should be checked before it's disseminated. (Besides, wasn't it NIU that ran to the Big West Conference after ditching the MAC and then came crawling back with their tail between their legs seeking readmittance? Great loyalty. Yet, EMU has remained loyal to the MAC and in return we deal with this garbage.)

Look, I have no illusions about what EMU needs to do in football. It's pretty simple really: Get our friggin' act together. I still think it can be done. If we have a deadline to get it done by and we fail, then we have no one else to blame. But that time has not arrived, nor do I believe, will it arrive.

I also fall back to what I said before. It's almost laughable when folks post about "if we could only drop this team or these teams" as every conference could argue to lop off a school or two, but then again, don't those schools also serve to fatten the records of the schools at the top? :mad:

Be gone with your selfs and decrease the surplus population.

Quote:mostly it's the same old song. It always comes out sounding like "I wish there were no MAC teams in NE Ohio." You ever notice who leads this brigade? Check the affiliations of the posters. No offense to any individuals, but it's always the MUr, BG, and OU folks.

I think you are reading my posts wrong.

The fact that I *think* Kent State and Akron will fail doesn't mean I *wish* they would.

Two years ago, people were pointing to Bowling Green as conference dead weight. And it isn't like Bowling Green can breathe easy about where it stands right now. So, look, I've been on the other side of it.

Quote:but the Marshall folks seem to really have taken to both U of A and KSU.

Brother, if there is ever a lynch mob to run Kent State and Akron out of this conference, you'll find Marshall fans at the front of the line with pitchforks.

Seriously. Check out a Herd forum some times. They *hate* playing Akron and Kent State. They figure it's a waste of time. And, yes, I know Akron beat the Herd last year. They still think it's a waste of time.

Quote:As for fooball competitiveness as a standard for conference affiliation (which some folks seem to be doing here),

Again, I'd like to repeat. I hope everyone in this conference can get their acts together so we can move forward as one.

But I will say this: I'm not going to cry as hard over some schools losing I-A status as I will others.

That's the truth. It may hurt. But it's the truth.

I care *very* much about Bowling Green fielding a I-A program. It would hurt badly if that ever changed. I don't wish that on anybody.

In fact, to me, this whole notion of attendance as a measure of a football program is stupid. The NCAA should never have split Division I into A and AA. It's stupid. If a team can play, let 'em play.

But I didn't make up these rules. We are stuck with them.

And if they catch a school like Kent State, I'm *not* going to cry as hard as if they catch a school like Miami.

I don't think the rules will catch Miami. But if they do, it would be tragic.

Miami can play. The Tim Rose era aside, Miami has *always* been able to play. Miami proves, year after year, it belongs on the field with the very best college football has to offer. To put that at risk because of television money -- and that's what this has always come down to -- is tragic.

I just don't feel the same sense of tragedy when it comes to schools like Kent State, Akron, or Eastern Michigan. They have damned near a century of MAC football between them and just one two titles to show for it all.

I don't think they should be run out of the league. We have a lot of tradition together. Kent State is our sister school. I attended a class at Eastern Michigan once. And I think the Rubber Bowl is cool.

(I'm probably the only one, I know).

But that doesn't mean I'm going to shed many tears if these schools can't keep up. And that feeling is probably coming through. I'm not going to apologize for it.

People who read things I wrote two years ago will think I'm being a total hypocrite, too. I'm not.

If Bowling Green ever loses Division I-A, it *will* be a tragedy. The fact is, Bowling Green's tradition is far closer to what Miami has done over the decades than it is the likes of Kent State or Eastern Michigan. A neutral survey of the facts will bear that out. The Falcons have a winning record against every team in this league save Miami. They have a five game winning streak against BCS-schools. To think they could be run out of the division because a series of freak Saturday thunderstorms is just tragic.

Quote:Hey, if neither of the NE OHio schools make the attendence cut, fine. But, it won't be because they are not capable of playing D-1A ball.

They haven't shown it very often.

Quote:I don't think Northern Illinois had much fun with Western Illinois this year. And, if I'm not mistaken, I do believe Marshall needed a goal line stand to beat a Tressel-less, non-playoff YSU team in 2001.

I think just about any MAC school would win more games than it would lose in Division I-AA. I don't think that's a controversial statement.



<!--EDIT|RochesterFalcon|Feb 26 2003, 08:40 AM-->

RochesterFalcon Wrote:And I think the Rubber Bowl is cool.

(I'm probably the only one, I know).

No, you're not. Other than the obstructed view from the light posts, that place is great. Not to mention, there are always plenty of seats to move to if you get one of the bad ones.

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
:eek: football myopia :eek:
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Plenty of seats to move to. :D