(10-10-2017 09:43 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(10-10-2017 05:39 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  

(10-10-2017 04:09 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(10-10-2017 02:16 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(10-10-2017 01:53 PM)miko33 Wrote:  Can you name them?

Lenin
Stalin
Mao
Pol Pot
Mussolini
Slobodon Milosevic

While it's debatable how much each of these leaders were truly atheist (Stalin studied to be a priest, Pol Pot discussed karma like he was a Buddhist, etc), even with the point conceded that all of these guys were true blue atheists, there is at least a reasonable chance to estimate the amount of murder they committed.

Contrast that with the thousands of years of killing in the name of religion...I think the numbers would not be in favor of religion.

The only reason why Christians and Muslims did not kill more people during the middle ages is simple: they lacked the technology that the people in your list had access to. That is why this is such a fallacious argument. If person A had 5 million people killed while person B had 10 million deaths on his/her hands...it does not mean that person B is twice as evil as person A.

Here's an interesting article -- from HuffPo, no less.

Is Religion the Cause of Most Wars?

Quote:In their recently published book, “Encyclopedia of Wars,” authors Charles Phillips and Alan Axelrod document the history of recorded warfare, and from their list of 1763 wars only 123 have been classified to involve a religious cause, accounting for less than 7 percent of all wars and less than 2 percent of all people killed in warfare. While, for example, it is estimated that approximately one to three million people were tragically killed in the Crusades, and perhaps 3,000 in the Inquisition, nearly 35 million soldiers and civilians died in the senseless, and secular, slaughter of World War 1 alone.

Given this, religious war account for less than 2% of all people killed in warfare, logic demands that more than 98% were killed for reasons other than religion.



'What Every Person Should Know About War'

Quote:Estimates for the total number killed in wars throughout all of human history range from 150 million to 1 billion.

Going with some math here...

Low end: 150,000,000 deaths
Caused by Religious wars: <2% = 3,000,000

High end: 1,000,000,000
Caused by Religious wars: <2% = 20,000,000

So, based on the information from the two links above, wars caused by religion have claimed anywhere from 3 million to 20 million lives.

Mao was responsible for the death of an estimated 40 million to 65 million alone.

So, in the worst-case scenario, religious wars have been responsible for up to 20 million deaths throughout history. This pales to one mass extermination in the 20th century alone.

Regarding wars fought in the name of religion, you brought documentation to show that I was off the mark regarding that statement. Well done, because I learned a little bit more about history. The number of wars for truly secular reasons as a percentage of total number of wars is higher than I would have thought.

Regarding the evils of Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot, they surely did these in the name of communism. And regardless of their starting point in life, they appeared to be atheists at the time. But would you classify communism as a movement to promote atheism as its dominant feature? I would say no. The primary driver for communism was to enact a new economic system tied to a government to - in theory - create a workers paradise.

The original point I was going for was to state that at the end of the day, most atheists, christians, muslims, etc are very similar over all when it comes to the capacity of good or evil. In your last response, you cited the author's comments about WWI being a senseless secular war. I agree that it surely was. But what is also interesting about WWI is that most of the nations at war had an established state religion during that time period - which would objectively call them Christian Nations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_religion#Europe

Interestingly enough, a lot of the nations who fought in the war gave up their state religions around 1918.

Even when you look at the documentation you provided - 93% of wars fought were for secular reasons - that too would prove that it doesn't matter what religion you are or aren't. People are people, and that transcends religion.

Yes, but what you imply is that Christians (or Jews or Muslims) are disqualified from fighting wars? If the Crusaders were in fact trying to take back land taken from them by Muslims who were trying to "kill or convert", I see that as no vice. Likewise, Andrew Jackson drove the Indians out to the West (trail of tears) and it WAS shameful. But did he do it in the name of Christ? Or did he do it for economic reasons totally disconnected from religion? I really don't know - I'm asking the question. At any rate, I know anyone following the principles and teachings of Christ would not have exterminated a populace they were "invading". They would have tried to convert but not kill.