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OT: Does App St miss FCS?
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HerdZoned Online
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Post: #41
RE: OT: Does App St miss FCS?
(07-12-2017 03:05 PM)H.U.S.T.L.E. Wrote:  Ask them again in 10 years and see if they have the same answer.

From someone who has been in the same situation that Appy is in I can answer that question very easily. The answer is "Hell No, we would never trade our time in IA to go back to IAA."

Marshall will be entering its 21st season in IA moving up after the 1996 season. I nor have I ever heard anyone say they miss going to Cullowhee NC (Western Carolina), Greenville SC (Furman), Charleston SC (The Cit), Lexington VA (VMI), Johnson City TN (ETSU) or Chattanooga TN (UTC). And playing in front of 5-7 thousand people, maybe a little more if they are winning. I mean it took The Cit being #9 in the country and Marshall being #1 in the country to have the largest crowd at Johnson Hagood Stadium in 1992 at 23,025.

The truth is if both Appy and GA Southern would have had the proper personal in place they should have been able to move up in 2001-2005. Unfortunately GA Southern didn't have a president with the forward thinking to be IA and he had a puppet as an AD that went along with everything. And I don't think the Appy admin thought that they could actually do it. After the 2004 season Jerry Moore was skating on thin ice, he was coming off of 2 lack luster seasons of not making the playoffs and from what Ive heard his job was on the line in 2005, when he then rolled off 3 national titles. That is when the ball started to really roll that they needed to be IA.

Everyone at Marshall knew the school would eventually go IA when the new Marshall Stadium, now Joan C Edwards Stadium was approved in 1988. They just didn't know how long it would take.
07-13-2017 02:11 PM
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BleedingPurple Offline
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Post: #42
RE: OT: Does App St miss FCS?
(07-13-2017 08:44 AM)BDKJMU Wrote:  
(07-12-2017 10:31 PM)BleedingPurple Wrote:  
(07-12-2017 09:38 PM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  I was picking up SCD Jr from football camp today at Furman Univ.

Interesting conversation took place between myself and the entire coaching staff , except HC and OC ( Cronik) former JMU staff guy.

They all asked me, "when are y'all (JMU) moving to FBS? Even fellow FCS opponents are scratching their heads at our "leadership."

Frankly, I think a lot of FCS folk would like to see us and NDSU gone.

And it would be easier for JMU to move up than NDSU, who moved up from Div 2 in 04'. I don't hunk they can expand their sub 19k capacity Fargodome, so would have to build a new stadium/dome...

That's something I hadn't given any thought to. I took a moment to look up that they began using it in '92 and it's owned by the city rather than the university. Basically the university's part in the deal was the ground it sits on and a team to use it. That certainly presents some major hurdles for them in trying to get another facility before the life expectancy has past. With this obstacle in their path, they may be FCS for a few more years unless they make the move realizing they will have serious demand with little supply for a number of years. Though, they are looking at ways to expand it to roughly 25K seating for football.
07-13-2017 03:09 PM
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2Buck Offline
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Post: #43
RE: OT: Does App St miss FCS?
(07-13-2017 03:09 PM)BleedingPurple Wrote:  
(07-13-2017 08:44 AM)BDKJMU Wrote:  
(07-12-2017 10:31 PM)BleedingPurple Wrote:  
(07-12-2017 09:38 PM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  I was picking up SCD Jr from football camp today at Furman Univ.

Interesting conversation took place between myself and the entire coaching staff , except HC and OC ( Cronik) former JMU staff guy.

They all asked me, "when are y'all (JMU) moving to FBS? Even fellow FCS opponents are scratching their heads at our "leadership."

Frankly, I think a lot of FCS folk would like to see us and NDSU gone.

And it would be easier for JMU to move up than NDSU, who moved up from Div 2 in 04'. I don't hunk they can expand their sub 19k capacity Fargodome, so would have to build a new stadium/dome...

That's something I hadn't given any thought to. I took a moment to look up that they began using it in '92 and it's owned by the city rather than the university. Basically the university's part in the deal was the ground it sits on and a team to use it. That certainly presents some major hurdles for them in trying to get another facility before the life expectancy has past. With this obstacle in their path, they may be FCS for a few more years unless they make the move realizing they will have serious demand with little supply for a number of years. Though, they are looking at ways to expand it to roughly 25K seating for football.

Another big difference is fan base potential. I'm not sure how many more fans NDST would get in FBS unless they started pulling off some Top 25 seasons. No doubt they could get another 5k-10k attending games but with the success they've had over the past 6 years and no nearby FBS competitors, I imagine they've pretty much flushed out all the Walmart fans they're going to get. JMU on the other hand has the untapped alumni base within a 2-3 hour drive to get up to the 40k-50k range with some success. Think of how many Va Tech fans pass by Harrisonburg from the DC area having to drive another 2 hours to attend games.

Now think if they had to drive back past JMU after suffering another loss to us ...

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07-13-2017 04:02 PM
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AppManDG Offline
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Post: #44
RE: OT: Does App St miss FCS?
I pushed for a move back to 1A/ FBS since we were kicked down in 1982. The folks I know think it was the best thing that has ever happened to App. You never hear the SoCon mentioned any more and most couldn't tell you who won it last year. There was a lot of brainwashing done by the Borkowski/Laney administration. Thei8r main fear factor points were we would have to cut sports, which we haven't. Would have to raise student fees excessively, hasn't happened. Most importantly would have to sacrifice academics in order to attract the talent to play FBS. Just the opposite has been true. 2016 class ave GPA was 3.53 & 2017 was 3.47. Jerry Moore pushed anti-moveup rhetoric out of selfish reasons of wanting to keep his job. When he was shown the door it split fan base. It was a rocky start and a lot of "I told you so's" were being tossed around. However, since half way through the '15 season we're 28-5 with 3 coming to National Runner up Clemson, # 9 Tennessee (in OT) & #25 Miami. These days the naysayers are nowhere to be found. Without question it's the best thing we've ever done.

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(This post was last modified: 07-13-2017 07:56 PM by AppManDG.)
07-13-2017 07:46 PM
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BleedingPurple Offline
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Post: #45
RE: OT: Does App St miss FCS?
(07-13-2017 07:46 PM)AppManDG Wrote:  I pushed for a move back to 1A/ FBS since we were kicked down in 1982. The folks I know think it was the best thing that has ever happened to App. You never hear the SoCon mentioned any more and most couldn't tell you who won it last year. There was a lot of brainwashing done by the Borkowski/Laney administration. Thei8r main fear factor points were we would have to cut sports, which we haven't. Would have to raise student fees excessively, hasn't happened. Most importantly would have to sacrifice academics in order to attract the talent to play FBS. Just the opposite has been true. 2016 class ave GPA was 3.53 & 2017 was 3.47. Jerry Moore pushed anti-moveup rhetoric out of selfish reasons of wanting to keep his job. When he was shown the door it split fan base. It was a rocky start and a lot of "I told you so's" were being tossed around. However, since half way through the '15 season we're 28-5 with 3 coming to National Runner up Clemson, # 9 Tennessee (in OT) & #25 Miami. These days the naysayers are nowhere to be found. Without question it's the best thing we've ever done.

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But, have you been successful?
07-13-2017 08:17 PM
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H.U.S.T.L.E. Offline
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Post: #46
RE: OT: Does App St miss FCS?
Interesting that my comment got so much attention in this thread. I'll expound a bit on my original point...

While App State has certainly achieved success in its short time in FBS, I just wonder what the measuring stick for success is going to be in 10 years? Maybe in that time the landscape will dramatically shift in G5 football, but with the current trajectory of FBS football I have serious doubts about the viability of G5 football. The elites of college football are outpacing the rest at an alarming clip.

This doesn't just affect G5 schools either. I don't post here a ton, but schools listed that I root for in my profile should give some hint as to my affiliation. I am a VT grad who married a JMU alum, and given that we live in the DMV we made the decision to buy season tickets to JMU. It's more affordable, a closer drive, and fulfills our fix for seeing live football during the fall. But while I openly root for JMU, Tech will always be #1 for me. In this new economy of college football, I think even a school like VT is going to have a hard time breaking through the proverbial glass ceiling. There's a route there, but it's a much narrower one and fraught with many potholes on the way to becoming one of the elites of college football, or more realistically, sniffing a CFP slot.

Now, if it's tough for a school like VT (an ACC member who has been to a national title game, won multiple ACC championships and been to BCS bowls - but never in the CFP era) to get to the mountaintop, it's going to be much harder for G5 schools.

That's the existential question here. Is App State going to be content in 10 years if the same obstacles still exist? I don't know. Maybe so, but I would think that Sun Belt championships will move the needle less & less over the course of the next decade, as will the bowl tie-ins the Sun Belt can muster. At least they have some fun bowl locales in their lineup at the moment (New Orleans, Nassau, Orlando top the list I'd say, while Frisco, Montgomery and Mobile seem a little less attractive).

But what is the ultimate goal? At this moment in the landscape, it would seem that the best-case scenario is the type of season we just saw from Western Michigan - undefeated in the regular season, a conference title game win and a spot in a New Year's Six bowl game.

Is that glimmer enough to satisfy G5 fanbases long-term if it may only happen once in a program's history? I don't know the answer to that. Maybe some here can help answer that. People like to bring up, "We could be the next Boise State," but they fail to acknowledge how different things are now than even ten years ago. I think it's infinitely harder to replicate Boise State's success in today's landscape.

Maybe I'm wrong, and I'll end up eating crow with regards to App State. I would happily do so. I just fear that the road to high-end success in FBS is so slim for G5 schools that there's a point where a fanbase wonders if there's a diminishing return to the enterprise.
07-14-2017 08:23 AM
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Post: #47
RE: OT: Does App St miss FCS?
(07-14-2017 08:23 AM)H.U.S.T.L.E. Wrote:  Interesting that my comment got so much attention in this thread. I'll expound a bit on my original point...

While App State has certainly achieved success in its short time in FBS, I just wonder what the measuring stick for success is going to be in 10 years? Maybe in that time the landscape will dramatically shift in G5 football, but with the current trajectory of FBS football I have serious doubts about the viability of G5 football. The elites of college football are outpacing the rest at an alarming clip.

This doesn't just affect G5 schools either. I don't post here a ton, but schools listed that I root for in my profile should give some hint as to my affiliation. I am a VT grad who married a JMU alum, and given that we live in the DMV we made the decision to buy season tickets to JMU. It's more affordable, a closer drive, and fulfills our fix for seeing live football during the fall. But while I openly root for JMU, Tech will always be #1 for me. In this new economy of college football, I think even a school like VT is going to have a hard time breaking through the proverbial glass ceiling. There's a route there, but it's a much narrower one and fraught with many potholes on the way to becoming one of the elites of college football, or more realistically, sniffing a CFP slot.

Now, if it's tough for a school like VT (an ACC member who has been to a national title game, won multiple ACC championships and been to BCS bowls - but never in the CFP era) to get to the mountaintop, it's going to be much harder for G5 schools.

That's the existential question here. Is App State going to be content in 10 years if the same obstacles still exist? I don't know. Maybe so, but I would think that Sun Belt championships will move the needle less & less over the course of the next decade, as will the bowl tie-ins the Sun Belt can muster. At least they have some fun bowl locales in their lineup at the moment (New Orleans, Nassau, Orlando top the list I'd say, while Frisco, Montgomery and Mobile seem a little less attractive).

But what is the ultimate goal? At this moment in the landscape, it would seem that the best-case scenario is the type of season we just saw from Western Michigan - undefeated in the regular season, a conference title game win and a spot in a New Year's Six bowl game.

Is that glimmer enough to satisfy G5 fanbases long-term if it may only happen once in a program's history? I don't know the answer to that. Maybe some here can help answer that. People like to bring up, "We could be the next Boise State," but they fail to acknowledge how different things are now than even ten years ago. I think it's infinitely harder to replicate Boise State's success in today's landscape.

Maybe I'm wrong, and I'll end up eating crow with regards to App State. I would happily do so. I just fear that the road to high-end success in FBS is so slim for G5 schools that there's a point where a fanbase wonders if there's a diminishing return to the enterprise.

Your concerns are valid. Instead of chasing the unobtainable, perhaps it makes sense to align with schools whose interests and means are on a similar level.

That being said, it will be a hard sell to the FBS schools who hang their hat on being a so called "big boy".
07-14-2017 08:55 AM
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Post: #48
RE: OT: Does App St miss FCS?
(07-14-2017 08:23 AM)H.U.S.T.L.E. Wrote:  Interesting that my comment got so much attention in this thread. I'll expound a bit on my original point...

While App State has certainly achieved success in its short time in FBS, I just wonder what the measuring stick for success is going to be in 10 years? Maybe in that time the landscape will dramatically shift in G5 football, but with the current trajectory of FBS football I have serious doubts about the viability of G5 football. The elites of college football are outpacing the rest at an alarming clip.

This doesn't just affect G5 schools either. I don't post here a ton, but schools listed that I root for in my profile should give some hint as to my affiliation. I am a VT grad who married a JMU alum, and given that we live in the DMV we made the decision to buy season tickets to JMU. It's more affordable, a closer drive, and fulfills our fix for seeing live football during the fall. But while I openly root for JMU, Tech will always be #1 for me. In this new economy of college football, I think even a school like VT is going to have a hard time breaking through the proverbial glass ceiling. There's a route there, but it's a much narrower one and fraught with many potholes on the way to becoming one of the elites of college football, or more realistically, sniffing a CFP slot.

Now, if it's tough for a school like VT (an ACC member who has been to a national title game, won multiple ACC championships and been to BCS bowls - but never in the CFP era) to get to the mountaintop, it's going to be much harder for G5 schools.

That's the existential question here. Is App State going to be content in 10 years if the same obstacles still exist? I don't know. Maybe so, but I would think that Sun Belt championships will move the needle less & less over the course of the next decade, as will the bowl tie-ins the Sun Belt can muster. At least they have some fun bowl locales in their lineup at the moment (New Orleans, Nassau, Orlando top the list I'd say, while Frisco, Montgomery and Mobile seem a little less attractive).

But what is the ultimate goal? At this moment in the landscape, it would seem that the best-case scenario is the type of season we just saw from Western Michigan - undefeated in the regular season, a conference title game win and a spot in a New Year's Six bowl game.

Is that glimmer enough to satisfy G5 fanbases long-term if it may only happen once in a program's history? I don't know the answer to that. Maybe some here can help answer that. People like to bring up, "We could be the next Boise State," but they fail to acknowledge how different things are now than even ten years ago. I think it's infinitely harder to replicate Boise State's success in today's landscape.

Maybe I'm wrong, and I'll end up eating crow with regards to App State. I would happily do so. I just fear that the road to high-end success in FBS is so slim for G5 schools that there's a point where a fanbase wonders if there's a diminishing return to the enterprise.

what he said. so many good points in there.

and to add another point re: bowl games. the number of P5 vs G5 matchups in bowls continue to dwindle. I believe you can count on one hand now.

are G5 members going to be happy making a bowl, only to play another G5 member year after year?

used to be, a G5 type school (before the G5 became the G5) could look forward to making a bowl game and matching up against an SEC or Pac10 school that they otherwise might never get a game against, certainly not a home game. A neutral site matchup like that was appealing.

they just don't happen much anymore. the P5 wants a closed society. Keep all the money, all the attention, all the accolades. I can't say I blame them. But where does that leave the G5 in 5-10 years?
07-14-2017 09:15 AM
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Post: #49
RE: OT: Does App St miss FCS?
(07-14-2017 09:15 AM)Duke Dawg Wrote:  
(07-14-2017 08:23 AM)H.U.S.T.L.E. Wrote:  Interesting that my comment got so much attention in this thread. I'll expound a bit on my original point...

While App State has certainly achieved success in its short time in FBS, I just wonder what the measuring stick for success is going to be in 10 years? Maybe in that time the landscape will dramatically shift in G5 football, but with the current trajectory of FBS football I have serious doubts about the viability of G5 football. The elites of college football are outpacing the rest at an alarming clip.

This doesn't just affect G5 schools either. I don't post here a ton, but schools listed that I root for in my profile should give some hint as to my affiliation. I am a VT grad who married a JMU alum, and given that we live in the DMV we made the decision to buy season tickets to JMU. It's more affordable, a closer drive, and fulfills our fix for seeing live football during the fall. But while I openly root for JMU, Tech will always be #1 for me. In this new economy of college football, I think even a school like VT is going to have a hard time breaking through the proverbial glass ceiling. There's a route there, but it's a much narrower one and fraught with many potholes on the way to becoming one of the elites of college football, or more realistically, sniffing a CFP slot.

Now, if it's tough for a school like VT (an ACC member who has been to a national title game, won multiple ACC championships and been to BCS bowls - but never in the CFP era) to get to the mountaintop, it's going to be much harder for G5 schools.

That's the existential question here. Is App State going to be content in 10 years if the same obstacles still exist? I don't know. Maybe so, but I would think that Sun Belt championships will move the needle less & less over the course of the next decade, as will the bowl tie-ins the Sun Belt can muster. At least they have some fun bowl locales in their lineup at the moment (New Orleans, Nassau, Orlando top the list I'd say, while Frisco, Montgomery and Mobile seem a little less attractive).

But what is the ultimate goal? At this moment in the landscape, it would seem that the best-case scenario is the type of season we just saw from Western Michigan - undefeated in the regular season, a conference title game win and a spot in a New Year's Six bowl game.

Is that glimmer enough to satisfy G5 fanbases long-term if it may only happen once in a program's history? I don't know the answer to that. Maybe some here can help answer that. People like to bring up, "We could be the next Boise State," but they fail to acknowledge how different things are now than even ten years ago. I think it's infinitely harder to replicate Boise State's success in today's landscape.

Maybe I'm wrong, and I'll end up eating crow with regards to App State. I would happily do so. I just fear that the road to high-end success in FBS is so slim for G5 schools that there's a point where a fanbase wonders if there's a diminishing return to the enterprise.

what he said. so many good points in there.

and to add another point re: bowl games. the number of P5 vs G5 matchups in bowls continue to dwindle. I believe you can count on one hand now.

are G5 members going to be happy making a bowl, only to play another G5 member year after year?

used to be, a G5 type school (before the G5 became the G5) could look forward to making a bowl game and matching up against an SEC or Pac10 school that they otherwise might never get a game against, certainly not a home game. A neutral site matchup like that was appealing.

they just don't happen much anymore. the P5 wants a closed society. Keep all the money, all the attention, all the accolades. I can't say I blame them. But where does that leave the G5 in 5-10 years?

Isn't there value in VT playing an ACC schedule every year over the next 10 years, even if all they do is win an occasional comference championship and play another G5 in a bowl game with little to no chance of playing in the Natuonal Championship?

They are hosting Clemson this year. Seems like a pretty good game, no?

Why has the regular season suddenly lost meaning?
07-14-2017 09:20 AM
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Post: #50
RE: OT: Does App St miss FCS?
H.U.S.T.L.E. makes some great points that really crystallize the fears of many of our "leaders". Thanks for making such a good post filled with real concepts based on reality. Seriously, thank you.

But JMUETC brings it right back to the real value of FBS for JMU, the REGULAR SEASON. We're fixated with post-season because that's our measure of success now as an FCS team. Those home games versus natural rivals (Marshall/App/ODU) are what I want more than anything. I can only attend two games this year & it's our two cupcakes in September. That sucks. I'll treasure the playoffs while we're FCS, but post-season success for JMU is not the prize for moving to FBS.
07-14-2017 09:34 AM
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