Who makes the most sense?

If 34: San Diego, St. Louis
If 36: Portland, San Antonio

I picked against Orlando because 4 teams in Florida seemed like too many. I picked against Sacramento because 5 teams in California seemed like too many. Texas could and should have a third. The final pick was tough. I’m against international expansion. Portland seemed like a good fit.

Presuming no conference switches:

AFC
East: Baltimore, Buffalo, Jacksonville, Miami, New England, New York
Central: Cincinnati, Cleveland, Houston, Indianapolis, Pittsburgh, Tennessee
West: Denver, Kansas City, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, San Antonio, San Diego

NFC
East: Atlanta, Dallas, New Orleans, New York, Philadelphia, Washington
Central: Carolina, Chicago, Detroit, Green Bay, Minnesota, Tampa Bay
West: Arizona, Los Angeles, Portland, San Francisco, Seattle, St. Louis

Isn’t Orlando too close to Tampa?

(07-18-2024 12:00 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  Isn’t Orlando too close to Tampa?

I want to say that they are about 100 mi apart both they are both big, distinct markets.

(07-19-2024 07:27 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(07-18-2024 12:00 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  Isn’t Orlando too close to Tampa?

I want to say that they are about 100 mi apart both they are both big, distinct markets.

If Orlando came into the AFC, it really wouldn't interfere with Tampa Bay that much as it is a NFC market. Miami and Jacksonville would be the ones who would lose ground in the Orlando market.

(07-21-2024 01:47 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  If Orlando came into the AFC, it really wouldn't interfere with Tampa Bay that much as it is a NFC market. Miami and Jacksonville would be the ones who would lose ground in the Orlando market.

I think you'll need to elaborate on that.

(07-21-2024 09:35 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(07-21-2024 01:47 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  If Orlando came into the AFC, it really wouldn't interfere with Tampa Bay that much as it is a NFC market. Miami and Jacksonville would be the ones who would lose ground in the Orlando market.

I think you'll need to elaborate on that.

NFL fans are conference fans first?

I don't see Orlando as a viable market. California has 3 teams. Texas has 2 teams. Florida with 4 teams? Maybe the Jaguars would relocate to Orlando. That may be more palatable that Toronto or London.

(07-19-2024 07:27 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(07-18-2024 12:00 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  Isn’t Orlando too close to Tampa?

I want to say that they are about 100 mi apart both they are both big, distinct markets.

That’s a 2 hour drive! Too close IMO.

San Diego and St. Louis.

The rub is teams have come and gone at both locales.

I'm not sure how an attempt at going into Canada can work considering the CFL. I wouldn't disbelieve them looking at Mexico. I don't think they can get the logistics worked out to do a real European team for a whole season's worth of games.

(07-22-2024 11:47 AM)BePcr07 Wrote:  I don't see Orlando as a viable market. California has 3 teams. Texas has 2 teams. Florida with 4 teams? Maybe the Jaguars would relocate to Orlando. That may be more palatable that Toronto or London.

This feels more viable than a brand new team

Also, to those mentioning how close Tampa & Orlando are, I-4 has entered the chat. People will endure that hell for work & theme parks, but another NFL team? I highly doubt it.

Austin would be a better market than San Antonio. There's more disposable income there than SA, which already has a pro sports team to suck up much of that income. And it'd be much more viable for San Antonio's wealthy to drive 60-70 miles to watch Austin's team than the other way around.

At this point, I think the US market is saturated.

You could try to grow the league in Europe, but the travel is just too much to make it viable.

Toronto, Montreal, Mexico City, or Monterrey.

That's all I can think would potentially work within reasonable travel distance.

I don't see Mexico. I just don't see that being a good mesh. Canada has been there with a Big 4 team since nearly the beginning. There was even an NBA team in Toronto decades before the Raptors.

If I had to expand into Canada and I also expanded in the US, I'd go with:
- Canada: Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, and Calgary.
- US: San Diego, St. Louis, Portland, San Antonio.

The NFL could move to a 2x4X5 model and presuming no one switches conferences:

AFC
East: Baltimore, Buffalo, Montreal, New England, New York
North: Cincinnati, Cleveland, Indianapolis, Kansas City, Pittsburgh
South: Houston, Jacksonville, Miami, San Antonio, Tennessee
West: Denver, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, San Diego, Vancouver

NFC
East: Arizona, Dallas, New York, Philadelphia, Washington
North: Chicago, Detroit, Green Bay, Minnesota, Toronto
South: Atlanta, Carolina, New Orleans, St. Louis, Tampa Bay
West: Calgary, Los Angeles, Portland, San Francisco, Seattle

Reasoning --
> Geographically, the divisions are aligned with the teams that best fit that regional description.
> I put the Arizona Cardinals in the NFC East because of their history with those teams from 1970 until 2001.

(07-22-2024 11:25 AM)Porcine Wrote:  

(07-21-2024 09:35 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(07-21-2024 01:47 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  If Orlando came into the AFC, it really wouldn't interfere with Tampa Bay that much as it is a NFC market. Miami and Jacksonville would be the ones who would lose ground in the Orlando market.

I think you'll need to elaborate on that.

NFL fans are conference fans first?

No, the TV contracts are predominantly by conference. It wasn't as strict as it was years ago, but Fox airs games in which the NFC team is the visitor, and CBS airs games in which the AFC team is the visitor. There have been more exceptions in the past few years as Amazon has entered the fray.

So in this case AFC games air on WKMG in Orlando and WTSP in Tampa. Right now that would be Jacksonville or Miami. NFC games air on WOFL in Orlando and WTVT in Tampa. They obviously get the Buccaneers. Putting an AFC team in Orlando would displace the Dolphins or Jaguars from WKMG, unless of course they were playing the Orlando team, or if the Orlando team was hosting a NFC opponent, in which case they would be on WOFL. This is also a case of Tampa Bay/Orlando playing at 1:00 PM and the other playing at 4:25 PM could be useful.

Some thoughts

St. Louis as a market is not growing as fast as the markets on the south. Plus St Louis has failed to keep 2 NFL franchises. They just need to sit on the sidelines for a while.

If the Bears end up building a new stadium in Arlington Heights, this could eventually open the door to a 2nd NFL franchise moving to Chicago playing either in the old Soldier Field stadium and maybe a new lakefront domed stadium around the year 2050.

A new NFL franchise in London could work but require the NFL to re-align getting rid of NFC and AFC conferences.

Sacramento for a long time was not a real option, but now that the Raiders have vacated Oakland, Sacramento can now be looked at as a serious option.

I agree that Orlando is too close to Tampa and Jacksonville. It only works if the Jaguars or The Bucs leave first.

If San Diego gets a team, they should get the option to take over the Chargers franchise team records and official history. Then essentially put a new expansion team in LA that is owned by the old Chargers owner. Kind of like when the Browns moved to Baltimore and be came the Ravens.

(08-05-2024 06:10 PM)goofus Wrote:  Some thoughts

St. Louis as a market is not growing as fast as the markets on the south. Plus St Louis has failed to keep 2 NFL franchises. They just need to sit on the sidelines for a while.

If the Bears end up building a new stadium in Arlington Heights, this could eventually open the door to a 2nd NFL franchise moving to Chicago playing either in the old Soldier Field stadium and maybe a new lakefront domed stadium around the year 2050.

A new NFL franchise in London could work but require the NFL to re-align getting rid of NFC and AFC conferences.

Sacramento for a long time was not a real option, but now that the Raiders have vacated Oakland, Sacramento can now be looked at as a serious option.

I agree that Orlando is too close to Tampa and Jacksonville. It only works if the Jaguars or The Bucs leave first.

If San Diego gets a team, they should get the option to take over the Chargers franchise team records and official history. Then essentially put a new expansion team in LA that is owned by the old Chargers owner. Kind of like when the Browns moved to Baltimore and be came the Ravens.

St. Louis loved the Rams but there was a loophole in their lease agreement that Kronke took advantage of so he could move to LA. I agree about market growth.

EDIT: AAMOF, St. Louis took the NFL to court over the move of the Rams. They love NFL football in St. Louis, make no mistake.

(08-05-2024 06:10 PM)goofus Wrote:  Some thoughts

St. Louis as a market is not growing as fast as the markets on the south. Plus St Louis has failed to keep 2 NFL franchises. They just need to sit on the sidelines for a while.

If the Bears end up building a new stadium in Arlington Heights, this could eventually open the door to a 2nd NFL franchise moving to Chicago playing either in the old Soldier Field stadium and maybe a new lakefront domed stadium around the year 2050.

A new NFL franchise in London could work but require the NFL to re-align getting rid of NFC and AFC conferences.

Sacramento for a long time was not a real option, but now that the Raiders have vacated Oakland, Sacramento can now be looked at as a serious option.

I agree that Orlando is too close to Tampa and Jacksonville. It only works if the Jaguars or The Bucs leave first.

If San Diego gets a team, they should get the option to take over the Chargers franchise team records and official history. Then essentially put a new expansion team in LA that is owned by the old Chargers owner. Kind of like when the Browns moved to Baltimore and be came the Ravens.

Not sure on St. Louis so I'll leave that alone.

I'm a little surprised with the age of most Chicago franchises that baseball is the only sport with more than 1 team.

No need to get rid of the AFC/NFC with teams in Europe or elsewhere. If naming is the issue then "World Champs" needs to be scaled back in all the major leagues.

I never considered Sacramento to be much of a pro sports league. I see the NBA Kings as a transient franchise like the Athletics which doesn't help the City in my mind.

Florida crowding makes sense.

The agreements between the Browns/Ravens and Cleveland, Thunder and Seattle, Utah NHL and Phoenix, and whoever else was reached before the teams left.

Think of it this way...

There are 32 NFL teams spread across mostly the top 32 markets in the country. Based on the billions that are already coming into the league through media revenue, are there any markets in the US which would add to that pot?

I mean, there are probably a handful of markets that could support an NFL team, but would any of them add to that media payouts? I really don't see it. That's just based on how much money the NFL is already making which is incredible.

You could stick a 2nd team in Chicago...a team in NorCal with Sacramento...a team in St. Louis...or a team in Salt Lake City. You could maybe add a team in one of those markets to balance out the numbers, but I think you have to go international at this point.

(08-05-2024 06:10 PM)goofus Wrote:  A new NFL franchise in London could work but require the NFL to re-align getting rid of NFC and AFC conferences.

If the NFL goes to Europe, this could play out one of several ways:

(1) Five teams in Europe, three teams in North America; each conference would still have four divisions.

(2) Four teams in Europe, four teams in North America, each conference has five divisions.

(3) Eight teams in Europe, four in the AFC and four in the NFC, each conference has five divisions.

The playoffs will be the bigger issue with European expansion, as the European teams are severely boxed in on acceptable TV time slots. The other issue with five divisions in the conference is that division champions would no longer be guaranteed either a home game or a first round bye.

Going with five teams in Europe would require 1-2 teams to switch conferences, even with the NFL just stops at 37 teams and doesn't add any North American expansion teams.

AFC West - Las Vegas, LA Chargers, Denver, Houston, Kansas City
AFC Central - Indianapolis, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Tennessee, (vacant)
AFC East - Miami, Jacksonville, Baltimore, NY Jets, New England
AFC Europe - London 1, London 2, Frankfort, Munich, Barcelona

NFC West - Seattle, LA Rams, San Francisco, Arizona, (vacant)
NFC North - Minnesota, Green Bay, Chicago, Detroit, Cincinnati
NFC South - Atlanta, New Orleans, Tampa Bay, Carolina, (vacant)
NFC East - Philadelphia, NY Giants, Buffalo, Washington, Dallas