(04-10-2024 12:46 PM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote: Section 13-3603
https://www.azleg.gov/ars/13/03603.htm
A person who provides, supplies or administers to a pregnant woman, or procures such woman to take any medicine, drugs or substance, or uses or employs any instrument or other means whatever, with intent thereby to procure the miscarriage of such woman, unless it is necessary to save her life, shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for not less than two years nor more than five years.
Actually, this means the law isn't as DRACONIAN as I thought everyone was claiming it as being:
Yes, i know about the general three criteria people have that have had people allowing for an abortion.
Life, Rape, Incest (now there are those who say Abortion is abortion - don't allow it all, but this isn't aimed at you).
Did you forget what time you were talking about? the 1860s!
Looks like at least one of those was covered for in the 1860's AZ law. Let's remember this was 1860's west.. Where outside of some real villains., Brothels were real.. Rape was not a real consideration (not to say it didnt happen some, but nowhere as portrayed as being a common thing).
In fact, Rapists weren't exactly welcome in most of the west, regardless of what stories you heard. Destroy a lady's birth-carrying chances? Where are the next generations of ranchers and soldiers going to come from?
Incest (between cousins) was first "banned' by law back as far as 1858 (so i'd wager not as prevalent as most people though it to be) as was already under fire for years prior. So honestly, i don't 'think legislatures even considered it.
So referring to this as draconian? It's not as draconian as you guys are making out...
For instance:
Did you know that in the days of the wild west, whenever a woman was called in to question NOT because she was giving birth out of wedlock and being "punished' for being a "Whore"? It's because they wanted to make sure the father paid into taking care of the kid to be part of the town/church/etc or which ever company got the kid down the road.
Why? Because the wild west needed settlers, they needed men and women who could pick up a pistol, rifle, whatever, and know how to use it. They need cowboys to maintain and watch their cattle...
Whether it was to fight off Mexicans, Indians, Unionists, coyotes, bears, mountain lions, whatever...
Abortion was "unwelcome" ALL throughout the west..
now move to today: Oh abortion is illegal,: but..
I'll only allow abortion if the lift of the mother is in question.
Or some are abortion is okay in the instance of "life and rape..."
Some are abortion in the case of 'life of the mother, rape and incest".
And unfortunately the 1860's law didn't cover rape and incest, so some people call it Draconian? They weren't even CONSIDERED at the time as being lawful in itself..
So just maybe you guys start jumping all over each other for "fighting a losing fight" or "because i have principles and you don't". Maybe you need to consider why they chose to apporve the law as is.. and if you don't think it's a good law, ASK them to rewrite it to include whatever clauses would make it a "slow acceptablet to hte public law".
Who's more draconian??? I'd say neither honestly...
Now as for the second half of this thread.. where y'all are ready to turn on each other...
Owl, I respect your thoughts around here a lot.. but this one, youre missing (ast least what I'm reading into Shere's n Tb4e's argument...
So choose when you want to fight for your beliefs, but if you don't pick now? When? When are you going to have the public on your side, if you don't speak up and shout out how WRONG something like abortion is? YOu keep saying, you can't win this fight now.. then when?
Look at society.. Pornography for kids? Transgenders who are actually sexual deviants, but are trying to find a way to be declared normal? Pedophiles? Hollyowood? Epstein? Illegal immigrants killing innocents? Black youths who think bieing gangsters is where it's at? People just stealing in stores in broad daylight?
It gets worse and worse every day..
So if you're not going to fight for it now.. when?
So right now Shere and TB4e have a lot more of respect from me in heir admission of their position in this argument and why they think it should be fought _NOW_, because at least they're trying to get you to fight for it.... (now whether or not they succeed and get you to do so, at least they're TRYING, not just sitting back in the corrner and letting whatever happens without at least trying to rattle some chains.)
So when? When is good neough to fight? That's what they want to know.. whats' going to be good enough to bring Owl out of the shadows and inot the abortion argument? When it's 40/60 likely to fight for?
When do you think you'll get that number? I'm curious to know when you're ready to fight for your beliefs on this one? 40/60? 50/50? 30/70? Never?
I'd like to know too.. cause you just keep letting society erode and erode, and there's never going to be that number to get back to, which implies this is not even a stance you wanted to fight over in the first place and are happy just letting murders of innocent pre-borns happen?