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Big East planning massive expansion?
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Bogg Offline
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Post: #101
RE: Big East planning massive expansion?
(03-27-2024 01:35 PM)ccd494 Wrote:  
(03-27-2024 12:21 PM)Bogg Wrote:  
(03-27-2024 10:42 AM)stever20 Wrote:  not really sure that Gonzaga needs to do much schedule wise. They had 5 Q1 games OOC this year, another 2 Q2, and had 2 others in Yale and UCLA that were Q3 but less than 10 spots away from Q2. Their OOC SOS was 20.

Gonzaga's home slate this year was Lewis & Clark State, Yale, Eastern Oregon, Cal State Bakersfield, Arkansas Pine Bluff, Mississippi Valley State, Jackson State, and San Diego State. They don't have much success bringing high-level games to campus for the students, and having a scheduling agreement in their back pocket could partially address that.

As compares to the UConn home non-conference schedule of Northern Arizona, Stonehill, Mississippi Valley State, Manhattan, New Hampshire, and Arkansas Pine Bluff? Even counting the games in Hartford as "campus"?

UConn plays a full Big East schedule. They're bringing in a minimum of 9 high-major opponents a year.
03-27-2024 03:22 PM
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Sactowndog Offline
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Post: #102
RE: Big East planning massive expansion?
(03-25-2024 01:57 PM)darkdragon99 Wrote:  The Big East could be welcoming back some old schools if and when the ACC falls apart so they'd be stupid to go beyond 12 right now.

Or some new ones. If Duke gets left behind do they consider dropping football and joining the Big East. As a small private they are a perfect fit.
03-30-2024 05:31 PM
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tf8693 Offline
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Post: #103
RE: Big East planning massive expansion?
(03-26-2024 12:07 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  
(03-25-2024 01:26 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  In theory, adding just one team - thereby moving to 12 teams and eliminating the round robin - statistically not only improves the odds of getting another bid into the NCAAT, but should also slightly elevate the top bids' seed(s) as well. Even if FOX was only going to pay the minimum for any addition, the potential value in additional tournament bids (and resulting improved seeds) as well as expanded sessions in the BET would pay for itself.

Having said all that, nothing (at least on the surface) has changed regarding Gonzaga. They are way too far away, and they don't need the Big East in order to compete for NCAAT appearances or to compete for national championships. Saint Louis has actually taken a step back, IMO, in their candidacy than several years ago (despite financial investments, market and long-term potential). Dayton is still in close proximity to Xavier, and because they were not added in 2013, says that there is not unanimous support to add them right now.

If the Big East is expanding now, is it because they only got three bids this year? That just seems like a short-sighted response to a one-year blip (with nine other years of strong steady data).

I don't know how wealthy Gonzaga is, but do they have the $$'s to do a travel reimbursement like Hawaii does? If not, I agree with you. If they do, who knows?

With Hawaii, I think the bigger issue, at least in football, is that any team who plays a road game at Hawaii is allowed to schedule a 13th game. I don't expect Gonzaga would receive a similar concession if they were to join the Big East.

And lest we forget, without football, the Big East doesn't receive anywhere near as attractive a media rights deal as the other Power 5 conferences. As intriguing as it sounds, Gonzaga to the Big East is a non-starter for logistical reasons.
03-31-2024 07:20 AM
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Michael in Raleigh Offline
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Post: #104
RE: Big East planning massive expansion?
(03-31-2024 07:20 AM)tf8693 Wrote:  
(03-26-2024 12:07 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  
(03-25-2024 01:26 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  In theory, adding just one team - thereby moving to 12 teams and eliminating the round robin - statistically not only improves the odds of getting another bid into the NCAAT, but should also slightly elevate the top bids' seed(s) as well. Even if FOX was only going to pay the minimum for any addition, the potential value in additional tournament bids (and resulting improved seeds) as well as expanded sessions in the BET would pay for itself.

Having said all that, nothing (at least on the surface) has changed regarding Gonzaga. They are way too far away, and they don't need the Big East in order to compete for NCAAT appearances or to compete for national championships. Saint Louis has actually taken a step back, IMO, in their candidacy than several years ago (despite financial investments, market and long-term potential). Dayton is still in close proximity to Xavier, and because they were not added in 2013, says that there is not unanimous support to add them right now.

If the Big East is expanding now, is it because they only got three bids this year? That just seems like a short-sighted response to a one-year blip (with nine other years of strong steady data).

I don't know how wealthy Gonzaga is, but do they have the $$'s to do a travel reimbursement like Hawaii does? If not, I agree with you. If they do, who knows?

With Hawaii, I think the bigger issue, at least in football, is that any team who plays a road game at Hawaii is allowed to schedule a 13th game. I don't expect Gonzaga would receive a similar concession if they were to join the Big East.

And lest we forget, without football, the Big East doesn't receive anywhere near as attractive a media rights deal as the other Power 5 conferences. As intriguing as it sounds, Gonzaga to the Big East is a non-starter for logistical reasons.

In terms of exposure, the Big East is about on par with the Big Ten in basketball, with coverage on Big Fox and CBS in addition to FS1. In terms of finances, the Big East is in negotiations for a new media rights deal. They’re in a position of strength compared to the one they signed in late 2012 when the Catholic 7 broke off from the old charter, when they kind of had to take whatever they could get. Plus, with inflation, they’re in for a big pay increase, not to mention their performance has been very much within the middle of the pack among other power conferences over the course of the new charter. Finally, basketball covers only about 20% of a power conference’s media rights deal, so the portion going to basketball for, say, Illinois would be in the same ballpark as a purely basketball Big East school.
03-31-2024 07:35 AM
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tf8693 Offline
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Post: #105
RE: Big East planning massive expansion?
(03-31-2024 07:35 AM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  
(03-31-2024 07:20 AM)tf8693 Wrote:  
(03-26-2024 12:07 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  
(03-25-2024 01:26 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  In theory, adding just one team - thereby moving to 12 teams and eliminating the round robin - statistically not only improves the odds of getting another bid into the NCAAT, but should also slightly elevate the top bids' seed(s) as well. Even if FOX was only going to pay the minimum for any addition, the potential value in additional tournament bids (and resulting improved seeds) as well as expanded sessions in the BET would pay for itself.

Having said all that, nothing (at least on the surface) has changed regarding Gonzaga. They are way too far away, and they don't need the Big East in order to compete for NCAAT appearances or to compete for national championships. Saint Louis has actually taken a step back, IMO, in their candidacy than several years ago (despite financial investments, market and long-term potential). Dayton is still in close proximity to Xavier, and because they were not added in 2013, says that there is not unanimous support to add them right now.

If the Big East is expanding now, is it because they only got three bids this year? That just seems like a short-sighted response to a one-year blip (with nine other years of strong steady data).

I don't know how wealthy Gonzaga is, but do they have the $$'s to do a travel reimbursement like Hawaii does? If not, I agree with you. If they do, who knows?

With Hawaii, I think the bigger issue, at least in football, is that any team who plays a road game at Hawaii is allowed to schedule a 13th game. I don't expect Gonzaga would receive a similar concession if they were to join the Big East.

And lest we forget, without football, the Big East doesn't receive anywhere near as attractive a media rights deal as the other Power 5 conferences. As intriguing as it sounds, Gonzaga to the Big East is a non-starter for logistical reasons.

In terms of exposure, the Big East is about on par with the Big Ten in basketball, with coverage on Big Fox and CBS in addition to FS1. In terms of finances, the Big East is in negotiations for a new media rights deal. They’re in a position of strength compared to the one they signed in late 2012 when the Catholic 7 broke off from the old charter, when they kind of had to take whatever they could get. Plus, with inflation, they’re in for a big pay increase, not to mention their performance has been very much within the middle of the pack among other power conferences over the course of the new charter. Finally, basketball covers only about 20% of a power conference’s media rights deal, so the portion going to basketball for, say, Illinois would be in the same ballpark as a purely basketball Big East school.

New Big Ten media deal pays about $65-80 million/member/year, so the share attributable to basketball will be about $13-16 million/member/year. Current Big East deal pays about $4.5 million/member/year. The Big East has produced three national champions, with a fourth quite possibly on the way. So it makes sense that they will receive a considerable pay raise. But conservatively, they would need a 200% pay raise to keep pace with the B1G. That seems unlikely . Two takeaways from these numbers:

1. The payout for football dwarves the payout for basketball (although a small portion of the total payout is attributable to other sports).
2. Basketball appears to be more valuable to the networks as a tag along to football than as a stand-alone top dog sport.
(This post was last modified: 03-31-2024 10:02 AM by tf8693.)
03-31-2024 09:56 AM
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shizzle787 Offline
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Post: #106
RE: Big East planning massive expansion?
If the NCAA tournament expands to 76, the Big East should add Gonzaga and keep the round robin (22 games).
03-31-2024 09:59 AM
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BruceMcF Offline
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Post: #107
RE: Big East planning massive expansion?
(03-31-2024 09:56 AM)tf8693 Wrote:  ... 2. Basketball appears to be more valuable to the networks as a tag along to football than as a stand-alone top dog sport. ...

Quite ... basketball brings a "shoulder" to the slump in interest during the football off-season, cushioning the drop off through to the end of the conference tournaments, and given the shortness of the college football regular season, that is especially critical to the networks other than ESPN.
03-31-2024 10:22 AM
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Post: #108
RE: Big East planning massive expansion?
(03-31-2024 09:59 AM)shizzle787 Wrote:  If the NCAA tournament expands to 76, the Big East should add Gonzaga and keep the round robin (22 games).

sorry but the round robin should not be a sacred cow. You could make the case that they should go back to 18. ACC commish already was talking about going back to 18. 20 conference games costs teams bids.
03-31-2024 10:38 AM
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shizzle787 Offline
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Post: #109
RE: Big East planning massive expansion?
(03-31-2024 10:38 AM)stever20 Wrote:  
(03-31-2024 09:59 AM)shizzle787 Wrote:  If the NCAA tournament expands to 76, the Big East should add Gonzaga and keep the round robin (22 games).

sorry but the round robin should not be a sacred cow. You could make the case that they should go back to 18. ACC commish already was talking about going back to 18. 20 conference games costs teams bids.

I doubt the ACC will go back to 18 games with 18 teams.
03-31-2024 10:40 AM
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Section 200 Offline
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Post: #110
RE: Big East planning massive expansion?
(03-31-2024 10:38 AM)stever20 Wrote:  
(03-31-2024 09:59 AM)shizzle787 Wrote:  If the NCAA tournament expands to 76, the Big East should add Gonzaga and keep the round robin (22 games).

sorry but the round robin should not be a sacred cow. You could make the case that they should go back to 18. ACC commish already was talking about going back to 18. 20 conference games costs teams bids.

The committee just needs to be told to put at least 50% of the Big Ten, SEC, ACC, Big 12 and Big East in the tournament. Yes you add losses when you play 20 game conference schedule, but TV wants 20 games as the conference games get higher ratings than buy games. In this case the NCAA needs to adapt to keep the big conference happy.
03-31-2024 10:44 AM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #111
RE: Big East planning massive expansion?
(03-31-2024 10:40 AM)shizzle787 Wrote:  
(03-31-2024 10:38 AM)stever20 Wrote:  
(03-31-2024 09:59 AM)shizzle787 Wrote:  If the NCAA tournament expands to 76, the Big East should add Gonzaga and keep the round robin (22 games).

sorry but the round robin should not be a sacred cow. You could make the case that they should go back to 18. ACC commish already was talking about going back to 18. 20 conference games costs teams bids.

I doubt the ACC will go back to 18 games with 18 teams.

It’s in the cards. I wouldn’t mind an organized rotation where we don’t play everyone every year and have more teams to double round robin. Somebody had a great breakdown that altered mine:

UVa, VaTech, Wake, Carolina, Duke, State

Louisville, Clemson, GaTech, FSU, Miami, SMU

BC, SU, Pitt, ND, Cal, Stanford

Annual double round, rotate the other eight accordingly. Bottom of each “division” misses the conference tournament. It would ensure some sort of conference rivalry is maintained.
(This post was last modified: 03-31-2024 10:52 AM by esayem.)
03-31-2024 10:51 AM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #112
RE: Big East planning massive expansion?
(03-31-2024 09:59 AM)shizzle787 Wrote:  If the NCAA tournament expands to 76, the Big East should add Gonzaga and keep the round robin (22 games).

That could be a long term albatross. Life after Few and nobody wants to go to Spokane.
03-31-2024 10:52 AM
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Section 200 Offline
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Post: #113
RE: Big East planning massive expansion?
(03-31-2024 10:51 AM)esayem Wrote:  
(03-31-2024 10:40 AM)shizzle787 Wrote:  
(03-31-2024 10:38 AM)stever20 Wrote:  
(03-31-2024 09:59 AM)shizzle787 Wrote:  If the NCAA tournament expands to 76, the Big East should add Gonzaga and keep the round robin (22 games).

sorry but the round robin should not be a sacred cow. You could make the case that they should go back to 18. ACC commish already was talking about going back to 18. 20 conference games costs teams bids.

I doubt the ACC will go back to 18 games with 18 teams.

It’s in the cards. I wouldn’t mind an organized rotation where we don’t play everyone every year and have more teams to double round robin. Somebody had a great breakdown that altered mine:

UVa, VaTech, Wake, Carolina, Duke, State

Louisville, Clemson, GaTech, FSU, Miami, SMU

BC, SU, Pitt, ND, Cal, Stanford

Annual double round, rotate the other eight accordingly. Bottom of each “division” misses the conference tournament. It would endure some sort of conference rivalry is maintained.

I think the chance of something like this happening is 0. Play 4 teams twice and some not at all? What's the point of the conference then?

Also funny that you stick Cal & Stanford with BC, Syracuse & Pitt after all that BS about how the "institutional" fit with Tobacco Road and those schools. Even you, ACC #1 apologist, doesn't want to play Cal or Stanford! Louisville's group is even worse - that looks like AAC basketball!
03-31-2024 10:55 AM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #114
RE: Big East planning massive expansion?
(03-31-2024 10:55 AM)Section 200 Wrote:  
(03-31-2024 10:51 AM)esayem Wrote:  
(03-31-2024 10:40 AM)shizzle787 Wrote:  
(03-31-2024 10:38 AM)stever20 Wrote:  
(03-31-2024 09:59 AM)shizzle787 Wrote:  If the NCAA tournament expands to 76, the Big East should add Gonzaga and keep the round robin (22 games).

sorry but the round robin should not be a sacred cow. You could make the case that they should go back to 18. ACC commish already was talking about going back to 18. 20 conference games costs teams bids.

I doubt the ACC will go back to 18 games with 18 teams.

It’s in the cards. I wouldn’t mind an organized rotation where we don’t play everyone every year and have more teams to double round robin. Somebody had a great breakdown that altered mine:

UVa, VaTech, Wake, Carolina, Duke, State

Louisville, Clemson, GaTech, FSU, Miami, SMU

BC, SU, Pitt, ND, Cal, Stanford

Annual double round, rotate the other eight accordingly. Bottom of each “division” misses the conference tournament. It would ensure some sort of conference rivalry is maintained.

I think the chance of something like this happening is 0. Play 4 teams twice and some not at all? What's the point of the conference then?

It increases games with rivals. In the SoCon teams didn’t play one another and that’s what the conference tournament was for. It’s not a new or revolutionary concept. Maybe do some historical research?


Quote:Also funny that you stick Cal & Stanford with BC, Syracuse & Pitt after all that BS about how the "institutional" fit with Tobacco Road and those schools. Even you, ACC #1 apologist, doesn't want to play Cal or Stanford! Louisville's group is even worse - that looks like AAC basketball!

I think ND would enjoy that division.

Louisville, GaTech, and FSU all played in the Metro together, with Cincinnati lol

Shouldn’t you know that?
(This post was last modified: 03-31-2024 12:09 PM by esayem.)
03-31-2024 12:08 PM
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Michael in Raleigh Offline
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Post: #115
RE: Big East planning massive expansion?
(03-31-2024 09:56 AM)tf8693 Wrote:  
(03-31-2024 07:35 AM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  
(03-31-2024 07:20 AM)tf8693 Wrote:  
(03-26-2024 12:07 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  
(03-25-2024 01:26 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  In theory, adding just one team - thereby moving to 12 teams and eliminating the round robin - statistically not only improves the odds of getting another bid into the NCAAT, but should also slightly elevate the top bids' seed(s) as well. Even if FOX was only going to pay the minimum for any addition, the potential value in additional tournament bids (and resulting improved seeds) as well as expanded sessions in the BET would pay for itself.

Having said all that, nothing (at least on the surface) has changed regarding Gonzaga. They are way too far away, and they don't need the Big East in order to compete for NCAAT appearances or to compete for national championships. Saint Louis has actually taken a step back, IMO, in their candidacy than several years ago (despite financial investments, market and long-term potential). Dayton is still in close proximity to Xavier, and because they were not added in 2013, says that there is not unanimous support to add them right now.

If the Big East is expanding now, is it because they only got three bids this year? That just seems like a short-sighted response to a one-year blip (with nine other years of strong steady data).

I don't know how wealthy Gonzaga is, but do they have the $$'s to do a travel reimbursement like Hawaii does? If not, I agree with you. If they do, who knows?

With Hawaii, I think the bigger issue, at least in football, is that any team who plays a road game at Hawaii is allowed to schedule a 13th game. I don't expect Gonzaga would receive a similar concession if they were to join the Big East.

And lest we forget, without football, the Big East doesn't receive anywhere near as attractive a media rights deal as the other Power 5 conferences. As intriguing as it sounds, Gonzaga to the Big East is a non-starter for logistical reasons.

In terms of exposure, the Big East is about on par with the Big Ten in basketball, with coverage on Big Fox and CBS in addition to FS1. In terms of finances, the Big East is in negotiations for a new media rights deal. They’re in a position of strength compared to the one they signed in late 2012 when the Catholic 7 broke off from the old charter, when they kind of had to take whatever they could get. Plus, with inflation, they’re in for a big pay increase, not to mention their performance has been very much within the middle of the pack among other power conferences over the course of the new charter. Finally, basketball covers only about 20% of a power conference’s media rights deal, so the portion going to basketball for, say, Illinois would be in the same ballpark as a purely basketball Big East school.

New Big Ten media deal pays about $65-80 million/member/year, so the share attributable to basketball will be about $13-16 million/member/year. Current Big East deal pays about $4.5 million/member/year. The Big East has produced three national champions, with a fourth quite possibly on the way. So it makes sense that they will receive a considerable pay raise. But conservatively, they would need a 200% pay raise to keep pace with the B1G. That seems unlikely . Two takeaways from these numbers:

1. The payout for football dwarves the payout for basketball (although a small portion of the total payout is attributable to other sports).
2. Basketball appears to be more valuable to the networks as a tag along to football than as a stand-alone top dog sport.

Fair points. Perhaps I should have made the comparison not to Illinois/B1G, but to a generic ACC or Big 12 school.
03-31-2024 12:21 PM
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Post: #116
RE: Big East planning massive expansion?
If the ACC loses schools to the B1G, SEC, and XII, the Big East may be able to acquire some schools. These schools could play independent football with a scheduling agreement.

B1G (18) + Miami, Virginia
SEC (16) + Clemson, Florida St, North Carolina, Virginia Tech
XII (16) + Georgia Tech, Louisville, North Carolina St, Pittsburgh

Big East (11) + Boston College, Duke, Notre Dame, Syracuse, Wake Forest
03-31-2024 01:44 PM
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Post: #117
RE: Big East planning massive expansion?
(03-27-2024 03:22 PM)Bogg Wrote:  
(03-27-2024 01:35 PM)ccd494 Wrote:  
(03-27-2024 12:21 PM)Bogg Wrote:  
(03-27-2024 10:42 AM)stever20 Wrote:  not really sure that Gonzaga needs to do much schedule wise. They had 5 Q1 games OOC this year, another 2 Q2, and had 2 others in Yale and UCLA that were Q3 but less than 10 spots away from Q2. Their OOC SOS was 20.

Gonzaga's home slate this year was Lewis & Clark State, Yale, Eastern Oregon, Cal State Bakersfield, Arkansas Pine Bluff, Mississippi Valley State, Jackson State, and San Diego State. They don't have much success bringing high-level games to campus for the students, and having a scheduling agreement in their back pocket could partially address that.

As compares to the UConn home non-conference schedule of Northern Arizona, Stonehill, Mississippi Valley State, Manhattan, New Hampshire, and Arkansas Pine Bluff? Even counting the games in Hartford as "campus"?

UConn plays a full Big East schedule. They're bringing in a minimum of 9 high-major opponents a year.

And this season, they played Kansas on the road.
03-31-2024 05:12 PM
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