(02-06-2024 02:27 PM)4x4hokies Wrote:  

(02-06-2024 01:41 PM)b2b Wrote:  Is the current G5 not the minor leagues anyway? Nobody with half a brain thinks the G5 is REALLY competing at the "highest level". The problem for the G5 is that there's very little market for them either way.

Exactly. It already is viewed as the minor leagues. By any metrics there is a separation.

The comparisons to the FCS playoffs are absurd. Because like the divide between the Power schools and the others there is a similar divide between the G5 and FCS.

So is it better to watch Liberty get throttled by a top 5 team and watch SMU lose to an average BC team on a baseball field? Or might it make for a more compelling match up to have SMU and Liberty playing for their own crown?

I think we can have both. A spot for the G5 champ is fine. A playoff for the rest of them would be a huge improvement over the various Toilet Bowls.

(02-06-2024 02:46 PM)b2b Wrote:  

(02-06-2024 02:27 PM)4x4hokies Wrote:  

(02-06-2024 01:41 PM)b2b Wrote:  Is the current G5 not the minor leagues anyway? Nobody with half a brain thinks the G5 is REALLY competing at the "highest level". The problem for the G5 is that there's very little market for them either way.

Exactly. It already is viewed as the minor leagues. By any metrics there is a separation.

The comparisons to the FCS playoffs are absurd. Because like the divide between the Power schools and the others there is a similar divide between the G5 and FCS.

So is it better to watch Liberty get throttled by a top 5 team and watch SMU lose to an average BC team on a baseball field? Or might it make for a more compelling match up to have SMU and Liberty playing for their own crown?

I think we can have both. A spot for the G5 champ is fine. A playoff for the rest of them would be a huge improvement over the various Toilet Bowls.

I can see both your arguments and they both have merit. I will say this, coming from a fan of a school that has won multiple football National Championships and competed in a real football playoff... the excitement and fanfare is so much better than a ****** little bowl game that means nothing. Want a reason to keep the prima-donnas from sitting out of your meaningless bowl game? Give them a shot at a real playoff and a National Title.

(02-06-2024 02:46 PM)b2b Wrote:  

(02-06-2024 02:27 PM)4x4hokies Wrote:  

(02-06-2024 01:41 PM)b2b Wrote:  Is the current G5 not the minor leagues anyway? Nobody with half a brain thinks the G5 is REALLY competing at the "highest level". The problem for the G5 is that there's very little market for them either way.

Exactly. It already is viewed as the minor leagues. By any metrics there is a separation.

The comparisons to the FCS playoffs are absurd. Because like the divide between the Power schools and the others there is a similar divide between the G5 and FCS.

So is it better to watch Liberty get throttled by a top 5 team and watch SMU lose to an average BC team on a baseball field? Or might it make for a more compelling match up to have SMU and Liberty playing for their own crown?

I think we can have both. A spot for the G5 champ is fine. A playoff for the rest of them would be a huge improvement over the various Toilet Bowls.

The issue is that if you arbitrarily pick the best on paper and remove them it is no longer a playoff. It is an invitational and it would lose most meaning. Then it's no better than a lower tier bowl series.

If a breakaway happens so be it but how many casuals who think the G5 needs their own National Championship are actually going to tune in and pay any attention to G5 playoffs and championship? Probably very few. Rice vs Texas St. in a random bowl had 2.8M viewers compared to the FCS National Championship that had 1.04M. Only 4 G5 vs G5 and only 1 P5 vs P5 bowl games had less than 1M viewers.

Source:
CFB Ratings 2023

(02-06-2024 03:03 PM)4x4hokies Wrote:  

(02-06-2024 02:46 PM)b2b Wrote:  

(02-06-2024 02:27 PM)4x4hokies Wrote:  

(02-06-2024 01:41 PM)b2b Wrote:  Is the current G5 not the minor leagues anyway? Nobody with half a brain thinks the G5 is REALLY competing at the "highest level". The problem for the G5 is that there's very little market for them either way.

Exactly. It already is viewed as the minor leagues. By any metrics there is a separation.

The comparisons to the FCS playoffs are absurd. Because like the divide between the Power schools and the others there is a similar divide between the G5 and FCS.

So is it better to watch Liberty get throttled by a top 5 team and watch SMU lose to an average BC team on a baseball field? Or might it make for a more compelling match up to have SMU and Liberty playing for their own crown?

I think we can have both. A spot for the G5 champ is fine. A playoff for the rest of them would be a huge improvement over the various Toilet Bowls.

The issue is that if you arbitrarily pick the best on paper and remove them it is no longer a playoff. It is an invitational and it would lose most meaning. Then it's no better than a lower tier bowl series.

Is this not also true about arbitrarily removing like 65 of the "best on paper" teams?

(02-06-2024 03:03 PM)Troy_Fan_15 Wrote:  If a breakaway happens so be it but how many casuals who think the G5 needs their own National Championship are actually going to tune in and pay any attention to G5 playoffs and championship? Probably very few. Rice vs Texas St. in a random bowl had 2.8M viewers compared to the FCS National Championship that had 1.04M. Only 4 G5 vs G5 and only 1 P5 vs P5 bowl games had less than 1M viewers.

Source:
CFB Ratings 2023

That's like claiming that since the FCS playoffs barely get any viewers it proves that there should be no cfb playoff. We'll just stick with Bowls.

Let's completely ignore the competitive level and size of fan bases and funding involved.

We shouldn't have an FCS playoff because the D3 tried it and nobody watched...

(02-06-2024 03:09 PM)4x4hokies Wrote:  

(02-06-2024 03:03 PM)Troy_Fan_15 Wrote:  If a breakaway happens so be it but how many casuals who think the G5 needs their own National Championship are actually going to tune in and pay any attention to G5 playoffs and championship? Probably very few. Rice vs Texas St. in a random bowl had 2.8M viewers compared to the FCS National Championship that had 1.04M. Only 4 G5 vs G5 and only 1 P5 vs P5 bowl games had less than 1M viewers.

Source:
CFB Ratings 2023

That's like claiming that since the FCS playoffs barely get any viewers it proves that there should be no cfb playoff. We'll just stick with Bowls.

Let's completely ignore the competitive level and size of fan bases and funding involved.

We shouldn't have an FCS playoff because the D3 tried it and nobody watched...

(02-06-2024 03:03 PM)4x4hokies Wrote:  

(02-06-2024 02:46 PM)b2b Wrote:  

(02-06-2024 02:27 PM)4x4hokies Wrote:  

(02-06-2024 01:41 PM)b2b Wrote:  Is the current G5 not the minor leagues anyway? Nobody with half a brain thinks the G5 is REALLY competing at the "highest level". The problem for the G5 is that there's very little market for them either way.

Exactly. It already is viewed as the minor leagues. By any metrics there is a separation.

The comparisons to the FCS playoffs are absurd. Because like the divide between the Power schools and the others there is a similar divide between the G5 and FCS.

So is it better to watch Liberty get throttled by a top 5 team and watch SMU lose to an average BC team on a baseball field? Or might it make for a more compelling match up to have SMU and Liberty playing for their own crown?

I think we can have both. A spot for the G5 champ is fine. A playoff for the rest of them would be a huge improvement over the various Toilet Bowls.

The issue is that if you arbitrarily pick the best on paper and remove them it is no longer a playoff. It is an invitational and it would lose most meaning. Then it's no better than a lower tier bowl series.

You've basically got an invitational right now at the highest level.

(02-06-2024 10:07 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  

(02-06-2024 09:45 AM)freshtop Wrote:  It feels like we are barreling down the tracks towards the Top of CFB breaking away to self govern. Whether this is just the P2 or if The top 60-70 programs are all included ,time will tell.

My hope is that if football breaks away that the rest of college athletics stay separate. Let basketball, baseball, soccer, hockey, etc. all return to sanity. Let conferences based on geography, performance, peer institutions, etc. form out of the ashes of football going scorched earth.

It would suck to not play in the big leagues for football, but part of me would almost welcome not having football be a boat anchor on conference affiliation.

This is the same arguments that were made during the D1/1AA split, that oh you "smaller" schools can't complete you'll be happier in your own subdivision. How did that work out? The level of give a crap you currently see for FCS football is what you'd see G5 programs drop to once they got sent to new FCS. Zero money, zero TV slots, massively decreased fan support and interests for most. Some would handle it and be okay, but a whole lot of schools would drop football similar to what happened in the early 80's.

I don't wish it to happen but if it's between that and greedy bastards screwing up March Madness then bye Felicia.

For everyone dumping on the FCS, look at the facts. The championship drew 1.04M viewers. That's higher than 5 bowls and in spitting distance of 5 more. Basically a mid-level G5 bowl. I've been to 4 FCS champ games and can verify the 20k seat stadium was packed each time. Compare that to G5 bowls that claim 30k but the cameras never pan across the vast swathes of empty seats.

I think some people are still mad that in 2007 NDSU beat the MAC champion 44-14 but didn't make the FCS playoffs. Top 10 FCS would absolutely be in the running for any G5 conference championship. JMU proved that.

(02-06-2024 03:09 PM)4x4hokies Wrote:  

(02-06-2024 03:03 PM)Troy_Fan_15 Wrote:  If a breakaway happens so be it but how many casuals who think the G5 needs their own National Championship are actually going to tune in and pay any attention to G5 playoffs and championship? Probably very few. Rice vs Texas St. in a random bowl had 2.8M viewers compared to the FCS National Championship that had 1.04M. Only 4 G5 vs G5 and only 1 P5 vs P5 bowl games had less than 1M viewers.

Source:
CFB Ratings 2023

That's like claiming that since the FCS playoffs barely get any viewers it proves that there should be no cfb playoff. We'll just stick with Bowls.

Let's completely ignore the competitive level and size of fan bases and funding involved.

We shouldn't have an FCS playoff because the D3 tried it and nobody watched...

Huh?

No. I'm claiming that I guarantee you Texas St. enjoys winning a bowl game that most see as meaningless and getting the 2M viewers versus winning a Championship that the general public would just shrug their shoulders and decreasing their post-season viewership by 1M. This is the exact reason so many FCS teams have left that system behind to be G5. I'd rather be in the room even if I don't sit at the same table than being put in a completely different room altogether.
.

(02-06-2024 03:30 PM)clunk Wrote:  For everyone dumping on the FCS, look at the facts. The championship drew 1.04M viewers. That's higher than 5 bowls and in spitting distance of 5 more. Basically a mid-level G5 bowl. I've been to 4 FCS champ games and can verify the 20k seat stadium was packed each time. Compare that to G5 bowls that claim 30k but the cameras never pan across the vast swathes of empty seats.

I think some people are still mad that in 2007 NDSU beat the MAC champion 44-14 but didn't make the FCS playoffs. Top 10 FCS would absolutely be in the running for any G5 conference championship. JMU proved that.

To be fair NDSU and SDSU and a few other FCS teams have enough recognition to still pull viewership and that's why some (including myself) wish they could join the G5. I wonder if the national championship was Southern Utah vs Southeast Missouri St. if it would gain the same amount of viewers and fan presence.

(02-06-2024 03:17 PM)b2b Wrote:  

(02-06-2024 03:03 PM)4x4hokies Wrote:  

(02-06-2024 02:46 PM)b2b Wrote:  

(02-06-2024 02:27 PM)4x4hokies Wrote:  

(02-06-2024 01:41 PM)b2b Wrote:  Is the current G5 not the minor leagues anyway? Nobody with half a brain thinks the G5 is REALLY competing at the "highest level". The problem for the G5 is that there's very little market for them either way.

Exactly. It already is viewed as the minor leagues. By any metrics there is a separation.

The comparisons to the FCS playoffs are absurd. Because like the divide between the Power schools and the others there is a similar divide between the G5 and FCS.

So is it better to watch Liberty get throttled by a top 5 team and watch SMU lose to an average BC team on a baseball field? Or might it make for a more compelling match up to have SMU and Liberty playing for their own crown?

I think we can have both. A spot for the G5 champ is fine. A playoff for the rest of them would be a huge improvement over the various Toilet Bowls.

The issue is that if you arbitrarily pick the best on paper and remove them it is no longer a playoff. It is an invitational and it would lose most meaning. Then it's no better than a lower tier bowl series.

You've basically got an invitational right now at the highest level.

I agree. That's the most frustrating part that no one seems to want to fix. There should be a way to win your way into it, polls be damned. People are obsessed with the "best" teams but then claim they can just look at them and decide who are the best.

A hypothetical G5 playoff might look like:
1 Liberty*
2 SMU*
3 Troy*
4 Boise State*

5 JMU
6 Memphis
7 UTSA
8 Air Force
9 Tulane
10 San Jose State
11 App State
12 Miami OH*

Everyone can play their way in by winning their conference. Your conference championship games become more appealing to the casual.viewers because they'll dictate your playoff field.

Whether it be the top 30 or the top 60 breakaway, the next tier would be better suited playing their own playoff.

(02-06-2024 09:53 AM)esayem Wrote:  Football should have been split off in the 70's when they first talked about it. The fact the NCAA has never crowned a national champ tells us all we need to know. The CFP Division should require some sort of buy-in, and strict rules for admission should be followed.

The Rose Bowl was the hold up. If not for the Rose Bowl's insistence on tradition, we would have had a playoff decades ago.

(02-06-2024 01:32 PM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  

(02-06-2024 01:27 PM)4x4hokies Wrote:  

(02-06-2024 01:15 PM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  

(02-06-2024 12:39 PM)GreenBison Wrote:  

(02-06-2024 12:11 PM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  If you are arguing for a G5 playoff in place of bowl slots for the rest of the G5 who doesn't get the real playoff spot then I could buy that as being decent. If you are arguing a G5 playoff would be better than access to the real playoff then absolutely not.

It would have to be a mix of a 12 team playoff and bowl games for the schools that just missed the rankings. But if the P2/4 split and leave the NCAA then we aint getting in their circle jerk of a playoff.

Sure under that scenario it will be time to do all sorts of reorganizing and just trying to cut costs across the board because all money will dry up immediately.

Hokie fan is trying to argue there's some sort of benefit for the G5 to opt out of access to the real playoff and willingly create our own second tier playoff. Unless he's a dumb person he doesn't actually believe there's money and exposure in that, there's none. There's far more money, exposure, and ratings for even the crappiest of bowl games than the FCS playoffs. No one gives a single crap about them.

Maybe you're dumb enough to assume that Boise vs Memphis will draw the same as North Dakota vs Montana. You already admitted that the bowl games do better and that's with them not actually meaning anything. So, yes, there would be far more money going to the G5 if they created a playoff than the token participation in the current system. The only thing holding it back is ego.

North Dakota State can celebrate their championship and not be compared directly against Alabama or Liberty even. It would greatly improve the product to not have it always compared to programs with vastly more resources. Instead of having one or two schools in the top 25 you could have your own top 25.

You'd likely even still get a subsidy from the current playoff. So the reasons for not holding a playoff are not financial, they're emotional.

The "token participation game" would draw more ratings than the entire G5 playoff combined. If this argument held any water you'd have seen decades of ratings and financial benefit to the FCS playoffs when there was no FBS playoff. Point me to any evidence of it, I'll wait the rest of my damn life because it doesn't exist.

This is the same idiot argument for what those that willingly went to 1AA in the 70's would gain from it, and what they gained from it was a ton of programs shutting down football permanently and every single good program that dropped down spending the next 40 years trying to get back up. It would be viewed as the "minor leagues" as a purely second class product that's objectively not on the same level, and you can't point to a single league like that pro, college, anywhere that anyone cares about at all in any meaningful way. No one watches minor league baseball. There's no market for the D league, no one has ever cared about any attempt to make a competitor to the NFL no matter what time of year you put it.

You mean like the AFL? Even the USFL did well until they tried to go toe-to-toe with NFL at the same time.

Interesting thread. Some P5 fans think highly enough of the G5 that they could have a successful playoff of there own. Some G5 fans don't think so by bringing up FCS, who are supposed to be below them. A game will draw double the viewers as a bowl game than the same game if it were a playoff game? Ok. This isn't a scam to split up FBS. We already have P, M, and G doing that.

(02-06-2024 03:38 PM)4x4hokies Wrote:  

(02-06-2024 03:17 PM)b2b Wrote:  

(02-06-2024 03:03 PM)4x4hokies Wrote:  

(02-06-2024 02:46 PM)b2b Wrote:  

(02-06-2024 02:27 PM)4x4hokies Wrote:  Exactly. It already is viewed as the minor leagues. By any metrics there is a separation.

The comparisons to the FCS playoffs are absurd. Because like the divide between the Power schools and the others there is a similar divide between the G5 and FCS.

So is it better to watch Liberty get throttled by a top 5 team and watch SMU lose to an average BC team on a baseball field? Or might it make for a more compelling match up to have SMU and Liberty playing for their own crown?

I think we can have both. A spot for the G5 champ is fine. A playoff for the rest of them would be a huge improvement over the various Toilet Bowls.

The issue is that if you arbitrarily pick the best on paper and remove them it is no longer a playoff. It is an invitational and it would lose most meaning. Then it's no better than a lower tier bowl series.

You've basically got an invitational right now at the highest level.

I agree. That's the most frustrating part that no one seems to want to fix. There should be a way to win your way into it, polls be damned. People are obsessed with the "best" teams but then claim they can just look at them and decide who are the best.

A hypothetical G5 playoff might look like:
1 Liberty*
2 SMU*
3 Troy*
4 Boise State*

5 JMU
6 Memphis
7 UTSA
8 Air Force
9 Tulane
10 San Jose State
11 App State
12 Miami OH*

Everyone can play their way in by winning their conference. Your conference championship games become more appealing to the casual.viewers because they'll dictate your playoff field.

Whether it be the top 30 or the top 60 breakaway, the next tier would be better suited playing their own playoff.

If a breakaway happens then sure, create a playoff. No one is arguing that point.

(02-06-2024 03:09 PM)4x4hokies Wrote:  

(02-06-2024 03:03 PM)Troy_Fan_15 Wrote:  If a breakaway happens so be it but how many casuals who think the G5 needs their own National Championship are actually going to tune in and pay any attention to G5 playoffs and championship? Probably very few. Rice vs Texas St. in a random bowl had 2.8M viewers compared to the FCS National Championship that had 1.04M. Only 4 G5 vs G5 and only 1 P5 vs P5 bowl games had less than 1M viewers.

Source:
CFB Ratings 2023

That's like claiming that since the FCS playoffs barely get any viewers it proves that there should be no cfb playoff. We'll just stick with Bowls.

Let's completely ignore the competitive level and size of fan bases and funding involved.

We shouldn't have an FCS playoff because the D3 tried it and nobody watched...

I agree with this. I'm not sure why some are comparing the current G5 to the existing FCS. If the G5 had its own playoff then it would produce similar views to the existing G5 games that are televised now. And if ESPN owned it, they could put the G5 national championship game on as a lead up to the P2 championship and probably get insane ratings from people tuning in early and watching. It would dwarf any current viewership that the random Bowling Green vs Tulsa bowl game draws.

I am of the opinion that the current college football setup is actually slowly killing Marshalls fanbase. Yes, winning is the main driver in fan development, but winning 9-10 games a year to play Middle TN in the cheese bowl, where half the good players opt out, is not good. There is nothing to draw young people in. Maybe if we had a real shot at consistently playing in playoffs and getting a shot at a national title and we could reverse the trend.

Most Marshall fans disagree with me on that last paragraph, but something needs to change in CFB before long or our fanbase will die off and shrink considerably.

There is nothing wrong with just being who we are. We are not Alabama, Georgia, Ohio State, or Michigan. And there isn't anything wrong with that. I would rather compete for a title with our peers from across the country every year, than hold out for that lottery ticket to the existing CFP. Where it'll probably earn you a 1st round trip every year to the 1 or 2 seeds home field.

I think a split would be good at this point for G5 schools. Especially if something could be worked out to where we would still get a cut of the P2 football playoff money.

(02-06-2024 09:45 AM)freshtop Wrote:  It feels like we are barreling down the tracks towards the Top of CFB breaking away to self govern. Whether this is just the P2 or if The top 60-70 programs are all included ,time will tell.

My hope is that if football breaks away that the rest of college athletics stay separate. Let basketball, baseball, soccer, hockey, etc. all return to sanity. Let conferences based on geography, performance, peer institutions, etc. form out of the ashes of football going scorched earth.

It would suck to not play in the big leagues for football, but part of me would almost welcome not having football be a boat anchor on conference affiliation.

There are some saying all of FBS splitting, and a lot of the schools in FCS are seeing the signs and want to be part of the break away as well. The issue is that football schools are being handtied by the non-football schools.

(02-06-2024 04:59 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(02-06-2024 09:45 AM)freshtop Wrote:  It feels like we are barreling down the tracks towards the Top of CFB breaking away to self govern. Whether this is just the P2 or if The top 60-70 programs are all included ,time will tell.

My hope is that if football breaks away that the rest of college athletics stay separate. Let basketball, baseball, soccer, hockey, etc. all return to sanity. Let conferences based on geography, performance, peer institutions, etc. form out of the ashes of football going scorched earth.

It would suck to not play in the big leagues for football, but part of me would almost welcome not having football be a boat anchor on conference affiliation.

There are some saying all of FBS splitting, and a lot of the schools in FCS are seeing the signs and want to be part of the break away as well. The issue is that football schools are being handtied by the non-football schools.

Boo hoo