I did not know BC did so much behind the scenes with the first BE raid. I got new respect for them.

(01-17-2024 01:08 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(01-17-2024 12:38 PM)Just Joe Wrote:  WVU instead of BC does nothing long term to stabilize the conference.

Penn St wasn’t a decision, they never would’ve left the Big Ten. It’s fantasy.

ACC wanted Texas, who decided they preferred staying in the reworked Bi 12.

The Big 12 would’ve happily taken ND non-football.

ACC would be where it is today with minor differences.

Yep. I think that Swofford did a fantastic job taking the ACC to its current #3 or 3A position. They were always a distant 2nd to the SEC in the SE. You don't need Rankings, TV numbers, or Athletic Budgets though, just look at Stadium Capacity. The ACC has 2 schools with over 70k capacity, while the SEC has 9 (soon to be 11). The next-to-last stadium capacity in the SEC is 61k (with avg attendance at Kentucky 60.5k over the past 2 years btw). Kentucky would in fact be a strong #4 in attendance if they were in the ACC.

Looking at the above data, the ACC was always vulnerable to SEC poaching, and Swofford did a good job of keeping the Conference strong and intact for so long.

Kentucky football is a terrible example.

UK football attendance reporting is something of a running joke even in Lexington. A few years ago a Lexington Herald Leader reporter discovered a discrepancy between what was reported and actual attendance.

“ Kentucky no longer keeps actual attendance figures for home football games after a Herald-Leader report showed that the number of tickets scanned for the Cats’ first six home games was much lower than the announced attendance.”

In some cases discrepancies of over 25K.

https://www.kentucky.com/sports/college/...90994.html

(01-17-2024 04:15 PM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(01-17-2024 12:21 PM)TerpsvilleMayor Wrote:  The ACC was the 2nd best FBS football conference during the 2004-05 season. It started the season with five preseason AP top-25 teams (Clemson, Florida State, Maryland, Miami, Virginia) and ended the season with four ranked teams (Florida State, Miami, Virginia, Virginia Tech). The conference was 2nd in SOS and in win percentage. The realignment decisions made earlier in the decade aimed at bringing football legitimacy to a conference known for its basketball seemed to have paid off.

What if John Swofford and the 11 member schools doubled-down on the football goals? One could argue that the origin story to the situation the ACC finds itself in today began in 2005 when they added Boston College for the Boston tv market.

What if the ACC…

• Added West Virginia from the Big East (2005) - The ACC academics wouldn’t have like this but sometimes you have to hold your nose in business. Small state but their fan base has always been rabid. Existing football rivalries with multiple ACC teams. In 2005, Rich Rod had a 11-win WVU team rolling in the Sugar Bowl. This would have gotten the league to 12 members.
• Added Penn State from the Big Ten (2011) - This move would have made a splash in the CFB landscape. PSU had been looking eastward before joining the Big Ten. Pre-scandal Joe Pa still had sway there to encourage exploration. The Big Ten’s media contract wrapped up in 2010. The timing would have worked. Btw…yes, the scandal broke in November 2011 but PSU likely would have joined by July 1 of this year.
• Added Texas from the Big 12 (2011) - Most of you will likely remember Texas to the ACC sort of almost happened in 2011 because the Big 12 took issue with the Longhorn Network but apparently the ACC did not. LHN was already underperforming before the ACCN launched, so there probably would’ve been any long term issues there. Also, another splashy move in the CFB world that would have eyes on the ACC.
• Does not approve Notre Dame’s application for non-football membership (2013) - The ACC’s position is we’d gladly have you, but we’d require all of you.
  

With 14 football teams and brands like FSU, Miami, VT (w/ Beamer), Clemson (w/ Dabo), Texas, and Penn State, the ACC would have been a solid football conference and would likely have had better media revenue than it had at the time. With more money and more nearby conference mates like PSU, Pitt, and VT, Maryland either thinks much harder about bolting for the B1G when it came calling in 2013 or just flat out says no. Even if Maryland did leave, the ACC could call up Louisville as it did.

So, let’s assume the ACC begins the 2020-21 season with this roster:

ACC North
Penn State
Pittsburgh
Maryland
Virginia
Virginia Tech
West Virginia
Miami

ACC South
Duke
North Carolina
Wake Forest
NC State
Clemson
Georgia Tech
Florida State

Do Oklahoma and Texas still announce a move to the SEC in 2021?
Do USCLA leave the PAC and announce a move to the B1G in 2022?
Are we facing a P2 in 2024 and beyond or are teams still spread out enough to maintain a P5?
Does the PAC-12 still exist with most of the same members?
Does the Big 12 fall apart in the 2010s when Texas leaves for the ACC?

True answer: we'll never know.

Speculative answer: look at the SEC. Arkansas wasn't as glamorous an add as Texas A&M, Texas, or Oklahoma were, but they were a solid addition to the SEC and they brought in an established rivalry with Ole Miss. (Just for Just Joe, here's the link proving Arkansas had a history with Ole Miss prior to SEC admission:

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/pla...ississippi )

WVU would have brought at least three rivalries in conference (Black Diamond Trophy w/ Virginia Tech, the Schwarzwalder Trophy w/ Syracuse, and the Backyard Brawl w/ Pittsburgh). At least two of those are must-see tv if not all three, IMO, so that definitely would have helped the ACC in terms of getting more engaged viewership, IMO.
Penn State may or may not have been lured in by WVU, but PSU & WVU have a history as well.
https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/pla...t-virginia

As for Texas, I have a source who has told me in the past that Texas was the ACC's for the taking, but the ACC foolishly turned them down.

ACC probably would have done the deal with Notre Dame anyway because I believe it was at Pittsburgh's insistence. I can't prove that, but ND olympics were added around the same time as Pitt was added, if memory serves me well.

Arkansas was coming off a conference championship in football, a final four, and a CWS appearance the year before.

(01-17-2024 05:07 PM)Garrettabc Wrote:  I did not know BC did so much behind the scenes with the first BE raid. I got new respect for them.

There’s a reason BC is nicknamed Fredo by the big east fanbase.

I always find it humorous when people think the big east would give BC a life line if the acc implodes. The old big east school would love to see BC rot in hell for eternity.

The big mistake the ACC made was not including Miami in the invitation to FSU in 1990. I believe Bowden lobbied on the Hurricanes behalf. An invite would've gotten the ACC to 10 schools, given it instant football credibility and would've put it in a better negotiating position with respect to media contracts beginning in the 1990s to the early 2010s. They could've added VPI and Cuse in the early 2000s followed by BC, RU, Pitt and WVU before UMD got the itch to leave. Perhaps UMD would've chosen to stay.

(01-17-2024 07:48 PM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  The big mistake the ACC made was not including Miami in the invitation to FSU in 1990. I believe Bowden lobbied on the Hurricanes behalf. An invite would've gotten the ACC to 10 schools, given it instant football credibility and would've put it in a better negotiating position with respect to media contracts beginning in the 1990s to the early 2010s. They could've added VPI and Cuse in the early 2000s followed by BC, RU, Pitt and WVU before UMD got the itch to leave. Perhaps UMD would've chosen to stay.

The ACC's football clout would have been through the roof with UM of the 1990s-early 2000s. Probably should have expanded to 12 right away and had our own ACCCG.

(01-17-2024 04:04 PM)Eagle78 Wrote:  

(01-17-2024 03:34 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(01-17-2024 01:08 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(01-17-2024 12:38 PM)Just Joe Wrote:  WVU instead of BC does nothing long term to stabilize the conference.

Penn St wasn’t a decision, they never would’ve left the Big Ten. It’s fantasy.

ACC wanted Texas, who decided they preferred staying in the reworked Bi 12.

The Big 12 would’ve happily taken ND non-football.

ACC would be where it is today with minor differences.

Yep. I think that Swofford did a fantastic job taking the ACC to its current #3 or 3A position. They were always a distant 2nd to the SEC in the SE. You don't need Rankings, TV numbers, or Athletic Budgets though, just look at Stadium Capacity. The ACC has 2 schools with over 70k capacity, while the SEC has 9 (soon to be 11). The next-to-last stadium capacity in the SEC is 61k (with avg attendance at Kentucky 60.5k over the past 2 years btw). Kentucky would in fact be a strong #4 in attendance if they were in the ACC.

Looking at the above data, the ACC was always vulnerable to SEC poaching, and Swofford did a good job of keeping the Conference strong and intact for so long.

I think a lot of people are forgetting at the turn of the century Miami was fielding some of the most talented teams of ALL TIME. FSU had recently won a natty over another new addition in VaTech. Carolina was coming off an incredibly successful decade, and everyone knew Clemson was serious about football. Had Miami kept up some steam and not lost at the last second to Carolina in 2004* (or they just fired Bunting after his 2-10 disaster), the Heels end up with the Ol' Ball Coach and hopefully pick somebody better than Fedora when he retires.

Alas, success of a program still mattered regarding expansion at the time, but there was a turning of the tide into the dreaded "market addition". This is how BC got in with some insistence from their buddy (sic), Miami. Syracuse would have been a better option because they were putting out some of the more competitive teams in the Big East.

I don't think it necessary changes too much in history, but I doubt the ACC adds BC and Pitt a decade later. Perhaps Pitt replaces Maryland in this scenario.




* I'm going on a tangent: Carl Torbush (RIP), the architect of the last time Mack had a formidable defense in Chapel Hill was prematurely fired after his third season in which the team went 6-5. In his only three years he won 16 games, which included the 1999 3-win disaster when QB Ron Curry was knocked out for the season.

Enter Bunting, who in his first season won 8 games and beat Auburn in the Peach Bowl with Torbush's guys. Bunting proceeds to win a combined 5 games the next two seasons and is famous for keeping Willie Parker on the bench. So Bunting wins only 13 games his first three seasons. There were already rumblings of Spurrier, but no no no. Give the former player another year. They bumble out a victory over then #4 Miami and he's extended, Carolina passes on Spurrier who goes down south to coach the chickens. Heels win 6 games and lose the bowl game to BC (lol). Bunting is around TWO more seasons and wins 8 games total.

Miami not only ruined their own football, they damn well ruined ours!

Since football was driving the bus, BC was clearly the superior team compared to SU if W-L records are the criteria. Below is a 10-year snapshot that includes the 5 years prior to the 2005 ACC addition of BC and the 5 years after. SU enjoyed a better record in only 2 of those 11 years.

YEAR BC SU
2000 7-5 6-5
2001 8-4 10-3
2002 9-4 4-8
2003 8-5 6-6
2004 9-3 6-6
2005 9-3 1-10
2006 10-3 4-8
2007 11-3 2-10
2008 9-5 3-9
2009 8-5 4-8
2010 7-6 8-5

Expansion occurred in 2003, so we should be looking at the years leading up to then. But you're right—I was thinking of the mid-late 90's when Syracuse was routinely ranked in the top-25. They did finish with 10 wins in 2001 as you mentioned.

My point is I don't think the ACC invites BC and Pitt in 2012 if they already have Syracuse and that's two less shares to pay out. BC came into the ACC very strong and can hold their own, unfortunately that doesn't matter anymore.

(01-17-2024 04:18 PM)ccbfan Wrote:  I think a lot of you are forgetting why the ACC expanded in 2003 and what happened.

1. It was to get Miami. Miami was a USC level program back in a the day. Lots of media hype and on field performance to back it up.

2. To get a conference championship game which the NCAA required 12 teams back them.

Initially it was Miami, BC, and Syracuse. BC was the one from the Big East side that did all the ground work to make it happen. Miami was leaning toward leaving and Syracuse was kinda eh.

When the move was announced and the vote was going to be cast the Virginia legislature told UVA they have to vote no unless Va Tech was invited. Somehow only Va Tech and Miami was invited. At that point ACC tried to get the NCAA to allow a championship with only 11 teams. The NCAA said no.

At that point a battle for that the 12th spot occurred which BC won because unlike Syracuse who was kinda eh about the move, BC was doing all the grunt work.

The ACC had been in contact with Miami regarding membership for the better part of the 90's. This was no secret and even the BE commissioner admitted it.

As to why BC didn't get in: Carolina and Duke were against it. I'm pretty sure they were against anything except maybe Miami-only after initially saying no. A couple other voted with Carolina/Duke and were swayed. Virginia and another.

(01-17-2024 04:18 PM)ccbfan Wrote:  I think a lot of you are forgetting why the ACC expanded in 2003 and what happened.

1. It was to get Miami. Miami was a USC level program back in a the day. Lots of media hype and on field performance to back it up.

2. To get a conference championship game which the NCAA required 12 teams back them.

Initially it was Miami, BC, and Syracuse. BC was the one from the Big East side that did all the ground work to make it happen. Miami was leaning toward leaving and Syracuse was kinda eh.

When the move was announced and the vote was going to be cast the Virginia legislature told UVA they have to vote no unless Va Tech was invited. Somehow only Va Tech and Miami was invited. At that point ACC tried to get the NCAA to allow a championship with only 11 teams. The NCAA said no.

At that point a battle for that the 12th spot occurred which BC won because unlike Syracuse who was kinda eh about the move, BC was doing all the grunt work.

IIRC BC’s addition was also delayed because, after they weren’t invited at the same time as Miami and VPI, UConn and the Big East tried to sue and it made things awkward. It would also be interesting if they’d added two to four of Cuse, Pitt, WVU, Rutgers, Louisville, Cincy, TCU, Houston, SMU, and UConn in 2005 to get to 14 or 16.

(01-17-2024 04:27 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  I'd say that he got lukewarm commitment from Day, but he was hardly "run off". I read originally that he wanted more NIL and tOSU wasn't willing to give it after that "horrible" season in 2023.

Tressel, Meyer and Day have spoiled tOSU. In fact, in the past 21 non-covid seasons, they've only had fewer than 10 wins twice. Never mind Michigan, tOSU can't outspend PSU, USC and Oregon in this Brave New NIL World. They think the sky is falling today when they lose one game by 6 points to the eventual National Champs? Just wait.

As I said, he wasn't going to start. They told him, he left. He looked lost at times throughout the season. Had they lost by 6 to anybody else then you wouldn't hear the fan base screaming like they are now.

The ACC should have forgotten East coast options in 2011 and went after Tex, OK, Mizzou and Tex A&M. Throw in TT and OkSt for politics.

ACC West
Tex, A&M, TT, OK, OkSt, Mizzou

ACC south
FSU, Miami, Clem, GT, UNC, Duke

ACC north
VT, VA, NCSU, Wake, BC, MD

Big 12 and Big East football merge under the Big 12 Umbrella

Cuse, Pitt, Lou, WV, UConn, Cincy, Rut, USF
Iowa St, Kan, KSU, Bay, TCU

Neb to Big Ten, Col/Utah to PAC-12

(01-17-2024 12:21 PM)TerpsvilleMayor Wrote:  The ACC was the 2nd best FBS football conference during the 2004-05 season. It started the season with five preseason AP top-25 teams (Clemson, Florida State, Maryland, Miami, Virginia) and ended the season with four ranked teams (Florida State, Miami, Virginia, Virginia Tech). The conference was 2nd in SOS and in win percentage. The realignment decisions made earlier in the decade aimed at bringing football legitimacy to a conference known for its basketball seemed to have paid off.

What if John Swofford and the 11 member schools doubled-down on the football goals? One could argue that the origin story to the situation the ACC finds itself in today began in 2005 when they added Boston College for the Boston tv market.

What if the ACC…

• Added West Virginia from the Big East (2005) - The ACC academics wouldn’t have like this but sometimes you have to hold your nose in business. Small state but their fan base has always been rabid. Existing football rivalries with multiple ACC teams. In 2005, Rich Rod had a 11-win WVU team rolling in the Sugar Bowl. This would have gotten the league to 12 members.
• Added Penn State from the Big Ten (2011) - This move would have made a splash in the CFB landscape. PSU had been looking eastward before joining the Big Ten. Pre-scandal Joe Pa still had sway there to encourage exploration. The Big Ten’s media contract wrapped up in 2010. The timing would have worked. Btw…yes, the scandal broke in November 2011 but PSU likely would have joined by July 1 of this year.
• Added Texas from the Big 12 (2011) - Most of you will likely remember Texas to the ACC sort of almost happened in 2011 because the Big 12 took issue with the Longhorn Network but apparently the ACC did not. LHN was already underperforming before the ACCN launched, so there probably would’ve been any long term issues there. Also, another splashy move in the CFB world that would have eyes on the ACC.
• Does not approve Notre Dame’s application for non-football membership (2013) - The ACC’s position is we’d gladly have you, but we’d require all of you.
  

With 14 football teams and brands like FSU, Miami, VT (w/ Beamer), Clemson (w/ Dabo), Texas, and Penn State, the ACC would have been a solid football conference and would likely have had better media revenue than it had at the time. With more money and more nearby conference mates like PSU, Pitt, and VT, Maryland either thinks much harder about bolting for the B1G when it came calling in 2013 or just flat out says no. Even if Maryland did leave, the ACC could call up Louisville as it did.

So, let’s assume the ACC begins the 2020-21 season with this roster:

ACC North
Penn State
Pittsburgh
Maryland
Virginia
Virginia Tech
West Virginia
Miami

ACC South
Duke
North Carolina
Wake Forest
NC State
Clemson
Georgia Tech
Florida State

Do Oklahoma and Texas still announce a move to the SEC in 2021?
Do USCLA leave the PAC and announce a move to the B1G in 2022?
Are we facing a P2 in 2024 and beyond or are teams still spread out enough to maintain a P5?
Does the PAC-12 still exist with most of the same members?
Does the Big 12 fall apart in the 2010s when Texas leaves for the ACC?

Penn State wouldn't have stayed, and even with them they would not have had Big 10 $$$$$$.

(01-17-2024 07:03 PM)ccbfan Wrote:  

(01-17-2024 05:07 PM)Garrettabc Wrote:  I did not know BC did so much behind the scenes with the first BE raid. I got new respect for them.

There’s a reason BC is nicknamed Fredo by the big east fanbase.

I always find it humorous when people think the big east would give BC a life line if the acc implodes. The old big east school would love to see BC rot in hell for eternity.

Ah yes, the Fredo analogy. Funny how within a few short years from that time many other schools followed BC out in a similar fashion - including media reports where schools voted down a media contract and then exited shortly thereafter.

Shortly after the ACC took Miami and VT (you know, VT, the school that one day was a plaintiff in the ACC suit and the next day jumped ship for the ACC - but BC was somehow the traitor...got it!!), the remaining Big East football schools agreed to form their own all-sports conference, thus breaking away from the Big East BB schools. BC agreed to lead the effort to get this done.

Within a few months, the BE football schools determined that such a split was not in their interests and decided to stay together with the BB schools. BC at the time declared this not unacceptable to them as they believed the hybrid conference was inherently unsustainable (which one could reasonably surmise that events ultimately proved that this was the correct position) and they would reach back to the ACC to see if there was any interest. There was, and the rest is history

And yes, the feeling is mutual between many in the BC fan base and the fan bases of the old plaintiffs. (That said, most BC fans are not upset with what VT did at the time as most recognize that they did what any other school would have done in that situation.)

Eagle78: WTH happened to Syracuse? Where did they go wrong?

(01-17-2024 12:21 PM)TerpsvilleMayor Wrote:  The ACC was the 2nd best FBS football conference during the 2004-05 season. It started the season with five preseason AP top-25 teams (Clemson, Florida State, Maryland, Miami, Virginia) and ended the season with four ranked teams (Florida State, Miami, Virginia, Virginia Tech). The conference was 2nd in SOS and in win percentage. The realignment decisions made earlier in the decade aimed at bringing football legitimacy to a conference known for its basketball seemed to have paid off.

What if John Swofford and the 11 member schools doubled-down on the football goals? One could argue that the origin story to the situation the ACC finds itself in today began in 2005 when they added Boston College for the Boston tv market.

What if the ACC…

• Added West Virginia from the Big East (2005) - The ACC academics wouldn’t have like this but sometimes you have to hold your nose in business. Small state but their fan base has always been rabid. Existing football rivalries with multiple ACC teams. In 2005, Rich Rod had a 11-win WVU team rolling in the Sugar Bowl. This would have gotten the league to 12 members.
• Added Penn State from the Big Ten (2011) - This move would have made a splash in the CFB landscape. PSU had been looking eastward before joining the Big Ten. Pre-scandal Joe Pa still had sway there to encourage exploration. The Big Ten’s media contract wrapped up in 2010. The timing would have worked. Btw…yes, the scandal broke in November 2011 but PSU likely would have joined by July 1 of this year.
• Added Texas from the Big 12 (2011) - Most of you will likely remember Texas to the ACC sort of almost happened in 2011 because the Big 12 took issue with the Longhorn Network but apparently the ACC did not. LHN was already underperforming before the ACCN launched, so there probably would’ve been any long term issues there. Also, another splashy move in the CFB world that would have eyes on the ACC.
• Does not approve Notre Dame’s application for non-football membership (2013) - The ACC’s position is we’d gladly have you, but we’d require all of you.
  

With 14 football teams and brands like FSU, Miami, VT (w/ Beamer), Clemson (w/ Dabo), Texas, and Penn State, the ACC would have been a solid football conference and would likely have had better media revenue than it had at the time. With more money and more nearby conference mates like PSU, Pitt, and VT, Maryland either thinks much harder about bolting for the B1G when it came calling in 2013 or just flat out says no. Even if Maryland did leave, the ACC could call up Louisville as it did.

So, let’s assume the ACC begins the 2020-21 season with this roster:

ACC North
Penn State
Pittsburgh
Maryland
Virginia
Virginia Tech
West Virginia
Miami

ACC South
Duke
North Carolina
Wake Forest
NC State
Clemson
Georgia Tech
Florida State

Do Oklahoma and Texas still announce a move to the SEC in 2021?
Do USCLA leave the PAC and announce a move to the B1G in 2022?
Are we facing a P2 in 2024 and beyond or are teams still spread out enough to maintain a P5?
Does the PAC-12 still exist with most of the same members?
Does the Big 12 fall apart in the 2010s when Texas leaves for the ACC?

PSU and Texas were long shot even back then.

The best football schools the ACC could have gotten in 2005-2011 were WVU, Pitt (instead of PSU) and TCU (instead of UT).

There was no game-changing move on the board in the early aughts that stood as much as a 50% chance of happening. Still, the ACC explored the available moves.

1. Penn State
2. Notre Dame
3. Texas

The league got what it was able to get from that, and here we are.

(01-17-2024 03:34 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(01-17-2024 01:08 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(01-17-2024 12:38 PM)Just Joe Wrote:  WVU instead of BC does nothing long term to stabilize the conference.

Penn St wasn’t a decision, they never would’ve left the Big Ten. It’s fantasy.

ACC wanted Texas, who decided they preferred staying in the reworked Bi 12.

The Big 12 would’ve happily taken ND non-football.

ACC would be where it is today with minor differences.

Yep. I think that Swofford did a fantastic job taking the ACC to its current #3 or 3A position. They were always a distant 2nd to the SEC in the SE. You don't need Rankings, TV numbers, or Athletic Budgets though, just look at Stadium Capacity. The ACC has 2 schools with over 70k capacity, while the SEC has 9 (soon to be 11). The next-to-last stadium capacity in the SEC is 61k (with avg attendance at Kentucky 60.5k over the past 2 years btw). Kentucky would in fact be a strong #4 in attendance if they were in the ACC.

Looking at the above data, the ACC was always vulnerable to SEC poaching, and Swofford did a good job of keeping the Conference strong and intact for so long.

I think a lot of people are forgetting at the turn of the century Miami was fielding some of the most talented teams of ALL TIME. FSU had recently won a natty over another new addition in VaTech. Carolina was coming off an incredibly successful decade, and everyone knew Clemson was serious about football. Had Miami kept up some steam and not lost at the last second to Carolina in 2004* (or they just fired Bunting after his 2-10 disaster), the Heels end up with the Ol' Ball Coach and hopefully pick somebody better than Fedora when he retires.

Alas, success of a program still mattered regarding expansion at the time, but there was a turning of the tide into the dreaded "market addition". This is how BC got in with some insistence from their buddy (sic), Miami. Syracuse would have been a better option because they were putting out some of the more competitive teams in the Big East.

I don't think it necessary changes too much in history, but I doubt the ACC adds BC and Pitt a decade later. Perhaps Pitt replaces Maryland in this scenario.




* I'm going on a tangent: Carl Torbush (RIP), the architect of the last time Mack had a formidable defense in Chapel Hill was prematurely fired after his third season in which the team went 6-5. In his only three years he won 16 games, which included the 1999 3-win disaster when QB Ron Curry was knocked out for the season.

Enter Bunting, who in his first season won 8 games and beat Auburn in the Peach Bowl with Torbush's guys. Bunting proceeds to win a combined 5 games the next two seasons and is famous for keeping Willie Parker on the bench. So Bunting wins only 13 games his first three seasons. There were already rumblings of Spurrier, but no no no. Give the former player another year. They bumble out a victory over then #4 Miami and he's extended, Carolina passes on Spurrier who goes down south to coach the chickens. Heels win 6 games and lose the bowl game to BC (lol). Bunting is around TWO more seasons and wins 8 games total.

Miami not only ruined their own football, they damn well ruined ours!

The ACC was slow to react. Basketball TV money was pretty good compared to football and the ACC was the best paid conference in the early 90s. Value quickly shifted to football and the ACC didn't adjust.

(01-17-2024 07:48 PM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  The big mistake the ACC made was not including Miami in the invitation to FSU in 1990. I believe Bowden lobbied on the Hurricanes behalf. An invite would've gotten the ACC to 10 schools, given it instant football credibility and would've put it in a better negotiating position with respect to media contracts beginning in the 1990s to the early 2010s. They could've added VPI and Cuse in the early 2000s followed by BC, RU, Pitt and WVU before UMD got the itch to leave. Perhaps UMD would've chosen to stay.

Not sure that an earlier move on Miami changes anything that happens this century. ACC conference payouts were relatively significant in the 1990s, because basketball media revenue actually exceeded football.

The journey towards a P2 is being driven by interest in football at Ohio State, Alabama, Georgia and Michigan. Although I disagree with the doomsday predictions associated with most P2 prognosticators, the ACC didn’t have a realistic shot at a true football blue blood.

(01-23-2024 01:30 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(01-17-2024 03:34 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(01-17-2024 01:08 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(01-17-2024 12:38 PM)Just Joe Wrote:  WVU instead of BC does nothing long term to stabilize the conference.

Penn St wasn’t a decision, they never would’ve left the Big Ten. It’s fantasy.

ACC wanted Texas, who decided they preferred staying in the reworked Bi 12.

The Big 12 would’ve happily taken ND non-football.

ACC would be where it is today with minor differences.

Yep. I think that Swofford did a fantastic job taking the ACC to its current #3 or 3A position. They were always a distant 2nd to the SEC in the SE. You don't need Rankings, TV numbers, or Athletic Budgets though, just look at Stadium Capacity. The ACC has 2 schools with over 70k capacity, while the SEC has 9 (soon to be 11). The next-to-last stadium capacity in the SEC is 61k (with avg attendance at Kentucky 60.5k over the past 2 years btw). Kentucky would in fact be a strong #4 in attendance if they were in the ACC.

Looking at the above data, the ACC was always vulnerable to SEC poaching, and Swofford did a good job of keeping the Conference strong and intact for so long.

I think a lot of people are forgetting at the turn of the century Miami was fielding some of the most talented teams of ALL TIME. FSU had recently won a natty over another new addition in VaTech. Carolina was coming off an incredibly successful decade, and everyone knew Clemson was serious about football. Had Miami kept up some steam and not lost at the last second to Carolina in 2004* (or they just fired Bunting after his 2-10 disaster), the Heels end up with the Ol' Ball Coach and hopefully pick somebody better than Fedora when he retires.

Alas, success of a program still mattered regarding expansion at the time, but there was a turning of the tide into the dreaded "market addition". This is how BC got in with some insistence from their buddy (sic), Miami. Syracuse would have been a better option because they were putting out some of the more competitive teams in the Big East.

I don't think it necessary changes too much in history, but I doubt the ACC adds BC and Pitt a decade later. Perhaps Pitt replaces Maryland in this scenario.




* I'm going on a tangent: Carl Torbush (RIP), the architect of the last time Mack had a formidable defense in Chapel Hill was prematurely fired after his third season in which the team went 6-5. In his only three years he won 16 games, which included the 1999 3-win disaster when QB Ron Curry was knocked out for the season.

Enter Bunting, who in his first season won 8 games and beat Auburn in the Peach Bowl with Torbush's guys. Bunting proceeds to win a combined 5 games the next two seasons and is famous for keeping Willie Parker on the bench. So Bunting wins only 13 games his first three seasons. There were already rumblings of Spurrier, but no no no. Give the former player another year. They bumble out a victory over then #4 Miami and he's extended, Carolina passes on Spurrier who goes down south to coach the chickens. Heels win 6 games and lose the bowl game to BC (lol). Bunting is around TWO more seasons and wins 8 games total.

Miami not only ruined their own football, they damn well ruined ours!

The ACC was slow to react. Basketball TV money was pretty good compared to football and the ACC was the best paid conference in the early 90s. Value quickly shifted to football and the ACC didn't adjust.

Nothing would have changed. There was no avoiding the situation because of the ACC's makeup.

(01-23-2024 02:42 PM)esayem Wrote:  Nothing would have changed. There was no avoiding the situation because of the ACC's makeup.

Yes. The die was already cast when Penn State joined the Big Ten and surprised ACC leaders. The league has been playing catch-up ever since.

The ACC has been resourceful and sometimes aggressive, but it got lapped anyway.