(01-09-2024 04:48 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(01-09-2024 02:48 PM)esayem Wrote:  LOL that was NOT the second best team of all-time.

Yeah. I don't think Michigan was top 20 in the BCS era. I don't see them beating any other BCS/CFP champ except maybe 2007 LSU, 2001 OU and 2000 FSU. There were lots of strong teams this year but no all time elite teams.

In addition to your list, I think they beat:

1998 Tennessee
2002 Ohio State
2014 Ohio State

I think they are in coin flips with:

2010 Auburn (I think they just double Fairley all game and we saw how they had the speed and open field tackling to slow down a Cam-esque player in Milroe)
2013 FSU (They have all FSU's signs like Auburn did but don't collapse at the end of the game)
2019 LSU (I know this is controversial but 2019 LSU SP+ offense was 48.9 and 2021 Ohio State SP+ offense was 47.2, and 2021 Michigan held 2021 Ohio St to 27 points. I think this is a "styles make fights" situation where Michigan is using a defensive style that didn't really exist in 2019 [in CFB anyway] to even up the odds)


I don't think they beat any of the Bama or UGA champ teams though, those teams (especially the Bama winners) are all better versions of what Michigan did this year with a great DL and secondary, but better LB, OL, and WRs. I think they probably lose to a decent amount of runner ups like 2016/18 Bama and 2015 Clemson.

All in all a perfectly average title team imo. Some years you get lucky to get favorable match ups like UW did this year in playing Texas and not Alabama (Bama's secondary being a huge strength), same for Michigan as Texas' excellent run defense and DTs would have challenged Michigan in a way that Washington couldn't.

I think 2005 Texas, 2018 Clemson, 2001 Miami, and 2022 Georgia are the best 4 teams of the past 25 years. The lack of Bama on this list is every other year they lost a game except 2009 (I think Texas wins if Colt isn't injured) and 2020 (I throw that out because COVID). Saban's still the GOAT, and I think his 2012 team was actually his best, minus that first quarter against A&M and Johnny Football.

(01-09-2024 06:37 PM)BeepBeepJeep Wrote:  

(01-09-2024 04:48 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(01-09-2024 02:48 PM)esayem Wrote:  LOL that was NOT the second best team of all-time.

Yeah. I don't think Michigan was top 20 in the BCS era. I don't see them beating any other BCS/CFP champ except maybe 2007 LSU, 2001 OU and 2000 FSU. There were lots of strong teams this year but no all time elite teams.

In addition to your list, I think they beat:

1998 Tennessee
2002 Ohio State
2014 Ohio State

I think they are in coin flips with:

2010 Auburn (I think they just double Fairley all game and we saw how they had the speed and open field tackling to slow down a Cam-esque player in Milroe)
2013 FSU (They have all FSU's signs like Auburn did but don't collapse at the end of the game)
2019 LSU (I know this is controversial but 2019 LSU SP+ offense was 48.9 and 2021 Ohio State SP+ offense was 47.2, and 2021 Michigan held 2021 Ohio St to 27 points. I think this is a "styles make fights" situation where Michigan is using a defensive style that didn't really exist in 2019 [in CFB anyway] to even up the odds)


I don't think they beat any of the Bama or UGA champ teams though, those teams (especially the Bama winners) are all better versions of what Michigan did this year with a great DL and secondary, but better LB, OL, and WRs. I think they probably lose to a decent amount of runner ups like 2016/18 Bama and 2015 Clemson.

All in all a perfectly average title team imo. Some years you get lucky to get favorable match ups like UW did this year in playing Texas and not Alabama (Bama's secondary being a huge strength), same for Michigan as Texas' excellent run defense and DTs would have challenged Michigan in a way that Washington couldn't.

I think 2005 Texas, 2018 Clemson, 2001 Miami, and 2022 Georgia are the best 4 teams of the past 25 years. The lack of Bama on this list is every other year they lost a game except 2009 (I think Texas wins if Colt isn't injured) and 2020 (I throw that out because COVID). Saban's still the GOAT, and I think his 2012 team was actually his best, minus that first quarter against A&M and Johnny Football.

Fair comments.
I do disagree on 2019 LSU. Joe Burrough 2019 was the best college QB I ever saw. Ohio St.'s QB isn't in the same league. Ohio St. isn't anywhere close to as potent as that 2019 LSU team. Burrough could pick apart anyone. He was just amazing to watch.

2010 Auburn is tough to judge. TCU might have had a shot against them. Auburn had a great defensive player but overall a vulnerable defense. But Milroe is no Cam Newton. He had a way to will wins. Cam Newton wasn't Vince Young, but he's the closest thing to him. He was a QB who could just carry his team to a win.

I think people forget just how good the 2000-2002 Miami Hurricanes were. That was the best team I remember watching in my lifetime. Their star was still shining bright in 2004 when bumblin’ Bunting beat them and saved his job—while costing Carolina the Ol’ Ball Coach

(01-09-2024 08:06 PM)esayem Wrote:  I think people forget just how good the 2000-2002 Miami Hurricanes were. That was the best team I remember watching in my lifetime. Their star was still shining bright in 2004 when bumblin’ Bunting beat them and saved his job—while costing Carolina the Ol’ Ball Coach

still remember the end of that Fiesta Bowl in 2002.

(01-09-2024 09:59 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(01-09-2024 08:06 PM)esayem Wrote:  I think people forget just how good the 2000-2002 Miami Hurricanes were. That was the best team I remember watching in my lifetime. Their star was still shining bright in 2004 when bumblin’ Bunting beat them and saved his job—while costing Carolina the Ol’ Ball Coach

still remember the end of that Fiesta Bowl in 2002.

In 2002, Ohio St was the Cinderella underdog defying all odds. That thought is unimaginable today.

This team that barely survived Alabama and, to a lesser extent, Ohio State is the second best of all-time?

They didn't even destroy Washington, they just scored some late TD's to pad the margin of what was otherwise a mostly close game.

(01-09-2024 09:59 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(01-09-2024 08:06 PM)esayem Wrote:  I think people forget just how good the 2000-2002 Miami Hurricanes were. That was the best team I remember watching in my lifetime. Their star was still shining bright in 2004 when bumblin’ Bunting beat them and saved his job—while costing Carolina the Ol’ Ball Coach

still remember the end of that Fiesta Bowl in 2002.

I believe OSU had man child Clarett? He was amazing. Hate that he squandered his talent. Probably wouldn’t happen under NIL.

(01-09-2024 02:48 PM)esayem Wrote:  LOL that was NOT the second best team of all-time.

That is such a ridiculous statement that I am agreeing with esayem.

(01-09-2024 08:06 PM)esayem Wrote:  I think people forget just how good the 2000-2002 Miami Hurricanes were. That was the best team I remember watching in my lifetime. Their star was still shining bright in 2004 when bumblin’ Bunting beat them and saved his job—while costing Carolina the Ol’ Ball Coach

Butch Davis did a great job resurrecting that Miami program from the mire of the mid-late 90s.

They could have won three straight national titles. The 2000 team should have IMO been in the national title game vs Oklahoma, over FSU. Yeah I know Washington Washington Washington but they were the best of those three, IMO.

And the 2002 team lost controversially in OT to Ohio State, and had Larry Coker at the helm, who was IMO riding the fumes.

I definitely have 2001 Miami in my top 5 among the teams that I have seen, going back to the 1970s.

(01-09-2024 02:01 PM)JamesHowell Wrote:  Caveat: There is zero context between years, so the results must be taken as is


1 2018 Clemson .984
2 2023 Michigan .979
3 1971 Nebraska .978
4 2022 Georgia .969
5 1905 Chicago .967
6 2001 Miami (Florida) .965
7 1932 Southern California .964
8 2009 Alabama .964
9 1938 Tennessee .963
10 1991 Washington .961
11 2005 Texas .961
12 2004 Southern California .959
13 2019 Louisiana State .959
14 1905 Yale .959
15 1995 Nebraska .958
16 1972 Southern California .957
17 1974 Oklahoma .956
18 1991 Miami (Florida) .955
19 2016 Alabama .955
20 1930 Alabama .954
21 1987 Miami (Florida) .954
22 2019 Ohio State .954
23 1958 Louisiana State .952
24 2021 Georgia .952
25 2013 Florida State .952

Admittedly biased, but I like the 1991 Canes big over the 1905 Elis with their 160-pound offensive linemen and DB's that "ran" around 5-flat in the 40

(01-10-2024 10:06 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(01-09-2024 08:06 PM)esayem Wrote:  I think people forget just how good the 2000-2002 Miami Hurricanes were. That was the best team I remember watching in my lifetime. Their star was still shining bright in 2004 when bumblin’ Bunting beat them and saved his job—while costing Carolina the Ol’ Ball Coach

Butch Davis did a great job resurrecting that Miami program from the mire of the mid-late 90s.

They could have won three straight national titles. The 2000 team should have IMO been in the national title game vs Oklahoma, over FSU. Yeah I know Washington Washington Washington but they were the best of those three, IMO.

And the 2002 team lost controversially in OT to Ohio State, and had Larry Coker at the helm, who was IMO riding the fumes.

I definitely have 2001 Miami in my top 5 among the teams that I have seen, going back to the 1970s.

I forgot about the controversy, but it showcased a major flaw in the BCS.

• Washington beat Miami and Miami beat FSU

• All finished with one loss

• Florida State gets ranked #2 behind undefeated Oklahoma!

(01-10-2024 10:22 AM)PeteTheChop Wrote:  

(01-09-2024 02:01 PM)JamesHowell Wrote:  Caveat: There is zero context between years, so the results must be taken as is


1 2018 Clemson .984
2 2023 Michigan .979
3 1971 Nebraska .978
4 2022 Georgia .969
5 1905 Chicago .967
6 2001 Miami (Florida) .965
7 1932 Southern California .964
8 2009 Alabama .964
9 1938 Tennessee .963
10 1991 Washington .961
11 2005 Texas .961
12 2004 Southern California .959
13 2019 Louisiana State .959
14 1905 Yale .959
15 1995 Nebraska .958
16 1972 Southern California .957
17 1974 Oklahoma .956
18 1991 Miami (Florida) .955
19 2016 Alabama .955
20 1930 Alabama .954
21 1987 Miami (Florida) .954
22 2019 Ohio State .954
23 1958 Louisiana State .952
24 2021 Georgia .952
25 2013 Florida State .952

Admittedly biased, but I like the 1991 Canes big over the 1905 Elis with their 160-pound offensive linemen and DB's that "ran" around 5-flat in the 40

When comparing teams across time you have to accept you are comparing them against their time. 1971 Nebraska was undoubtably one of the top 5 of all time. Maybe the best. But if you moved them in a time machine to 2023, they wouldn't do as good as 2023 Nebraska did.

This is the least talented team in the CFP era to win a national championship.

https://www.freep.com/story/sports/colle...164921007/

Honestly, it felt like I was watching a quarterfinal on Monday night. The talent just wasn't there on either team. You didn't have a Trevor Lawrence caliber player winning a title (as a freshman). You didn't have Georgia with an NFL defense, or LSU with an NFL offense, or Bama with an entire WR room of first rounders (as well as two first-round QB's) to watch.

I'm going to look back on this Michigan season 10-20-30 years from now and there really is no lasting memory of it. There was nothing magical. It felt nothing like 1997, when you had a Hall-of-Famer / Heisman winner who played both ways for you making every play imaginable. Where your team played 7 games against Top-25 teams, 6 of which were Top-15 at the time of the meeting.

The first two months were unwatchable as a fan. Michigan dominated their first 9 opponents with relative ease. You knew they were going to win, but at the same time you knew none of these opponents were even Top-50 teams. They played a brand of football that was very mistake-free. They were 9-0 and you still had no idea if the team was any good or not (other than they were covering the spreads).

Kudos to both of these teams for winning and getting to the college football pinnacle for the first time in a generation, but as a fan I felt robbed. It was just a really down year for a lot of powerhouses in the sport.

I'm very happy that realignment and playoff expansion is coming, as it wouldn't have resulted in that matchup last night. They're making the sport better. The good teams need to play the other good teams throughout the year (and the committee has to stop punishing good teams just because they lose one game, which they finally did this year).

(01-10-2024 10:22 AM)PeteTheChop Wrote:  

(01-09-2024 02:01 PM)JamesHowell Wrote:  Caveat: There is zero context between years, so the results must be taken as is


1 2018 Clemson .984
2 2023 Michigan .979
3 1971 Nebraska .978
4 2022 Georgia .969
5 1905 Chicago .967
6 2001 Miami (Florida) .965
7 1932 Southern California .964
8 2009 Alabama .964
9 1938 Tennessee .963
10 1991 Washington .961
11 2005 Texas .961
12 2004 Southern California .959
13 2019 Louisiana State .959
14 1905 Yale .959
15 1995 Nebraska .958
16 1972 Southern California .957
17 1974 Oklahoma .956
18 1991 Miami (Florida) .955
19 2016 Alabama .955
20 1930 Alabama .954
21 1987 Miami (Florida) .954
22 2019 Ohio State .954
23 1958 Louisiana State .952
24 2021 Georgia .952
25 2013 Florida State .952

Admittedly biased, but I like the 1991 Canes big over the 1905 Elis with their 160-pound offensive linemen and DB's that "ran" around 5-flat in the 40

You have to account for how they dominated their era, not the composition of their roster and how it would compete today. Most players today are bigger, faster and stronger than even 30 years ago since nutrition and workout programs have become more advanced (not to mention the style of play of the game and what coaches are looking for in a recruit).

It feels wrong to call this Michigan team one of the best of all time.

Yeah, they won and they were good enough to beat everyone they played. But do we also think this was one of the greatest Alabama teams of all time? Because a competent center and Alabama would have won that game.

(01-09-2024 03:45 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(01-09-2024 03:41 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(01-09-2024 03:32 PM)gwelymernans Wrote:  

(01-09-2024 02:01 PM)JamesHowell Wrote:  Caveat: There is zero context between years, so the results must be taken as is


1 2018 Clemson .984
2 2023 Michigan .979
3 1971 Nebraska .978
4 2022 Georgia .969
5 1905 Chicago .967
6 2001 Miami (Florida) .965
7 1932 Southern California .964
8 2009 Alabama .964
9 1938 Tennessee .963
10 1991 Washington .961
11 2005 Texas .961
12 2004 Southern California .959
13 2019 Louisiana State .959
14 1905 Yale .959
15 1995 Nebraska .958
16 1972 Southern California .957
17 1974 Oklahoma .956
18 1991 Miami (Florida) .955
19 2016 Alabama .955
20 1930 Alabama .954
21 1987 Miami (Florida) .954
22 2019 Ohio State .954
23 1958 Louisiana State .952
24 2021 Georgia .952
25 2013 Florida State .952

Hooey... Coach Stagg and the Maroons would have ran roughshod over the johnny-come-latelys in your top 4. They shut out 10 of 11 opponents, including UM which was riding a 56 game winning streak going into the 'game of the century'.

1905 also had two top-15 teams of all-time in Chicago and Yale, which none of the other years can say. The quality on the field today pales in comparison to 1905 -- those games were a bloodbath.

You should have seen the St. Margarets School in 1905. The Flying Margarets were something to behold!

You know why Michigan sings about being "Champions of the West". They couldn't hold a candle to Yale.

Billingsley was one of the BCS computers. Keeps an all time list of final ratings. This Michigan team #5 all time...
1 2019 LSU 408.051
2 2020 Alabama 393.508
3 2018 Clemson 391.426
4 2022 Georgia 391.236
5 2023 Michigan 385.611

(01-12-2024 02:39 PM)stever20 Wrote:  Billingsley was one of the BCS computers. Keeps an all time list of final ratings. This Michigan team #5 all time...
1 2019 LSU 408.051
2 2020 Alabama 393.508
3 2018 Clemson 391.426
4 2022 Georgia 391.236
5 2023 Michigan 385.611

Since the BCS era or in history? If it's in history, I have a hard time taking it seriously.